A
Anonymous
Guest
horge":14amcl0p said:
...I just had schnapps shoot out my nose!!!
:lol:
Thanks, horge...there go my sinuses...
Peace,
Chip
Cyanide: What it does to the reefs
- Thread starter naesco
- Start date
...I just had schnapps shoot out my nose!!!
:lol:
Thanks, horge...there go my sinuses...
Peace,
Chip
A
Anonymous
Guest
you're too young to be drinkin that shtuff anyway
serves ya right
serves ya right
A
Anonymous
Guest
vitz":wz924al5 said:you're too young to be drinkin that shtuff anyway
serves ya right
Too young to be drinking Dr. McGillicuddy's mentholmint schnapps???
No way, man! That's my favorite!!!
Peace,
Chip
Good grief, I ask a simple question and Wayne goes bonkers.
Sorry I pot-stirred, but I asked because I figured (correctly) that others had experiences with higher than average mortality from the net caught only collectors. Now I'm all about doing away with cyanide, but let's be realistic here. If we take away a method that works (cyanide) and tout net-caught as the "answer", then by gosh, I think the average hobbiest is expecting an "improvement" in the health of the fish, not higher losses absorbed behind the scenes and resulting in higher cost per fish. I don't mind paying more for the fact that there's more labor involved in net catch as a method, but I do mind paying more if the collectors can't manage to keep the darn fish alive till they get to the states. Sounds like there's all sorts of training that needs to occur, and I've no idea on how that should be managed?
BTW, Mary I must meet up with you one of these days...you rule
Sorry I pot-stirred, but I asked because I figured (correctly) that others had experiences with higher than average mortality from the net caught only collectors. Now I'm all about doing away with cyanide, but let's be realistic here. If we take away a method that works (cyanide) and tout net-caught as the "answer", then by gosh, I think the average hobbiest is expecting an "improvement" in the health of the fish, not higher losses absorbed behind the scenes and resulting in higher cost per fish. I don't mind paying more for the fact that there's more labor involved in net catch as a method, but I do mind paying more if the collectors can't manage to keep the darn fish alive till they get to the states. Sounds like there's all sorts of training that needs to occur, and I've no idea on how that should be managed?
BTW, Mary I must meet up with you one of these days...you rule
Nanocat,
What needs to happen is that a reliable flow of net caught fish needs to get to the experienced exporters. The problem is that the experienced exporters are major players, and they need lots and lots of fish. Unfortunately there aren't lots and lots of net caught fish, so they have to mix. Once the supply line is in place and the net caught fish are funneled to exporters who know who to properly handle, pack, and ship them, I think we'll see mortalities below 1-2% on a regular basis. In the past, the net caught fish were going to start up exporters who didn't have a clue how to hold and pack the fish. So the mortalities stemmed from improper care at the exporter and improper packing.
You're in southern cali, right nanocat?? We're having an open house in October, so maybe you can meet me then.
What needs to happen is that a reliable flow of net caught fish needs to get to the experienced exporters. The problem is that the experienced exporters are major players, and they need lots and lots of fish. Unfortunately there aren't lots and lots of net caught fish, so they have to mix. Once the supply line is in place and the net caught fish are funneled to exporters who know who to properly handle, pack, and ship them, I think we'll see mortalities below 1-2% on a regular basis. In the past, the net caught fish were going to start up exporters who didn't have a clue how to hold and pack the fish. So the mortalities stemmed from improper care at the exporter and improper packing.
You're in southern cali, right nanocat?? We're having an open house in October, so maybe you can meet me then.
In my experience the net caught fish can have significant DOA but the DAA is much better than some suspect caught species. I think that at the hobbyist level the net caught fish will show better survivability. Once net caught fish survive the perils of shipping they generally end up being quite sturdy fish so I think that there will be some benefit of net caught that will be obvious to hobbyists.
Dave
Dave
I agree with Dave about the DOA vs. DAA of the net caughts. Once we got the fish through shipping and acclimation, they were usually tough. Of course, there were those times when after a few days we'd lose all of the individuals of a certain species for some unknown reason. If the DOAs hadn't been so horredous, we could have continued with the net caught. And by the way, when I'm talking net caught, I'm talking about Philippine fish. Not from net caught countries like Fiji, Tonga, Solomons, etc...
Rover- because everyone was trying so hard to have an exporter that was 100% net caught. You couldn't do it with the big exporters. There weren't enough fish, so they'd have to mix them with the cyanide caught fish and you'd never know what was what. By trying to get all of the fish through to the very few exporters who wanted 100% net caught, you were able to know where your fish were coming from, but those fish were being handled by inexperienced people.
Rover- because everyone was trying so hard to have an exporter that was 100% net caught. You couldn't do it with the big exporters. There weren't enough fish, so they'd have to mix them with the cyanide caught fish and you'd never know what was what. By trying to get all of the fish through to the very few exporters who wanted 100% net caught, you were able to know where your fish were coming from, but those fish were being handled by inexperienced people.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Rover wrote;
"Why have all the netcaught fish gone to inexperienced start-ups in the past?
The fish all go to inexperienced start-ups because the real business people are in it for money and only money...old school way.
Only amatuers without a niche would go netcaught because it was the only niche not occupied.
Cheaper fish afforded by an economy of scale and greater variety for lack of selectivity based on ethics have been the hallmark of the cyanide trade.
The business maxim has been for 20 years that only a fool would go netcaught because it is the kiss of death.
The appeal to sustainability has not been attractive to easily 95% of the market.
If there is now a gun at the head of the industry...it may finally listen and support netcaught fish.
I just got in 120 netcaught blue tang from a guy I trained in 1983 when he was 15. ..and its still a slow week.
Why? Cause they're 2 bucks more then cyanide blue tangs thats why. This is a very old story.
Steve
"Why have all the netcaught fish gone to inexperienced start-ups in the past?
The fish all go to inexperienced start-ups because the real business people are in it for money and only money...old school way.
Only amatuers without a niche would go netcaught because it was the only niche not occupied.
Cheaper fish afforded by an economy of scale and greater variety for lack of selectivity based on ethics have been the hallmark of the cyanide trade.
The business maxim has been for 20 years that only a fool would go netcaught because it is the kiss of death.
The appeal to sustainability has not been attractive to easily 95% of the market.
If there is now a gun at the head of the industry...it may finally listen and support netcaught fish.
I just got in 120 netcaught blue tang from a guy I trained in 1983 when he was 15. ..and its still a slow week.
Why? Cause they're 2 bucks more then cyanide blue tangs thats why. This is a very old story.
Steve
I wouldn't totally discount Jeff Kalknik's theory that the cyanide has some anesthetic value after the point of capture. A calm, nearly sleeping fish does not thrast about trying to escape like the netcaught. I have actually had fish expire while trying to chase them down with a net in the tanks. I'm not condoning the use of cyanide, but it is possible there are side effects that reduce the stress of the capture and transport stages. Then again there are liver damage issues and other posssible health consequences from the cyanide. Not to mention damage to the corals.
Mitch
Mitch
nanocat":3b6pvuqm said:Good grief, I ask a simple question and Wayne goes bonkers.
Sorry I pot-stirred, but I asked because I figured (correctly) that others had experiences with higher than average mortality from the net caught only collectors. Now I'm all about doing away with cyanide, but let's be realistic here. If we take away a method that works (cyanide) and tout net-caught as the "answer", then by gosh, I think the average hobbiest is expecting an "improvement" in the health of the fish, not higher losses absorbed behind the scenes and resulting in higher cost per fish. I don't mind paying more for the fact that there's more labor involved in net catch as a method, but I do mind paying more if the collectors can't manage to keep the darn fish alive till they get to the states. Sounds like there's all sorts of training that needs to occur, and I've no idea on how that should be managed?
BTW, Mary I must meet up with you one of these days...you rule
Some of the worst DOA/DAA I had was from ordering "net caught" fish from Eco-Vitality's goodfish program.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Chris,
My worst DOAS/DAAS ever came from environmentalist inspired NGOs as well.
The new ones hoping to cash in on the netcaught 'thing' and charge more money...tend to forget about disease, parasites and water quality.
...if they ever knew.
They also have no concept of 'landed costs', packing with skill and being even slightly competitive.
There is an intimate connection between this amatuer fish production and amatuer industry reform. Often the two are inspired by the same folks.
Trying to cash in on an eco-label has run ahead of the talent and experience to achieve it.
Steve
My worst DOAS/DAAS ever came from environmentalist inspired NGOs as well.
The new ones hoping to cash in on the netcaught 'thing' and charge more money...tend to forget about disease, parasites and water quality.
...if they ever knew.
They also have no concept of 'landed costs', packing with skill and being even slightly competitive.
There is an intimate connection between this amatuer fish production and amatuer industry reform. Often the two are inspired by the same folks.
Trying to cash in on an eco-label has run ahead of the talent and experience to achieve it.
Steve
From a consumer's point of view, this all rather depressing.
Just curious, but since we can't effectively police the world, or tell other countries what to do, what if we just passed a law that no live animals could be imported into the US unless they self certified as cyanide free? Then countries can continue to cyanide to their heart's content and sell to Asia, Europe, Canada, etc.....just not to us. Wouldn't that make it more profitable for a major wholesaler to establish the U.S. niche for net caught? I mean someone is going to tap into such a big market, right? Yes, I know the "self certifying" issue means there will be cheats, but I'm assuming (and maybe not correctly) that there must be a way to pull shipments for random cyanide testing? Once a few guys get caught and fined, I'd think there'd be less cheating...but then I might just be naive?
Of course this means we'll all pay a LOT more for ornamental fish in the U.S., but frankly, big deal. It's not like the FISH are the expensive part of the hobby anyway. Also, if it's an import law, everyone will be on the same "expensive" playing field in the states.
So, other than the outcry, would that work?
Just curious, but since we can't effectively police the world, or tell other countries what to do, what if we just passed a law that no live animals could be imported into the US unless they self certified as cyanide free? Then countries can continue to cyanide to their heart's content and sell to Asia, Europe, Canada, etc.....just not to us. Wouldn't that make it more profitable for a major wholesaler to establish the U.S. niche for net caught? I mean someone is going to tap into such a big market, right? Yes, I know the "self certifying" issue means there will be cheats, but I'm assuming (and maybe not correctly) that there must be a way to pull shipments for random cyanide testing? Once a few guys get caught and fined, I'd think there'd be less cheating...but then I might just be naive?
Of course this means we'll all pay a LOT more for ornamental fish in the U.S., but frankly, big deal. It's not like the FISH are the expensive part of the hobby anyway. Also, if it's an import law, everyone will be on the same "expensive" playing field in the states.
So, other than the outcry, would that work?
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Boss,
Everytime you cross a cultural boundary, your logic degrades by a factor of 25%
Yes, a rich Filipino exporter could vertically integrate his chain of supply and keep it all netcaught. What could be simpler then writing that?
Only this;
That guy doesn't exist.
This trade has to defend itself as if it were innocent...while being guilty.
And its fellow travelers ie. the eco/ego groups that have been groupies to it will bail out and claim they were not a part of the non-starting fishermans training programs that gave them salaries and budgets for so long.
When you win...MAC will be there to claim credit for reform...and if you lose and get to be in the line-up all alone.
I don't see how environmentalists can criticise the trade they've been shacking up with for so long.
Steve
Everytime you cross a cultural boundary, your logic degrades by a factor of 25%
Yes, a rich Filipino exporter could vertically integrate his chain of supply and keep it all netcaught. What could be simpler then writing that?
Only this;
That guy doesn't exist.
This trade has to defend itself as if it were innocent...while being guilty.
And its fellow travelers ie. the eco/ego groups that have been groupies to it will bail out and claim they were not a part of the non-starting fishermans training programs that gave them salaries and budgets for so long.
When you win...MAC will be there to claim credit for reform...and if you lose and get to be in the line-up all alone.
I don't see how environmentalists can criticise the trade they've been shacking up with for so long.
Steve
With the greatest Steve IMO you are wrong again.
The same scum involved in cyanide will drop it and move on to net caught
for two reasons.
1. Charges will be laid against violators. It will be swift and tough to set an example to others.
2. They are already in the business. Why would they give up their assets contacts and knowledge. They will simply change with the times when they have to.
The same scum involved in cyanide will drop it and move on to net caught
for two reasons.
1. Charges will be laid against violators. It will be swift and tough to set an example to others.
2. They are already in the business. Why would they give up their assets contacts and knowledge. They will simply change with the times when they have to.
naesco":1j5qhke7 said:
it's actually kind of funny how every single 'prediction' you've made in this forum for over the past year or two never panned out :lol:
remember what you said about the cdt test being right around the corner ?
(was that 2 yrs ago, or a year and a half ?) :lol:
Interesting comment Vitz.
Let's take a good look at it.
I wonder who posted "that the government will enact legislation to close down the industry if industry did not take steps to reeform itself."
Vitz were you the guy who said it would never happen because only a left wing Canuck would think like that? I think so.
Let's take a good look at it.
I wonder who posted "that the government will enact legislation to close down the industry if industry did not take steps to reeform itself."
Vitz were you the guy who said it would never happen because only a left wing Canuck would think like that? I think so.
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