Cyanide: What it does to the reefs

[keethrax]

Well lets make it perfectly clear before I even bother.
I am not going to tell you the sources that get me the information.

In other words, you're going to make it up. Right. Thanks for the warning.

 

[naesco]

Well lets make it perfectly clear before I even bother.
I am not going to tell you the sources that get me the information.

In other words, you're going to make it up. Right. Thanks for the warning.

I can tell you are one of those industry types that believes that Farhenheit 4928 is going to somehow disappear :roll: and that cyanide does no damage to the reefs and the critters that live thereon.

But for the benefit of those who are genuinely interested, I will get the information anyway.

 

[Anonymous]

it's Fahrenheit 451 , silly

 

[keethrax]

But for the benefit of those who are genuinely interested, I will get the information anyway.

Except that I am one of those who are genuinely interested, as are most of the rest of the people here. If they werent' interested, they wouldn't be here. Unfortunately for you we're also smart enough to know better than to trust somebody with a history of making stuff up unless they can post verifiable information. Which you have already said you won't (because you can't) do.

If you can't grasp that numbers without a source are worhtless, than you are a complete fool.

 

[MaryHM]

Good grief. So now you're going to post numbers with no sources. Knowing your position, I can guess what your "statistics" will be. So can everyone else here. If you can't name the source, don't bother with the numbers. I invite anyone to come and witness 3 shipments from the same supplier at my facility to get an understanding of where my DOA stats come from. I say this because I stand behind what I say. You, Wayne, can't stand behind ANYTHING you say because it's all based on sheer silliness. You cling to what you think are catchy little buzzwords:

REEFORM

THE BILL

FARENHEIT (whichever set of number keys you happen to hit in a row)

It's silliness. Dribble. The rantings of someone with no experience but a truly pathetic desire to be included. Take me or Jenn or Horge up on our offers to see what we do in person. Get firsthand knowledge, Wayne. Not second hand rantings or your own delusional conclusions based on nothing but pure emotion. Until then, don't ever expect to be taken seriously in here.

 

[naesco]

Kleenex the source for the information on the death rates from the squirt of the cyanide poison to the death by cyanide in the hobbyists tanks is
Dr. Peter Rubec.

Dr. Peter Rubec is the world renouned expert on cyanide.

He has published numerous scientific articles on the subject of cyanide and has lectured to both government and private organizations on the subject.

READ HIS STUDY *******!

I have been asked to check out one or two LFS in the Vancouver and if sucessful will post it on this board. I can care less what you think.

 

[MaryHM]

death rates from the squirt of the cyanide poison to the death by cyanide in the hobbyists tanks is
Dr. Peter Rubec.

Wayne- Can you please tell me how Peter arrived at data for the loss of cyanide caught fish in hobbyist tanks?

 

[Anonymous]

Kleenex the source for the information on the death rates from the squirt of the cyanide poison to the death by cyanide in the hobbyists tanks is
Dr. Peter Rubec.

Dr. Peter Rubec is the world renouned expert on cyanide.

He has published numerous scientific articles on the subject of cyanide and has lectured to both government and private organizations on the subject.

READ HIS STUDY butthole!

I have been asked to check out one or two LFS in the Vancouver and if sucessful will post it on this board. I can care less what you think.

quoted for archiving :wink:

i can't wait to hear peter's response about your statement re: hobbyist's tanks

 

[keethrax]

Kleenex the source for the information on the death rates from the squirt of the cyanide poison to the death by cyanide in the hobbyists tanks is
Dr. Peter Rubec.

Dr. Peter Rubec is the world renouned expert on cyanide.

He has published numerous scientific articles on the subject of cyanide and has lectured to both government and private organizations on the subject.

READ HIS STUDY butthole!

I have been asked to check out one or two LFS in the Vancouver and if sucessful will post it on this board. I can care less what you think.

Now Wayne, I know you're smart enough to not call people names. I let it slide once, but you know full well my board name is not kleenex. You also know full well that calling someon a butthole is against the board rules. And has been reported as such.

You'll note I never called you anything, I called someon who doesnt' believe in the need to cite sources a fool. If you choose to apply that to yourself, well that's no concern of mine.

So which study would that be? You've at least given me a start, which I appreciate. I'd happily read it, except you still haven't told me what to read!

See what you seem to miss is that lot's of people here would *gladly* eliminate cyanide capture should a reliable method and implementaion plan be available. But it's often not that simple, and to eliminate cyanide fishing without a replacement is likely to do ev en more harm to the reef (if we're assuming only removing cyanide use in MO and not across the board)

I haven't seene a single person here claim that cyanide does no damage to the reefs or the fish, yet you keep harping on it like we don't know that.

The simple fact is, that if the countries involved don't value their own reefs highly enough to do somehting about it, nothing we do is likely to do anythign more than salve our consciences while at the same time possibly removing one more incentive to maintina the reefs, thus accelerating damage.

Are the cyanide collectors doing damage? Certainly! But, and its a big but, if the MO industry were to totally vanish overnight (thus no cyanide damage to the reefs from us) would that halpo the reefs in the least? Doubtful. You'd still have cyanide fishing of the larger predatory fish, in larger doses (larger fish, plus survival isn't an issue) and removing apex predators in addition to the increased cyanide damage. At the moment the guys doing the capture of MO (including those using cyanide) are the best chance we have at getting someone *in the collecting country* to care about the reefs, as the reefs are providing there livlihood.

 

[naesco]

Putting the blame on other industries is not enough.
Clean up your own industry first. And second clean up the damage your industry has done.
I very sorry to say that you are typical of industry. You sit on your hands and do nothing.
Why don't to go to MACNA. Get up and tell those who are responsible for the cyanide trade that they are risking the closure of your livlihood and my hobby.
Point your finger at them. Tell them enough is enough. Be part of a reeform industry group that is going to do something.
If you don't you are out of business. Have you thought of that lately?

 

[naesco]

death rates from the squirt of the cyanide poison to the death by cyanide in the hobbyists tanks is
Dr. Peter Rubec.

Wayne- Can you please tell me how Peter arrived at data for the loss of cyanide caught fish in hobbyist tanks?

Ask Dr. Rubec this question.

For the benefit of those hobbyists, industry and government types here is my summary. I read the study some time ago.I am sure this extensive study is available from Dr. Rubec for those who would like to read it as well

Dr. Rubec hired an individual who telephoned numerous lfs. The result which showed extremely high DOA results became part of the study Dr. Rubec published.

 

[naesco]

Mary
Capital letters, large and coloured font. How novel and what a great idea

FARHENHEIT 4928


Reform your industry before it is too late.

 

[MaryHM]

But what I think both of you (Wayne & Peter) fail to understand is that DOA does not equal cyanide use. There is no way to prove which of the DOA fish where captured with cyanide and which weren't. Using this paper to link cyanide use with mortality rates seems like a leap to me.

You're going to be at MACNA, Wayne?? I assume you will since you're telling others to do it. Or can you only tout your position from behind a monitor?

 

[MaryHM]

Reform your industry before it is too late.

Too late for what, Wayne? You're very fond of telling everyone what they should or shouldn't do. What are YOU doing?

 

[devils advocate]

Wayne,

Then tell us, what have you done other than critically blast others on this board. All your efforts are cloaked in secrecy. What have you done in Canada? Anything??? What would seem to make more sense is to start in your own back yard and clean that up instead of poking your head over the top of the fence and yelling at your neighbor to clean his yard.

I can't wait the hear your results of DOA reports from a number of your local stores who will be more than happy, I'm sure, to release these numbers to you, if they know them themselves.

 

[keethrax]

Putting the blame on other industries is not enough.
Clean up your own industry first. And second clean up the damage your industry has done.
I very sorry to say that you are typical of industry. You sit on your hands and do nothing.
Why don't to go to MACNA. Get up and tell those who are responsible for the cyanide trade that they are risking the closure of your livlihood and my hobby.
Point your finger at them. Tell them enough is enough. Be part of a reeform industry group that is going to do something.
If you don't you are out of business. Have you thought of that lately?

All that rehtoric and still haven't cited the actual study? Boy, it must be tough to find if even you can't name the study you get your "numbers" from.

Let's see a reference. Yes I could *probably* find it on my own, but how would I know it's the same one bein referred to jsut becasue it has the same author? So I still wouldn't know if I was reading the right one.

This isn't a comlicated request. I'm probably the closest thing to an ally you have around here, and you've abused me by hurling insults, names, and never giving a straight answer to a question. I've provided you with every opportunity to prove what everyone says about you wrong, as it is an issue I care about, and yet you hide behind answering questions with questions, and never citing your sources.

 

[Anonymous]

Putting the blame on other industries is not enough.
Clean up your own industry first. And second clean up the damage your industry has done.
I very sorry to say that you are typical of industry. You sit on your hands and do nothing.
Why don't to go to MACNA. Get up and tell those who are responsible for the cyanide trade that they are risking the closure of your livlihood and my hobby.
Point your finger at them. Tell them enough is enough. Be part of a reeform industry group that is going to do something.
If you don't you are out of business. Have you thought of that lately?

it's very impolite to point

 

[kylen]

I'm glad to see that nothing has changed. Still entertaining as ever.

When you get those figures from the local stores, I would interested in seeing them, as well as the stores names (in confidence of course). I would be very surprised than one, let alone two stores, actually keeps DOA records.

 

[PeterIMA]

The study that Wayne (Naesco) is referring to was the telephone survey Frank Lallo conducted of 300 retailers in 1997. I referred to the main result in my paper titled "Net-caught cyanide-free fish for the marine aquarium trade." published in the scientific journal Aquarium Science and Conservation 3: 37-51 (2001).

I have a new paper that will be published as part of the Marine Ornamentals 'O4 Proceedings titled "Monitoring The Chain-Of-Custody To Reduce Mortality of Net-Caught Fish In The Aquarium Trade". This paper summarizes results from Frank Lallo's study, and reviews the scientific literature concerning factors influencing post-harvest mortality.

I have little (almost no data) concerning mortalities in hobbyists' tanks, although I believe such a study should be conducted. Hobbyists probably are the ones who lose the most fish from cyanide and poor handling and trasport practices. Unfortunately, they don't seem to complain about it. They blame themselves instead of the aquarium trade that supplies fish that die in their tanks.

Peter

 

[PeterIMA]

The study that Wayne (Naesco) is referring to was the telephone survey Frank Lallo conducted of 300 retailers in 1997. I referred to the main result in my paper titled "Net-caught cyanide-free fish for the marine aquarium trade." published in the scientific journal Aquarium Science and Conservation 3: 37-51 (2001).

Vitz seems to want to belittle Frank's efforts. That is unfortunate. Frank is a marine hobbyist. He put two years into the study and thousands of dollars of his own funds in telephone calls. He gained the trust of over 300 retailers (something most scientists like myself could not do). He tracked about 25 shipments per store. Hence, he obtained information on individual shipments and individual species per shipment. There is so much data that I am still analyzing it.

While Frank agrees that a more recent study is needed, lets not belittle Frank's efforts. It shows what one individual can do that cares about the future of our hobby. His intent and mine are a sustainable hobby. Hobbyists should be able to buy fish that don't die from their retail stores. Retailers also should expect that the fish they buy are properly handled and properly collected so that they don't die.

If the MAC can deliver fish that live, I will support them. So far, that is not the case. Hence, we must deal with the other Case (Ed Case and H.R. 4928).

So, while you guys bash Naesco, your hobby/business and the fish supply that supports it is threatened with closure because you failed to do something (anything will do). How about supporting the net-training fund with AMDA?

Peter