MAC Interim Director

[Anonymous]

... replace yourselves with people WHO DON"T NEED 'ADVICE 'ABOOUT A CDT' and will get off of their duffs and implement the one available mac needs people who are knowledgeable enough about the technicalities to implement what's already there and usefull.

Who are these people, are they available, and are they willing to work for MAC?

 

[Anonymous]

... replace yourselves with people WHO DON"T NEED 'ADVICE 'ABOOUT A CDT' and will get off of their duffs and implement the one available mac needs people who are knowledgeable enough about the technicalities to implement what's already there and usefull.

Who are these people, are they available, and are they willing to work for MAC?

I think his point is, wasting more money on something that has proven to work and has been adpoted by sound science doesn't require yet thousands of dollars more to go into "researching" what is all ready known.

 

[Anonymous]

 

[PeterIMA]

I understand that the MAC obtained a grant from the John and Catherine MacArthur Foundation in 2000 to review "chemical detection methods" that was focused on cyanide testing methods. According to MAC's annual reports (still available on their web site) the study was to run from mid-2001 to mid-2003. The grant was in excess of $300,000. I don't believe that anything was done during that time period.

At the Marine Ornamentals Conference held in Honolulu in 2004 I was asked by Aquilino Alvarez (MAC Philippines Country Director) to participate on a CDT Committee to review cyanide testing methods. Another member was to be Dr. Renneberg from Hong Kong (who with Karen Mak published a new cyanide detection method). I never heard anything more about the Committee and was not invited to any meetings.

So, how did MAC spend the $300K? What was accomplished with the MacArthur grant? Why does MAC and ReefCheck need to do it again?

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

Peter,

Where can I find more information about the reliable CDT?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

I think one of the major problems in the Philippines has been that some organizations have taken advantage of this environmental problem (use of cyamide to collect ornamental fish) to make money to their own benefits.

IMA was running the CDT program in the Philippines for many years, they got grants from different funding agencies to develop the CDT. If they got a reliable CDT how come it is not the tool used by the Filipino authorities to bring to jail all cyanide users?

Jaime

 

[PeterIMA]

Thales,

Perhaps there is more than one means of testing fish for the presence of cyanide. I have the two papers published by Drs. Mak and Renneberg that I can forward to you at PDF files.

Of course, I also have the paper that I wrote with the chemists from the IMA that describes the cyanide detection test (CDT) that was used by the IMA under contract with the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources (BFAR). Six IMA CDT laboratories tested over 48,000 fishes from 1993 to 2001. I also helped to prepare the Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) manuals used by IMA biologists conducting sampling and the IMA chemists. The SOP manuals are now used by BFAR staff conducitng cyanide testing.

Rubec, P.J., V.R. Pratt, B. McCollough, B. Manipula, J. Alban, T. Espero, and E.R. Suplido. 2003. Trends determined by cyanide testing on marine aquarium fish in the Philippines. Pages 327-340, In: J.C. Cato and C.L. Brown (eds.), Marine Ornamental Species: Collection, Culture & Cultivation, Iowa State Press, Ames, Iowa.

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime, The IMA adopted the standard method developed by the American Society of Testing and Materials (ASTM).This method for the detection of cyanide ion in solution was extensively evaluated by the ASTM and by other agencies before it was adopted and used by the IMA. The IMA did not get grants to develop a new cyanide detection method.

Fishers apprehended with cyanide tablets and with fish that were found to have cyanide present in their tissues were prosecuted by various law enforcement agencies in the Philippines (Philippine Constabulary, Philippine Navy, Bantay Dagat) with the assistance of the IMA chemists who testified in court. The number of offenders far exceeds the number of people who were prosecuted. This is because of the time and expense involved with such prosecutions. BFAR does not have a law enforcement wing, which probably explains why BFAR does not conduct prosecutions. They do provide test data to law enforcement officials.

To get an idea of the widespread use of cyanide and the legal problems, I suggest that you read the paper published by Dante Dalabajan that was published on-line in the Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin. I believe it came out in Volume No. 15.

Peter Rubec

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Peter,

How long it takes to process a sample of fish tissue using this method? I guess there is a difference between the detection of cyanide ion in water and fish tissues?

What is the weakness of this CDT used by "big fish" (middlemen/exporters) to avoid prison?

Lack of law enforcement, meaning willingness and commitment of the central government to tackle the problem, seems to be the major reason why cyanide is being used by collectors, middlemen/women and exporters involved in this trade.

What would happen in NA if there was not law enforcement for speeders?

As I said before the Filipino government is failing to protect and manage their natural resources. Without its willingness and commitment nothing is going to be accomplished.

 

[Anonymous]

Thales,

Perhaps there is more than one means of testing fish for the presence of cyanide. I have the two papers published by Drs. Mak and Renneberg that I can forward to you at PDF files.

Of course, I also have the paper that I wrote with the chemists from the IMA that describes the cyanide detection test (CDT) that was used by the IMA under contract with the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources (BFAR). Six IMA CDT laboratories tested over 48,000 fishes from 1993 to 2001. I also helped to prepare the Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) manuals used by IMA biologists conducting sampling and the IMA chemists. The SOP manuals are now used by BFAR staff conducitng cyanide testing.

Rubec, P.J., V.R. Pratt, B. McCollough, B. Manipula, J. Alban, T. Espero, and E.R. Suplido. 2003. Trends determined by cyanide testing on marine aquarium fish in the Philippines. Pages 327-340, In: J.C. Cato and C.L. Brown (eds.), Marine Ornamental Species: Collection, Culture & Cultivation, Iowa State Press, Ames, Iowa.

Thanks Peter,

You could forward them to [email protected], or just give us all a quick summary of how the tests work.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Peter for sending me your paper, and I understand you changing your mind about sharing the other papers with me without my paying Science Direct for the information contained in that paper, even if that does strike me as a bit ironic in the current conversation.

The CDT described in your paper involves dissecting the fish, which seems problematic for MO for obvious reasons as well as time consuming. Could you tell me if the CDT in the paper from Science Direct also involves a dissecting the fish?

In the paper you also mentioned the need for a new, more useful CDT - has there been any progress on that?

Thanks.

RR

 

[PeterIMA]

Peter,

How long it takes to process a sample of fish tissue using this method? I guess there is a difference between the detection of cyanide ion in water and fish tissues?

REPLY-Yes there is a difference between testing fish for cyanide ion in solution and testing cyanide in fish tissues. The IMA method involves weighing and blending the tissue in a blender, then digesting the slurry in a flask to vaporize the hydrogen cyanide which passes through a reflux condenser. Cyanide ion is captured in a vial containing sodium hydroxide where it can be measured by various methods such as ISE or colorimetric methods. The entire procedure takes about 2 hours. This digestion/distillation is needed to remove impurities in the sample. Hence, it should be used with all the recommended methods for measuring cyanide published in the ASTM methods publications.

What is the weakness of this CDT used by "big fish" (middlemen/exporters) to avoid prison?

REPLY-The weakness it not in the test, but in the unwillingness of law enforcement agencies to prosecute the middlemen/exporters. Other CDT methods could have the same weakness.

Lack of law enforcement, meaning willingness and commitment of the central government to tackle the problem, seems to be the major reason why cyanide is being used by collectors, middlemen/women and exporters involved in this trade.

REPLy- I agree. But, this could change if international donors provided the funding to recreate the CDT network that was established by the IMA. My conversations with Malcolm Sarmiento the Director of BFAR (several years ago) indicated his willingness to support CDT provided funds could be found to run the laboratories. I suspect that IMA's CDT contract was not renewed in 2001, because the funds provided to the Philippine Dept of Agriculture (over BFAR) through the FSP/FRMP programs ran out.

What would happen in NA if there was not law enforcement for speeders?

REPLY-More traffic accidents?

As I said before the Filipino government is failing to protect and manage their natural resources. Without its willingness and commitment nothing is going to be accomplished.


REPLY-Yes, but to solve the problem we need CDT in other countires as well, like Indonesia, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Malaysia, and Papua New Guinea. So, why lay all the blame just on the Philippine government? At least they funded the CDT labs with IMA and continue to run at least one laboratory in Puerto Princesa and have some equipment still with the central laboratory in Manila. I am not sure what happened to the CDT equipment from 4 other CDT labs that IMA also provided for free ( it belonged to IMA) to the regional BFARs.

Peter Rubec

Regards

Jaime

 

[PeterIMA]

Thales, I did not send you the paper by Mak/Rennerberg because of copyright restrictions and because of statements the authors made about the IMA test that are incorrect. The authors themselves should provide the paper to you. I will send an email to you by PM by which you can contact Dr. Renneberg. All methods that measure cyanide in fish tissue need to either digest the tissue or extract blood (only works on big fish).

The Renneberg method utilizes bacteria to produce an enzyme that then measures a byproduct related to the enzme's action. I suspect that the limiting factor is the need to maintain bacterial cultures to extract the enzyme. The authors need to explain whether this is practical for routine monitoring and testing for cyanide in fish.

The IMA method has undergone extensive round-robin evaluations in various laboratories by the ASTM and other agencies. It is published in books published by at least three different agencies (ASTM, APHA, EPA). The same cannot be said for the new method developed by Drs. Mak and Renneberg with funding from the MAC. I am not sure that the US government would accept test results from the enzyme-based method, until it has been demonstrated to be reliable by other laboratories and/or agencies.

We do have a faster method that we are evaluating for field monitoring. We would like to see the new test applied to monitor MO fish from fish collectors at the munciipal level. The existing IMA ISE procedure should be used in cases involving prosecutions under Philippine law.

Peter Rubec

 

[naesco]

David you have asked for input on the cyanide test and you have it.

1. There are tests available today. What MAC must do forthwith is implement the testing . It is a waste of your money to fund Reefcheck or anyone else. Save your money for Reefcheck's other worthy projects.

2. David , the use of cyanide will stop when tests are done and cyanide is detected in exporters stock. Those importers and stateside wholesalers who continue to purchase stock from that exporter knowingly do so and are therefore subject to the Lacey Act stateside, if cyanide is detected in the fish in the wholesalers possession. One indictment against an importer or wholesaler under the Lacey Act will stop stateside industry from continuing to embrace cyanide.

3. David you must understand that nothing will change until indictments are laid stateside by the authorities and test results are used as proof.

4. As a MAC supporter all along the biggest criticism is MAC took an academic approach to many issues rather than getting things done.

5. Please implement cyanide testing immediately as your number one priority.

Are you at liberty to disclose those who do not support cyanide testing on your board?

Thank you

Wayne Ryan

 

[Jaime Baquero]

-The weakness it not in the test, but in the unwillingness of law enforcement agencies to prosecute the middlemen/exporters. Other CDT methods could have the same weakness.

REPLY -

Peter, what is the point of making extra efforts if the enforcement agencies DO NOT do their job? I guess that officials from those enforcement agencies are getting bribes from middlemen/women and exporters to avoid prosecution. We know how serious is the corruption problem in the Ph.


The Philippines and Indonesia are the major suppliers of MO. In the case of the Philippines we know that a considerable amount of $ has been spent and valuable human resources have been working on this issue for decades. Unfortunately, the central government has not paid attention to all those efforts. The conditions of the coral reefs continue to deteriorate and the fisherfolks are poorer than before.

How many Filipino exporters have been prosecute since IMA's CDT has been in place?

For what I know the corruption problem in Indonesia is worse.

Jaime

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime, Yes, I agree that corruption is a big problem in both the Philippines and Indonesia. But, I still believe that there are government officials who want to deal with the cyanide fishing problems (several fisheries involved including live marine aquarium fish, live food fish for export, and dead food fish for local consumption). So, I am still hopeful that things can change for the better and that cyanide testing is part of the solution.

First we need to have one or more reliable cyanide test procedures. We need to see what may happen associated with the ReefCheck/MAC CDT effort (RFP announced by David M).

We also recognize that there are other problems that also need to be dealt with, like the high mortality in the trade. So, the problem is not just the use of cyanide in MO fish collection.

There are no Filipino exporters that have been prosecuted for buying and selling cyanide-caught fish that I know about. There have been others (MO collectors and foreign nationals fishing illegally in Philippine waters) prosecuted and convicted based on CDT results. I would guess the number of prosecutions was about 300 and that the number of convictions was less than 100. So, more use of CDT results to support law enforcement is necessary. I agree that exporters also need to be prosecuted for trading either cyanide-caught MO fish or food fish.
I also agree with Naesco that a US-based CDT would help to stop the problem, if it supported the prosecution of importers under the Lacey Act.

Peter

 

[clarionreef]

Peter says;
"I understand that the MAC obtained a grant from the John and Catherine MacArthur Foundation in 2000 to review "chemical detection methods" that was focused on cyanide testing methods. According to MAC's annual reports (still available on their web site) the study was to run from mid-2001 to mid-2003. The grant was in excess of $300,000."

Did any one notice this figure? :roll:
Or has it become the norm to avoid the big stuff and focus on the small?
300k...?
Since when did such a grant become such a ho hum event that it is forgotten?
And to what avail? Are the results...[or non results ] of the project unavailable ?
Steve..

 

[JeremyR]

Someone sent me their fish list today.. and I was super excited to see something I have waited a very long time for.. MAC certified orange spotted filefish! Woohoo! :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

But I thought I read they weren't doing "unsuitable fish" anymore? Now I have to find that post :x

 

[DavidM]

Lots of CDT talk here.

But overall, why do you think MAC should design or fund the CDT product? This would help me understand where we can go with this discussion.

Dave

PS: Wayne, i agree with your points and will discuss them further with colleages and stakeholders.