I'd like opinions from everyone on this...

[Anonymous]

...What say you all?

Jenn

Seems simple to a hobbyist like myself. Do as I say, not as I do

 

[dizzy]

Mitch, he'd self-deleted before I even saw the thread a few days ago, however from a previous thread http://thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79793 it appears he's tinkering with a WYSIWYG webcam concept.

I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight here... just trying to clarify what is deemed "ok" insofar as shipping livestock goes, in the minds of folks here.

Plenty of etailers have a B&M, and many don't - I'm trying to understand if there is indeed a double standard at work here (in general, not specifically singling out Jeff or anyone)... from what I'm hearing, some people think it's OK to ship livestock if they have a B&M, and some people think it's wrong to ship livestock to hobbyists, period.

It's a whole can of worms - and perhaps this would have been best suited for a new thread - moderators can move it if they see fit... just that Jeff's comments to Chip concerning "stealing LFS customers" kind of jumped out at me, because it seems to me that he's wanting to engage in similar activity, using the reason that he does have a B&M as a means to justify it.

What say you all?

Jenn

I say off with his head. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

More $.02 from a simple hobbyist....

After over 20 years of hedging because I though the equipment was ill suited and the techniques too poor to keep most reef stock alive (let alone thrive) stepping into Marks shop is what got me to take the plunge.

BUT.....!

How did I find his shop?????

The internet.

So in my case, which came first? - The chicken.. Or the egg...?


Personally, I think its a potential revenue stream that cannot (safely) be ignored. - But just like setting up a B&M, it has to be done correctly in order to succeed.

And you can still operate ethically online just the same as you can in a B&M.. - Encouraging your online customers to seek out sources of information such as this one (RDO) is a great way to promote education and responsible care I think...

 

[dizzy]

Encouraging your online customers to seek out sources of information such as this one (RDO) is a great way to promote education and responsible care I think...

It also a great way to put them in touch with your competition. You better be cheap on your prices or have an endless supply of cherries if you want to be successful at that game.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Encouraging your online customers to seek out sources of information such as this one (RDO) is a great way to promote education and responsible care I think...

It also a great way to put them in touch with your competition. You better be cheap on your prices or have an endless supply of cherries if you want to be successful at that game.
Mitch

Note freshly bolded above.

If they found you online, its very likely they found your competition already. - But as many of us know, not all reef boards are created equal. For instance, you wouldn't want to send them to my craphole site now would you?? :lol:

 

[dizzy]

I wasn't aware a shopping cart asked questions or gave advice........other than trying to get you to buy related items. :lol: But if they call, getting them off the phone is job one, so I like your suggestion. :wink:

Chip,
Is that Rico Suave looking guy in your current avatar you? 8O You look much better without the white storm trooper suit. :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

And I wasn't aware all B&M's asked questions or gave advice either...

Here's an example of an etailer that takes the extra step when "selling" a Mandarin Goby..
From: http://www.marinedepotlive.com/green-ma ... ettes.html

Restricted Species. This species is very difficult to keep and should only be attempted by expert aquarists, or is a 'delicate shipper.' Our Stay Alive guarantee is not available on this item.

General Notes: The Green Mandarin should NOT be kept in anything but a well established Reef tank (6 months or more) of NO LESS than 75 gallons WITH a refugium as it primarily feeds on copepods. Gobies may sometimes attempt jump out. Prefer presence of substrate. The most colourful of commonly found fish for marine aquarium enthusiasts. Its appetite is not the easiest to satisfy. Commonly called dragonets which are charactistize by elongated bodies,without scales,and also by the presence of two dorsal fins. If purchasing a small specimen it is often easier to teach them to accept prepared foods with patience and work. Will fight with same sex in this species. Sadly, this fish normally dies as it is often purchased and kept in under established tanks without enough food to consume. Death from starvation normally occurs within six months.

Along with other basic info...

I know what your stance is re: etail Mitch.. - I can respect that, but the fact of the matter is (and Bob sings it best) "the times, they are a changin'"........


Oh, and yes, it is tough for etailers to also direct people to places like this, especially if they aren't sponsors of those services and their competition are... - It is yet another paradigm for consideration, but I think thats more on the end of those who wish to make offering a communication service their business model..

 

[dizzy]

Norm,
You referencing an etailer who never even tanks the animals. They must surely be parroting the information. Do you really think an inland retailer can play the same game the local cherry pickers can?
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Norm,
You referencing an etailer who never even tanks the animals. They must surely be parroting the information.

Now THAT'S reaching. You really think Ken Wong has no first hand experience keeping saltwater fish?

But hey, even if he didn't, and for some reason no one on his staff did either, does that even matter if the information is accurate, reliable, conscientious and realistic?

The times, they aren't a' changing. They've already changed.

 

[Anonymous]

Do you really think an inland retailer can play the same game the local cherry pickers can?

Obviously I'm in no position to make anything more than an uneducated guess at answering that.

But personally, I think it would be great if hobbyists like me could more easily get "insider knowledge" of how different places operate in order to empower us to make purchasing decisions that reflect our views.

Unfortunately, I don't really have too many answers to the retail->hobbyist fleecing issues. - Mostly, I think its a matter of people being willing & able to speak out without fear of reprisals.

This is a part of why I don't personally care for the etail model as a buyer.. - I like to see the operation I am supporting. - The people who stand behind it. - And I also tend to draw my enthusiasm (or lack of) from their positive (or negative) energy with it.

This is why I had such a strong resurgence in the interest. Marks shop may have been tiny in comparison to many others I've known, but his drive towards an ethical approach made a tremendous impact on me.

But, its hard to argue that internet shopping/spending is a trend thats only going to grow stronger don't you think?

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.marinedepotlive.com/125474.html

"This medium sized (5") Red Sea Regal angel has been with us for more than few months now. Healthy and social, he eats everything from fresh ogo to Formual Two pellets."

I'm just sayin', is all I'm sayin'.

 

[Anonymous]

Norm,
You referencing an etailer who never even tanks the animals. They must surely be parroting the information.

Now THAT'S reaching. You really think Ken Wong has no first hand experience keeping saltwater fish?

But hey, even if he didn't, and for some reason no one on his staff did either, does that even matter if the information is accurate, reliable, conscientious and realistic?

The times, they aren't a' changing. They've already changed.

Yup, Ken does tank stuff. He's a very nice guy, and belive me, does care about the industry pretty deeply. He's been building his business for years to what it is now.

 

[Anonymous]

And BTW< he has probably more monthly expenses running his etail biz, as most brick and mortars ever could imagine. With two massive warehouses, major staff, etc, he pays to play.

Just looking at the other side of the coin,

 

[dizzy]

http://www.marinedepotlive.com/125474.html

"This medium sized (5") Red Sea Regal angel has been with us for more than few months now. Healthy and social, he eats everything from fresh ogo to Formual Two pellets."

I'm just sayin', is all I'm sayin'.

Thanks for pointing out an excellent example of mis-leading advertising. Most of the dropshippers try to play this game as well. You can't use one or two tanks of animals to whitewash thousands going out the door you never tanked. Begs the question as to why they would have it for so long if it was eating well don't ya think.

 

[Anonymous]

POssiably a pet Mitch? We keep pet fish at Cortez, and sold them later. They do tank stuff Mitch, honest.

 

[dizzy]

Let's give out useful information. If you know so much about their operation tell us what percentage of the livestock they sell ever spends a day in the warehouse tanks.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for pointing out an excellent example of mis-leading advertising.

Should I translate that as, "Yes, I was wrong in what I wrote and I thank you for pointing out the error in my claims?"

Most of the dropshippers try to play this game as well. You can't use one or two tanks of animals to whitewash thousands going out the door you never tanked.

Jeff's doesn't. Fosters & Smith doesn't. That Fish Place doesn't. I honestly don't know if Ken does or not, but it sure does look like a holding tank in that photo.

Begs the question as to why they would have it for so long if it was eating well don't ya think.

You just can't win with you guys. If the fish goes right out the door, you loudly decry it by saying, "But the dealer has no idea if the fish was healthy, or eating, or how it will do long-term! If you buy from ME, you can see that I've had the fish for a while and I can tell you if it's eating." And here we have a case where they have had the fish long enough for all that and you want to insinuate that it's something sinister, something wrong in it being in their hands for so long?

 

[dizzy]

CJ,
Do you honestly think these guys intentionally hold healthy fish for months before they sell them? My hat's off to Race Foster for being the first to publically admit that they do indeed dropship. His courage may have lead others to fess up. Having said most of us know Andy is the one that held his feet to the fire. Why don't the wholesalers just start running their own sites and selling directly to the public? What would be the difference? It all comes down to who can sell the cheapest. Are you so sure that is what's best for the marinelife?
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

CJ,
Do you honestly think these guys intentionally hold healthy fish for months before they sell them?

No more then I think -you- intentionally hold healthy fish for months before selling them, but do you want to tell me you don't occasionally have just that happen? If you do, I congratulate you - but the only B&Ms I've ever known who didn't have the occasional fish sitting in their tanks for months before a sale are the ones who couldn't keep a fish alive for that length of time.

My hat's off to Race Foster for being the first to publically admit that they do indeed dropship.

...on top of which, they also have this facility:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/gene ... agesid=377
AND this retail op:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/gene ... &subref=AS

None of that's remotely like the situation you described (one or two tanks used to whitewash thousands). Frankly, it looks like they're moving thousands of animals through their facilities.

When I respond to your points it would be kinda nice if you didn't act like I was failing to answer entirely different ones

Why don't the wholesalers just start running their own sites and selling directly to the public?

Two words: Aquatic Outlet. Lek's place on Hindry, I'm sure you know that story.

But correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Flying Fish Express start off as exactly that sort of operation, years ago?

What would be the difference? It all comes down to who can sell the cheapest. Are you so sure that is what's best for the marinelife?
Mitch

Mitch, from where I'm sitting in my office we could take a walk. I've got three LFS who sell saltwater fish within 15 minutes walk of where I am. All three have plenty of sick fish, bad water conditions, poorly trained staff, overpriced stock and no guarantee on their saltwater stuff at all. All three are B&Ms and not chain shops. Are you so sure that is what's best for the marinelife?

Yes, there are good LFS. I accept on faith that you, Jenn and so many others here are exactly that. But you're in the minority. Hell, this weekend I'm about to take a two hour commute to an LFS because I've heard that he might be better then that and I hope he is. But I live in a major urban area with dozens if not hundreds of LFS, and that's the best I can come up with, that travelling that far might hopefully yield a shop better then the crap holes that are all around.

Anyway, my point is that I can easily use the worst extremes of B&Ms to paint a really horrid picture. But that doesn't stop me from realizing - and saying - that there are, indeed, really, really, really good LFS. It seems like some of you B&M folks are categorically unwilling to make the same statement about at -least- some etailers, regardless of what the facts are though.

And, like Gresh says, Ken's a damn good guy who deserves better then you're giving him.

 

[Anonymous]

Let's give out useful information. If you know so much about their operation tell us what percentage of the livestock they sell ever spends a day in the warehouse tanks.

Umm, ok, before I do that, why don't you post your usefull info Geesh :roll:

WTF, Ken's business is Ken's business. I have no intention of delving into his business, nor do I have the knowledge that you seek. I can tell you he's got two MASSIVE warehouses. Other then that, your better off asking Ken as it's none of my business, nor anyones really. Like I said, he pays to play. He works just as hard, as long, as all you all. He's poured his own sweat and blood into the business and lived on roman, just like everyone else.