Question for DR Imports

[rgbmatt]

I am aware they use it in Florida and even hawaii (seen a lot of issues with yellow tangs over the years), pretty sad we preach across the globe for people to use net caught only via MAC and other groups yet still have people using juice here.

Nobody in Hawaii uses drugs. Fishing with any sort of chemical has been illegal here for decades, and we can catch fish just fine without 'em.

Because cyanide fishing is such a well known problem, people tend to use it as a catch-all for all sorts of fish health issues. In reality, there are many different ways to hurt a fish, with rough handling and poor holding facilities the most likely suspects.

If you're getting tangs that are too skinny to survive, then the person you're buying them from has been holding them too long without food. Find another supplier if the one you're getting them from can't clean up his act. Allowing people to mistreat fish like that is bad for everybody (not least the fish).

 

[RichardS]

Well I know that around a year or so ago I was having some problems with Hawaiian Yellow tangs for a period of time. Same deal as swsaltwater is talking about. They came in looking good and ate well but continued to get skinnier. This was on multiple orders from multiple suppliers. It could have been any number of things so I won't go so far as to claim they were cyanide caught but it sure seemed like a possibility.

 

[swsaltwater]

I don't buy the purged theory for the "Pinch" issue, if I stopped feeding my tang I bet it takes week to get as skinny as the majority of them come in. I wonder if they are spending weeks in holding facilities with little or no food. I understand chems are illegal to use in hawaii but so is weed and that does not stop a lot of people........

 

[rgbmatt]

No yellow tangs are caught with chemicals, plain and simple. Legal/moral issues aside, drugs are not an effective way to catch schooling fish that swim in the open. Running down these fish with a squirt bottle simply wouldn't work (think Road Runner vs Wile E. Coyote).

Nobody who collects fish in Hawaii is willing to risk their job by using drugs - the penalties are very severe and would include getting our permits revoked and our boats and equipment confiscated.

I can understand Bob's frustration here. Accusing somebody of cyanide use is not a trivial matter, and just because you got a bad batch of fish at some point doesn't mean you should jump to this conclusion.

 

[swsaltwater]

No one said Hawaii uses Chems, especially cyanide. Here in the US it is tracked I would assume. However, I am sure as with every industry there are those that operate outside the law. I think the yellow tangs are starved far longer then a purging period suggested and thats the issue with em. Who knows how long they ride on a collection boat, how long in holding tanks, etc........Eric or other wholesalers might know. I am sure some collectors are worse then others. The other issue I had in the past with YT is a perfectly healthy for 3 months and falls out with seisures.....Have not seen that in about 5 years but I always "assumed " that was a chemically induced state. Now for all the over reactors on the board I emphasize assume.....

 

[Tropic]

No, i know for a FACT that collectors in Hawaii do not use cyanide to catch there fish, especially yellow tangs, so you shouldnt even be discussing something that is already in a fragile state. God forbid the critics of the fish collection in Hawaii read even about your suggested possibilities, giving them enough of a reason to accuse us of it. Dont say i am overreacting, the opposition we face do not operate under the guise of truisms. Discussions like this make my life and many others lives alot harder. You just dont have a clue, and you dont seem to care. Whats your problem? You are supposed to be in the trade yet you toil with ideas trying to flesh out a problems you and maybe a few others are having. Yellow tangs are not delicate, they are very hardy and thrive in captivity. This is a fact that i, and many, many others know. Its not a mystery.

Personally, i have caught, held and shipped a fair amount of yellows, and i have also been on the recieving end in the past and even still currently. When yellows are collected, purged, shipped and recieved they do have deflated stomachs which i would assume could be called pinched. This is not a problem, more like a procedure necessary in order to properly ship a fish without sending it to its demise. If you are buying emaciated fish past the aforementioned description, you are buying from, and supporting a shabby dealer. There really isnt anything else to know.

If you really want to eliminate the chance of any poor quality yellows entering the trade, pay more for them. Too many retailers build their business on the cheapest fish available. The yellow tang has been reduced to damsel status because this is what the trade/retailers demand. What a frickin shame.

 

[swsaltwater]

I have had emaciated fish from all dealers and my guess is the solution to the poor quality of some yellow tangs is with the wholesalers and their supplier. While it is a lot better then in the past it is still an issue.

I don't care about making the life of suppliers, retailers(myself included), etailers, or transhippers a little bit harder if it helps conservation efforts. Are we not in the hobby cause we love it and the fish/coral and thus should help save the reefs? Are you just in it for money? Do you buy rock and livestock from questionable sources like rock from Haiti when Florida Aquaculture os available but only more expensive? We are consuming a product of the ocean and the environmentalist in me demands that we waste as little as possible in the process. I feel if fixed this hobby is very sustainable, but with all the dead yellow tangs I see, and have seen in the past it only gives more ammo to the snorkel bobs of the world. If no one ask the questions then nothing will ever be fixed. Anyone that makes a living in this hobby should demand more of suppliers to ensure proper handling and net caught only which I am glad Hawaii demands. If saving the reefs of hawaii means 200 dollar yellow tangs I can live with that.

 

[Tropic]

asking questions are fine. Once they are answered, and you keep on keeping on, then one wonders why. Fish in Hawaii are not collected with cyanide. Never have been, never will be. Starved fish is a whole nother topic, but they shouldnt be intermingled because it muddies the water.

about conservation. I find it funny when retailers such as yourself, feel like you are doing something positive for the reefs just because you think you are different then the norm. you are no different. Just because you grow frags, doesnt mean you are eco friendly, in fact, quite the opposite! where does the insane amounts of electricity to power your lights come from?what about the people in third world countries that will get nixed from that source of income? how will they provide? how will they protect the wild reefs? You still sell wild collected fish, regardless if they are collected with care or not. Dont you see that most conservasionist are TOTALLY against keeping animals in aquariums? Some will disagree with this statement, but i think they lack exposure to these types of people and have not had the opportunity to really hear how they think. I and many other collectors in Hawaii really care about the fish and inverts we collect. We have invested into our businesses to give the fish their needed, and deserved care, however at the end of the day, we are still taking fish from their wild habitat. My personal view on it is that i dont think the aquarium trade is doing anything wrong overall. I think we are smaller then we realize and the reefs are bigger then most understand. Some local people in many different countries think its humurous that we keep fish in glass boxes for amusement, as they put them on a plate.

to answer your question about me being in it for the money. YES, I AM!!!
I am a businessman you dolt, as are you. Everyone on this board is in it for the money, hence the forum name " INDUSTRY" behind the hobby.
Does this mean i mistreat animals. NO, it absolutely does not. Do i overfish areas, break corals, squirt cyanide,break the law, and all the things that careless people do, NO, i do not and neither do most other collectors. We are regular American citizens, trying to provide for family, while respecting the opportunities the ocean provides for us.

Right now, i group you with guys like Snorkel Bob. This man is a idiot that disregards the facts of reality, using lies and misinformation as a means to convince masses, and doesnt mind ruining other peoples rights to exist to satisfy his own. If you are getting all these dead fish, that are poorly handled, then dont purchase from those suppliers with your almighty dollar! this corrects the situation.

One more thing. What are your thoughts on airlines killing fish? How are you going to fix this problem? shut down the trade? The fish i collect and sell we lose very, very little.....less then 1% many times no fish at all...however, when the airlines goof up, which they do, fish die. What is the answer to this?

Hypocrisy has no boundaries

 

[swsaltwater]

If I was in it for the money then I would go back to the corporate job making 3 times what i do in a fish store.

 

[Tropic]

Noone's getting rich here pal. This is a labor of love, not just for you, for most everyone in this trade. sure there might be a minority of people who mistakingly thought that the aquarium industry was lucrative, didnt know anything about it, and jumped right in, but not very often. I'd be willing to bet that 9 out of 10 people in this trade, started as hobbyists. When people say "your all about the money" it gets under my skin, as does discussing drug use in Hawaii. It is a difficult business to be involved in, and if you dont love what you do, then you wont make it...most keep going because of obssesions to the animals, and the freedom from traditional lifestyles that are enclosed inside cubicles.

 

[RichardS]

asking questions are fine. Once they are answered, and you keep on keeping on, then one wonders why.

Maybe because your answer doesn't jive with what retailers are seeing. Zero to 1% losses in the brief time you have the fish doesn't mean anything. No one has accused hawaiian fish of being cyanide caught. Instead of listening to what problems retailers are telling you about how some of the fish are doing you freak out and equate them with snorkel bob and whine that you aren't getting paid enough. It reminds me of when I was just getting ready to open a store. I asked a friend/store owner if he had some suppliers he would recommend. He said "They're all full of ****, just try to find some that won't screw you over too bad". At the time, I didn't realize how honest he was being.

I tried ALOT of suppliers in the 6 years I had a store. The only one I really liked dealing with was Gareth at FishHeads. Not because he was perfect but he was perfectly honest. I always appreciated that.

 

[bobimport]

Dear SW saltwater have you EVER had a good fish? ***** ,***** ,***** gees

 

[Tropic]

i guess it doesnt matter that i also own a wholesale operation on the mainland as well. Or that i hold fish that i have collected for extended periods of time. Or that i have pet achilles tangs that eat out of my hand. No sir, i do know how my fish act, and how they turn out. I do listen to retailers.....plenty of them, and guess what they are saying? my fish are solid. Maybe you should listen, because i am pissed about a continual discussion about the possibility of cyanide use to explain why one guy gets shitty yellow tangs....maybe he will end up like you, out of business.

complaining that i dont get enough....that is not what i said. I just thing the yellow tang is to cheap which ends up being the deciding factor for a few guys on how they care for this fish.You know that Hawaii is the MOST expensive place in the US to operate a business. You also realize that gas is the most expensive at 4.30 a gallon. Me, i break even on yellows....literally a favor. I could make money on them, but its not worth it when you compete against lowballers and their whiney customerbase.(retailers (or ex retailers)such as yourself)

 

[RichardS]

....maybe he will end up like you, out of business.

You say that like it's a bad thing. I think you really need a vacation.

 

[swsaltwater]

Dear SW saltwater have you EVER had a good fish? ***** ,***** ,***** gees

Yes I get lots of great fish from good suppliers with an occasional bad shipment, but never a single good one from haiti

 

[bobimport]

Just a point of reference Gas may cost $4.30 in Hawaii but its over $5.00 in the caribbean. I bet in the islands like Tonga its even higher.

 

[PeterIMA]

I heard rumors about 6 years ago that a Filipino had been using cyanide in Hawaii. But, I was told that he left the country, when heat started to be applied and before he was arrested. I have also been told that clorox bleach is being used to capture certain species of food fishes. No one (especially Hawaii DNR) seems to care. At least DNR did not fund a proposal by the IMA to investigate the clorox problem. My guess is if someone is using cyanide in Hawaii, they can get away with it (at least until someone in the trade blows the whistle).

Peter

 

[dizzy]

Thanks Peter for this wonderful example of what a rumor is really all about. I do hope Gresham is paying attention.

 

[PeterIMA]

Dizzy, I think that the rumor was discussed on this forum. Try checking.
Peter

 

[dizzy]

Peter,
Unless you can back it up with hard facts.................what is the point of continuing to spread it? It sort of has the effect of putting a taint on all the collectors in Hawaii.