Who needs wholesalers/LFS/etailers, let's do a group buy

[Kalkbreath]

Gee I would think you already have a perfect source of information at your work.
Ask your boss what he knows about MO businesses having to change course in this new market. Im sure he has lots of "DATA" to fill your hearth's content!
He might even be able to fill you in on the E-tail market and how even those businesses can be up ended by the simplest little things like : failure to turn a profit.

 

[croaker]

I thought to myself a few days ago....maybe the fish and inverts are surviving better today than years past. I know we have greatly improved our mortalities, and maybe others have too. Could the demand be less needed due to more successful hobbyists? I think that's part of it...also I think the quality of the livestock has improved greatly over the years, from all sides...exporters, wholesalers (not sure), retailers and hobbyists.

sdcfish and any others that would care to chime in...

Just curious...do you think this has to do with stronger, healthier fish coming from breeders like ORA and other aquacultured species? Do you see aquacultured fish and inverts (if there are some) as better quality animals? From a hobbiest persepective I think it is worth paying more for an aquacultured fish but I don't know if it is worth it for wholesalers/LFS? I was just following along on this thread and find it very interesting. I can see that you all are passionate about what you do and that makes a huge difference. Going into a LFS it makes a huge difference if someone working there is passionate about the fish and really want to help you. Unfortunately near me in San Diego this is rare. It can be easier to order something online but I have never done it for a fish, for equipment yes but I'd rather see what I am buying so I know it will eat. Ideally I would rather buy it from a local breeder/aquacultured fish source because I know it was not take from the wild that way but unfortunately you are limited on the number of species this way. Just my opinions.

 

[pyrrhus]

Croaker,

Unfortunately the average hobbiest couldn't care less whether or not a fish is Captive Bred, Tank Raised, or Wild Caught. Further to the point, ever since Proaquatix closed up shop I haven't recieved a decent order or fill from the remaining breeder.

You have two steaks in front of you, they both look exactly the same, but one is less than half the price of the other. The more expensive steak was produced with little to no impact to the environment. Which one do you buy?

But, this isn't even the whole story. Too often the breeders produce poor quality fish at the same price as perfect specimens. Try explaining to your customers why the so-so looking misbarred clownfish is half the size and nearly double the price of the better looking wild fish next to it. Very hard to do.

 

[swsaltwater]

It would help if breeders actually kept family trees for breeding. I got a really bad shipment of Blacks from ORA with noticable defects. I called and they said they did not control genetic diversity and are possibly inbreeding fish. If a breeder actually pays attention to genetic diversity we might see a better product IMO. As far as price we will need to look at 3rd world breeders since aquaculture is labor intensive.

 

[swsaltwater]

and their fish are simply there as a loss leader to sell crappy setups that people eventually come in to pay me to fix up with proper filtration.

Those cheap inferior setups are what sets the hook in many cases. Telling them the truth that it's going to cost them 5k for the new system won't allow you to sleep better at night since you'll be awake thinking about how to pay the bills instead of thinking about how you abused the customers. :lol:

SteveU

All I have to say is wow. If I have to con people to make a living then I would rather go get my 8-5 computer job back. I tell them what works, and what will happen if they take the petco rip off. 80% take the right path, the others wait a few months and a few hundred in fish.

If you explain to them that yes they save money with the setup but it will suck then OK, but if you sell it and never tell them there is a better way that is just dishonest. All it will do is chase people out of the hobby thinking its too hard. Then they tell 10 friends Saltwater is too hard. Thats why most people assume saltwater tanks are impossible to keep. All for a short term fix.

I sell lots of the 8k-12k setups every year and I make sure they get what they pay for.

 

[Anonymous]

<sigh>

i'm fairly amazed at how easily an obvious point of what someone is saying or asking gets missed...

no course has changed, kalk-none, nada, zip-this is a luxury hobby, not a necessity market, and folks change what luxuries they prefer from time to time-general states of economy have immediate impact on consumer spending on luxury items

why isn't anyone addressing how the HUGE increase in personal debt might be affecting both the consumer purchasing habits, and the afffordability of running a biz?

it's not ALL about y'all and your grudges against other biz models-be they 'fair' or not 'fair' in your eyes

i'm not even interested in etail and what happens with it -imo, it's simply NOT relevant to the b&m sector-it's a different, non-competing, piece of the pie

i remember back in the 70's petshops opening and closing every 2-3 years-i'm simply contending that things are going more or less the way they have been since fish stores started to exist-many close due to competition by fellow stores, or short sighted biz practices, high interest rates on biz loans, increasing property rental rates, the fact that our currency is DESIGNED to devalue by half every 40 years or so, etc etc ad nauseum.....

most of the places i've been to have always been very reluctant to plunk down money back into upgrading to better or more efficient systems that long term, would far better benefit the store as a viable business, but not quite as reluctant to make a quick killing on selling a cheap product at a high markup that might eventually turn away a potential long term customer in disgust when it craps out-because they knew no better than to believe the sales rep selling them (the store) the product, and they only think about the tomorrow vis-a-vis their wallet, not 10 years down the road-but don't feel too bad- imo, most small business owners are probably of that mind set, as are most americans-it's the culture of this country

many stores, to this day, still know next to nothing about what it is they're selling-they're biz people, NOT fish people

there are sooooo many factors, that to say without doubt that etail, big box stores, dropshippers, are the demise of the b&m's that close down is simply ridiculous-especially without any data to back it up

btw-i'll wager that your local petsmart/petco starts more hobbyists yearly into owning a fishtank than you and every independent within a 100 mile radius-if you want to give today's real aquarium first timer starters the actual credit they're due-just like it used to be 'two guys' and 'woolworth's' back in the day

the first tanks i ever saw in a store setting were in 'two guys' in joisey (woodbridge mall, iirc ) -a department store-NOT at an lfs-i'll bet that more kids see an aquarium in a store setting other than an lfs (read that petco/smart is NOT an lfs for the sake of this point) more often, and first, than you are propbably willing to admit

failure to turn a profit is equally the cause for everyone-no profundity there

 

[Anonymous]

vitz,
One reason a business changes its name is to stiff creditors when they go bankrupt. :wink: If the shoe fits. The main reason stores are closing is that others have found a way to buy and sell cheaper than they can. From a saltwater perspective this has been aided and abetted by the wholesalers who enable dropshipping and sell to the low overhead garage guys. The big box have been able to hurt brick and mortars with purchasing muscle. Plain and simple they can buy direct from manufacturers and the save the 35% markup the wholesalers want to make for delivering the stuff to your door.

BTW I don't really need arm chair quarterbacks telling me how I should run my business. I'll certainly listen and relate to fellow retailers, but if someone has never walked the walk then then don't need to be trying to talk the talk IMHO.

dude- stop trying to dig and insinuate things out of your own fantasies-it does you little credit, heh-like i said, i neither know, nor care- names also change because partnerships change, among dozens of other reasons.

but let's take bankruptcy as an example-I declared bankruptcy back in '99/2000. so big friggin tickleteedoo-here i am, 'making a living', with an income-bankruptcy means absolutely nothing-it's a way of solving an economic problem, perfectly legal, and sometimes even moral-a company can declare bankruptcy, and the same owners can open a new company that does the exact same thing they did before, making the same pocket bank as before-hey, it's the american way! this country is run by both a debt, and a deficit economy-the act of going bankrupt MAY HAVE NO RELEVANCE TO THE STATE OF THE INDUSTRY THAT THE COMPANY WAS INVOLVED IN, or the success of the owners of that company in the future

i'm an arm chair quaterback trying to tell you how to run your biz? why should i care how you run your biz, or your life-i just hope you do it better than you debate, for your own sake

all you seem to do is sidetrack the argument to fairly petty and immature retort , insinuation, and obfuscation-once again-i'm saying that unless you provide SOME sort of data to back up your contentions, you're merely surmising and assuming, based on your very strong personal bias against a business model, which you've made clear on this forum for years-do you even have data that more b&m's are closing yearly than were 20 years ago?

and food for thought-if you were truly worried about protecting your peice of the MO pie-you're missing the real threat by waaaay more than a mile-
will you be shouting at the big box dropshippers when there are no reefs left, saying that it was their fault too? there are far greater threats to your (and mine) source of livelihood than the 'dr.s', or petco, or the internet.if you and kalk made half the noise about THOSE issues on this forum as you do about what seems to be opinion and conjecture, i might actually be impressed

 

[pyrrhus]

:golfclap:

 

[dizzy]

vitz,
It never ceases to amaze me when you come on here and run down the very customer base you should be trying to win over. You act like b&m are stupid because they don't set up ecommerse sites to compete with the cherry pickers who are camped outside 104th st wholesalers doors. The last three places you've worked have all devised some sort of stab the b&m's in the back schemes with varying degrees of success. Most of us know who owned Flying Fish Express and are aware of the legacy that site brought to the industry. We also watched Mary M try and retail and etail with somewhat less than spectacular results. I suspose you think she is stupid too. Marine Depot with their close proximity to the cherry picker enablers appears to be making it work, but to suggest it will work for Dorthy in Kansas smacks of Marie Antoinette's famous "Let them eat cake."

I'm a free speech guy 100%, but an employee owes the place of his employment a certain amount of respect. I can come here and present my views and if it isn't good for my business it's one thing. Eric Cohen can come here and tell us his opinions on what is good for the industry and if that hurts his business it's sort of like my situation. But if you however come here and alienate potential customers it could be crossing a line an employee shouldn't cross. My recommendation to you is to be more careful in what you write. You come off as being way too emotional. The good news is that there are medications that can help.
Mitch

 

[wrott]

with an income-bankruptcy means absolutely nothing-it's a way of solving an economic problem, perfectly legal, and sometimes even moral-a company can declare bankruptcy, and the same owners can open a new company that does the exact same thing they did before, making the same pocket bank as before-hey, it's the american way! this country is run by both a debt, and a deficit economy-the act of going bankrupt MAY HAVE NO RELEVANCE TO THE STATE OF THE INDUSTRY THAT THE COMPANY WAS INVOLVED IN, or the success of the owners of that company in the future

Wow, just wow.

 

[GTR1]

All I have to say is wow. If I have to con people to make a living then I would rather go get my 8-5 computer job back. I tell them what works, and what will happen if they take the petco rip off. 80% take the right path, the others wait a few months and a few hundred in fish.

If you explain to them that yes they save money with the setup but it will suck then OK, but if you sell it and never tell them there is a better way that is just dishonest. All it will do is chase people out of the hobby thinking its too hard. Then they tell 10 friends Saltwater is too hard. Thats why most people assume saltwater tanks are impossible to keep. All for a short term fix.

I sell lots of the 8k-12k setups every year and I make sure they get what they pay for.

I think you don't understand my point.

Your 8-12k system might make the hobbyist job easier but they don't need that to succeed, nor does it guarantee it. And they'll tell 10 friends it cost them 10k. :lol:

I see absolutley nothing wrong with directing a newbie into a system that meets their desires of the moment which would include coming up with something that falls within their idea of what is affordable at the time.

SteveU

 

[JennM]

All I have to say is wow. If I have to con people to make a living then I would rather go get my 8-5 computer job back. I tell them what works, and what will happen if they take the petco rip off. 80% take the right path, the others wait a few months and a few hundred in fish.

If you explain to them that yes they save money with the setup but it will suck then OK, but if you sell it and never tell them there is a better way that is just dishonest. All it will do is chase people out of the hobby thinking its too hard. Then they tell 10 friends Saltwater is too hard. Thats why most people assume saltwater tanks are impossible to keep. All for a short term fix.

I sell lots of the 8k-12k setups every year and I make sure they get what they pay for.

I think you don't understand my point.

Your 8-12k system might make the hobbyist job easier but they don't need that to succeed, nor does it guarantee it. And they'll tell 10 friends it cost them 10k. :lol:

I see absolutley nothing wrong with directing a newbie into a system that meets their desires of the moment which would include coming up with something that falls within their idea of what is affordable at the time.

SteveU

Well IMO it's better to get somebody into a smaller, well-set-up system that they can afford, than getting them into the same sized tank with half-assed equipment.

Let's say we're talking about a 75-gallon tank intended for a reef tank. There are several ways this can be done:

The way *I* would recommend:
Reef-ready tank, sump, protein skimmer (a decent one like a Euroreef), and depending on the customer's objectives, usually compact fluorescent lighting. Cost of that will be about $1000-2000 depending on whether they want a pine cabinet or an oak or maple one, canopy or not, but the functional hardware will be about the same.

The way Petsmart recommends:
75g standard tank, Fluval or maybe 2 fluvals, standard issue lighting.

The way I've seen other retailers (some/many of whom are defunct now) recommends:
75g standard tank, canister or HOB magnum or similar, and Sea Clone HOB skimmer because it's cheap and easy to get. *Maybe* decent lighting, maybe not.

Will they all work? Sure, in the short term. However if the hobbyist wants to upgrade (more intricate specimens etc or even larger tank) most of that stuff in the 2 latter situations don't move with you to a larger tank, whereas much of what I'd recommend can go up to a larger size (to a point). Furthermore, sooner or later the hobbyist will come to the realization that the Fluval becomes a nitrate nightmare, and the Sea Clone wasn't worth the $100 he paid for it - then he spends more money on an unreliable HOB overflow box (overflow being the operative word) - then he buys a decent skimmer etc., and by the time it's all said and done, he's likely spent more money, time and trouble than if he'd done it "right" in the first place.

Some folks take the cheap way out and end up putting good money after bad, some end up giving up after they learn that they've spent money on junk.

That's why I tell people to compare *my* quote with others, to make sure the equipment is comparable and why. Do they all listen? No.

However if I write a quote for the same 75 and they tell me it's too much, then I suggest going smaller instead and try to find something effective that's within their budget...

Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Unfortunately, not everybody sees it the same way.

Jenn

 

[swsaltwater]

Well said Jenn!

 

[Anonymous]

vitz,
It never ceases to amaze me when you come on here and run down the very customer base you should be trying to win over. You act like b&m are stupid because they don't set up ecommerse sites to compete with the cherry pickers who are camped outside 104th st wholesalers doors. The last three places you've worked have all devised some sort of stab the b&m's in the back schemes with varying degrees of success. Most of us know who owned Flying Fish Express and are aware of the legacy that site brought to the industry. We also watched Mary M try and retail and etail with somewhat less than spectacular results. I suspose you think she is stupid too. Marine Depot with their close proximity to the cherry picker enablers appears to be making it work, but to suggest it will work for Dorthy in Kansas smacks of Marie Antoinette's famous "Let them eat cake."

I'm a free speech guy 100%, but an employee owes the place of his employment a certain amount of respect. I can come here and present my views and if it isn't good for my business it's one thing. Eric Cohen can come here and tell us his opinions on what is good for the industry and if that hurts his business it's sort of like my situation. But if you however come here and alienate potential customers it could be crossing a line an employee shouldn't cross. My recommendation to you is to be more careful in what you write. You come off as being way too emotional. The good news is that there are medications that can help.
Mitch

<sigh>

so- are more stores closing yearly than were 25 years ago, 30 years ago, etc ?

 

[Kalkbreath]

<sigh>


no course has changed, kalk-none, nada, zip-this is a luxury hobby, not a necessity market, and folks change what luxuries they prefer from time to time-general states of economy have immediate impact on consumer spending on luxury items

Yes there has been a big change. There are fewer LFSs to pimp the product to the affluent crowd. ( just like you said, "a luxury"... the limited number of people who can afford this stuff.)


Big box stores create low end freshwater hobbyists and thats great.
I dont knock the big box stores. Their advertizing might is good at getting the hobby in the publics face.
But big box stores dont replace what an LFS does for the marine/reef market.

And as for the general state of the economy, Its better then ever.(dont let the media fool you)
Greater home ownership with lower unemployment then during the 70s 80s or the nineties. (and it would be even lower without 20 million undocumented folks)
Just spend a day at the local electronics big box store.
People are spending on toys, its just that our industry is not on the publics radar like it was in past years , back when many more high profile brick and mortar stores were in the face of the public.

 

[JennM]

The Big Box LFS is not a new thing. I've never seen one on this side of the border, but in Canada we've got "Aquarium Services" - you know it here now as Big Al's Online. Big Al the cartoon character was the mascot for Aquarium Services, which I beleive, began in an empty car dealership building in Toronto (and I think it's still there).

In Ottawa they had 2 locations one at each end of town. It was ONLY aquatics stuff (but usually next door there was a Big Box for everything else and I can't remember what it was called). They had a showroom with tanks and accessories and stuff and a warehouse-style fish room with both fresh and marines.

You'd go in, grab a clipboard and a pen, peruse the tanks, write down the tank number and description and price of what you wanted, then pull a number and wait for your number to be called. Then the next available fish catching dude would go and pull your order and bag it, mark it and you took it up to the counter to pay - just like a "Service Merchandise" type of outfit. Occasionally you could ask a few questions but usually it was in-and-out, turn-and-burn. I went there when I got my first saltwater tank (used from a friend, with incompatible livestock and plastic plants!) and this was back in the mid 80s.

Once we made a few mistakes, we sought out a smaller, more friendly LFS and that's where the rest of our business went until we moved to the US.

The big box was busy all the time - but one has to wonder how many people gave up after screwing up without any guidance? For me, I needed a helping hand and there weren't many reference books available at the big box and nobody really to ask. When I found a good Mom and Pop place the first thing they sold me was Moe's Marine Aquarium Reference and we never looked back.

I daresay the big box is still there - and it was ahead of its time, at least in that part of the world - but it prompted me, as it has countless others, to seek out a more personal, specialized store to help along the way.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

<sigh>


no course has changed, kalk-none, nada, zip-this is a luxury hobby, not a necessity market, and folks change what luxuries they prefer from time to time-general states of economy have immediate impact on consumer spending on luxury items

Yes there has been a big change. There are fewer LFSs to pimp the product to the affluent crowd. ( just like you said, "a luxury"... the limited number of people who can afford this stuff.)


Big box stores create low end freshwater hobbyists and thats great.
I dont knock the big box stores. Their advertizing might is good at getting the hobby in the publics face.
But big box stores dont replace what an LFS does for the marine/reef market.

And as for the general state of the economy, Its better then ever.(dont let the media fool you)
Greater home ownership with lower unemployment then during the 70s 80s or the nineties. (and it would be even lower without 20 million undocumented folks)
Just spend a day at the local electronics big box store.
People are spending on toys, its just that our industry is not on the publics radar like it was in past years , back when many more high profile brick and mortar stores were in the face of the public.

please post statistics, or a link, to back up your claim-one either showing fewer lfs's in this country than 25 years ago, or an increase in closing rate over 25 years ago.

 

[dizzy]

Jenn,
The Big Al's in Tamarac, Fl is designed to take business from the average lfs, not hand it over. Take the tour. http://www.bigalsusa.com/store_tour.cfm They did have plans to open up several more around the country, but I don't know how profitable the current one is.

 

[JennM]

Yep that's what it was like, only that one on the website was turbo-charged.

I never found staff to be helpful except to pluck your selection out of a tank - but then again I haven't been to one of those places in 20 years now, maybe longer.

Unless they've got more staff per capita of customers, or knowledgable staff, I don't think they're much "competion" for the service end. Volume and price, maybe - but not for the personal touch.

Jenn

 

[GTR1]

Unless they've got more staff per capita of customers, or knowledgable staff, I don't think they're much "competion" for the service end. Volume and price, maybe - but not for the personal touch.

Jenn

But you still must overcome "Big Joe Hobbyist" that already knows everything anyway and pats himself on the back when he saves five bucks. :lol:

SteveU