Zero Degrees of Separation

[JennM]

And I guess that's where we differ, Race.

I have always felt that it was my job to help my customers to care MORE, not less.

Care about where their critters come from and how they are captured and handled all the way through the chain of custody, care more about how they care for their livestock...

And your statement about using multiple facilities/wholesalers is not a surprise - you've stated it here in the past, which is what prompted me to ask about the whole, "OUR" facility thing... it's misleading indeed to the consumer. Not very transparent at all, since the same customers who "don't care" as you put it, probably don't care either about how the stuff was caught, where it came from, how it was handled .... because it's all "guaranteed away"...as you put it.

Does more harm than good, IMO... why promote and encourage ignorance?

I've made my point, readers will take away from it what they choose to.

Jenn

 

[JennM]

Do your customers care where you buy livestock or have it shipped from?? Mine just trust me and my guarantee to do the right thing.

Actually, yes they do. Partly because I take the time to discuss industry issues with people. I usually start off with a new customer by showing them to the books section, and when we're looking at volumes like the Conscientious Marine Aquarist, I show them the section about cyanide collection. I can no more guarantee a cyanide-free wild-caugh fish than anybody else can, but I am particular about my sources, so I have a better likelihood than some, of offering a clean supply. I'm honest about that too.

I'm seeing a lot more folks asking for captive raised fishes, and captive propagated corals. Not, "buy a wild colony and chop it into pieces" propagation, but, "this coral was a wild colony originally and its keeper brought in frags of it to trade", or "We've grown this mother colony from a small frag, and now we take frags now and then from it." or we've bought captive-raised frags and small colonies etc. People are more conscious of this than you might think.

Yep there will always be those who don't know, don't care, all along the chain of custody right to the end-user, and those are the ones who enable the bad practices to continue. So using your word, "stinky"... who stinks worse?

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

O.K.

 

[aquaticvet1]

They do not need to care as long as they know,--- I CARE.-- They are paying me to care and to do the right thing. It is called trust! I think my 28 eight year record of earning trust with clients speaks for itself.

 

[dizzy]

A noble thing QM does is help livestock live by reducing one shipping and acclimation in their journey to the hobbyist. That is admirable, a step in sustainability and a reason not to have government control. QM sees the big picture,----- dropshipping saves lives by reducing shipping and acclimation stress and death. Their model and PAF's(BlueZoo)should be noted by the animal welfare groups and I will make sure they are.

Hey Race please explain how dropshipping reduces one shipping? Surely you don't consider putting a well rested fish or coral in a bag and taking it home from the pet store shipping do you? And BTW when you get stuff shipped into Wisconsin and then ship it out you are actually adding a shipping step compared to brick and mortar retail. I guess what your saying is that dropshipping is less stressful than the model for your Diver's Den stuff. If you really believe that stuff in your above quote then why is your current trend away from that model, at least that's what you have been telling us. I'm confused.
Mitch

 

[aquaticvet1]

Yes dropshipping direct to a consumer is less stressful than another acclimation at Diver's Den and then bagging or shipping again for yet another acclimation.

That is one reason we charge higher prices for Diver's Den. Not only are the specimens better quality to begin with but we suffer mortality while we "really well rest them", many times for weeks to months. The key is --"define well rested". I have yet to find many well rested specimens in this industry and in retail shops. In fact some wholesalers recieve on Monday, turn and burn by Thursday and bleach the systems on Friday for yet another shipment on Monday. Well rested??????? I can guarantee you and the world that Kevin Kohen houses, cares for and ships the very best specimens available in the United States of America. Until you and Jenn come visit our facility, I do not place value on your comments. Please do your homework before you pass judgement.

The trend has been to transship and then increase, NOT REDUCE, livestock inventory turns, all along the way including at the retail shop. That kills livestock and drains the hobbyist's wallets. IMO, the industry cheats the hobbyist and invites the critics!! .

Mitch, you and Jenn merely keep rehashing all the old arguements which already litter this board. The two of you are no doubt better buisness people than I am and lets just leave it at that. You and Jenn win!

 

[aquaticvet1]

Forgot the other part of the question.

The trend is towards Diver's Den in Wisconsin because Chris Buerner at QM will not let us pick from his top items. He refused to let us put Diver's Den in O2O. Unlike PAF he saves most of the cherries for his retail customers. With our DD volume, we also need multiple suppliers. Does shipping to Wisconsin have mortality, absolutely. That may be where Dave and PAF can do better than me and I commend them for their efforts. Right now I do not have that capability, time will tell. This is old news Mitch, please read prior posts.

It should be evident that Kevin Kohen has made an effort to supply Diver's Den items to the elite of the hobby, that is his niche and passion. Kevin is one of the most trusted people in the livestock industry. I trust him too and he has no budget.

Kevin would tell you my message for 2010 is to---- "please buy the best available fish and coral in the industry and offer them for a reasonable price to our customers" ----- " Never question the customer's integrity when they make a guarantee claim".------- " If they buy a $5,000 specimen and want their money returned under my guarantee, please provide the needed help and support and give them their $5,000.00 back ".

If you and Jenn know a better way, please do it. Like I said, you guys are clearly smarter than I am. I am o.k. with that, you and Jenn win again.

 

[dizzy]

Race you're missing the point entirely. Even if the fish are in good shape and treated well prior,....... the shipping can be hard on them. Ammonia can build, PH can drop, temp can go way up or down. Once the fish or corals leave your facility (or Quality) their fate is out of your control, and they are at the mercy of delivery people who often drop boxes instead of bending over to sit them down. And we all know orders can get delayed or lost. I've seen careless handling of fish by delivery people plenty of times. The hobbyist may also not be at home to receive the order in a timely fashion. So someone coming into the store and buying a fish which is then properly bagged should be able to get that fish home to his tank much less stressful than a delivery service. Your Divers Den fish actually get shipped from LA to Wisconsin by third party and then out to the hobbyist again by third party. It is little wonder you lose so much profit replacing fish.

Dropshipping allows you to be able to supply a specimen that has been requested quickly, without having to hope it is in when you place an order. That is an advantage for you over a brick and mortar but it doesn't reduce stress on the fish. Your guarantee may take the risk out of it for the hobbyist, but it damn sure don't for the fish.

 

[JennM]

Dropshipping allows you to be able to supply a specimen that has been requested quickly, without having to hope it is in when you place an order. That is an advantage for you over a brick and mortar but it doesn't reduce stress on the fish. Your guarantee may take the risk out of it for the hobbyist, but it damn sure don't for the fish.

Exactly. Not to mention, Race does not assume the same risk of mortality when buying from the wholesaler - the wholesaler assumes that risk. Race assumes the risk posed by shipping mortality or hobbyist error mortality for the first 14 days, but without having to assume all the overhead of a brick and mortar for silly things like holding tanks and all that stuff. If QM doesn't have it, it's outsourced somewhere else. Either way, it's bagged, shipped and off it goes to whatever fate awaits it. It's not like he's bought 50 green chromis to have a few die, if customer "Joe" orders 5 chromis, 5 are shipped from the wholesaler's assortment. If some die in transit, he credits them for the dead ones... but is he paying for the others that died in "his" facility too? Only in the case of the Diver's Den stuff.

How is that "better" for the fish again?

Race - it's not about "winning" as you keep putting it. It's so much more than that. Too bad you can't seem to see it.

And as for the hobbyists "trusting" in you or whatnot... how many of your customers do you actually know? (Aside from the ones that walk into your B&M?) They don't know you - you don't know them. Occasionally people will go to a forum to ask what others' experience was ordering from X or Y, good or bad, and base their decision there... so things like, "I got in my order and Z was dead, but they gave me a credit" is the typical kind of response you'll see. I've never seen anything posted like, "I trust them implicitly with their collection methods and husbandry." Truth is, most people don't know how it works. Or they don't care.

I've explained it to a few folks, and they were very surprised, and it changed the way they look at things. I've invited plenty of folk to come to this very board and read it for themselves if they don't want to take my word for it. Many have. Opens a lot of eyes, that's for sure.

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

Good points Mitch, but in your words---

" I damn sure would not ship out and guarantee a specimen that I thought was going to die " Dr. Race Foster, Jan. 3, 2010

My guarantee sure seems to get to you and Jenn. As the guy at EXXON said " if you do not like the price of our oil, don't buy it".


The ideal scenario for livestock health would be for me to become a wholesaler and ship directly to the consumer like Dave and PAF do. I know that and so does the rest of the world. In the meantime, I just have to make do and be the best I can be. If you and Jenn do not like the quality of my livestock, or cannot afford it, do not buy it.

 

[aquaticvet1]

Mitch, one more quote--

" Dave and Pacific Aqua Farms have it right. IMO, get rid of the retail and etail accounts and sell livestock direct to the consumer " Dr. Race Foster, Jan.3, 2010.

 

[chris&barb]

Race, im really getting tied of you constantly lumping PAF/BlueZoo together like this. Dave has explained many time how they are two different companies run separately. Yes he own part of both but they are not one and the same, cant you get this?

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Re: Zero Degrees of Separation

Postby Fish_dave » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:47 pm
One thing that should be remembered in this PAF / Blue Zoo drama is that these are two different companies with a common stockholder. Each company is run seperately, if they are profitable it is good for me the stockholder. If Blue Zoo does not succeed and goes out of business it does not affect PAF other than the loss of a customer. If PAF were to go out of business it would not affect Blue Zoo other than they would buy more of their product from a source other than PAF. PAF does not run Blue Zoo, nor does PAF make Blue Zoo policy. I personally give imput to Blue Zoo but the only input that PAF has is as a supplier. Blue Zoo pays their bill to PAF every day, no terms no special deal. Blue Zoo's deal is the same as all of the other internet sellers that PAF sells and the same as all our regular large accounts. If Blue Zoo can buy product on those terms, resell it and turn a profit then good for them, others should be able to do the same.

Much of the product that Blue Zoo offers and is seen as cherry items they are getting from PAF are in fact sourced from other suppliers. The Blue Zoo guys buy from several suppliers unrelated to PAF and get many cherry items that I only wish that I had for sale at PAF. They do also buy from PAF and are in the warehouse everyday looking for quality items. Well over 90% of what Blue Zoo buys from PAF would be considered regular stock bread and butter items. Well over 70% of their collectors choice items are sourced from supply outside of PAF. They hunt for their cherry items.

To say that PAF sells direct to consumers is a stretch. PAF does sell to quite a few internet retailers. It is a much more correct argument to say that I personally sell direct to consumers via the internet through my shareholding in Blue Zoo rather than to say that PAF does. The connection with PAF is via me as a stockholder.

In my opinion it is a much more direct link to be selling direct to the consumer when a wholesaler picks from its own tanks, packages the item, boxes it, delivers it to FEDEX addressed directly to the end consumer such as Quality Marine does for Live Aquaria. At PAF Blue Zoo gives us an order which we pull for them just as with any other wholesale customer, they take the order to their facility and PAF has no more contact with the order. Blue Zoo either ships the animals or puts them in their tanks at their facility for later shipout. The same treatment is offered to any of PAF's customers.

Dave

Fish_dave
Reefkeeper

Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:47 pm
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[aquaticvet1]

Well it goes deeper than PAF/BlueZoo.

Reefermadness was also a part of PAF and that was never disclosed but came to light when Mike Laskey brokered it for sale. I looked at the Reefermadness offering but chose not to sign a disclosure and review the financials as I had no interest in the purchase. My only concern is that as a previous customer of PAF I do not feel that was made clear to me as a paying customer, in fact the PAF/Reefermadness connection was a famous industry denial. PAF retail customers are funding their competition and the largest significant destruction of the retail livestock industry as we know it.

if you are o.k. with that, by all means continue as a customer........but please do not operate in denial.

 

[dizzy]

A noble thing QM does is help livestock live by reducing one shipping and acclimation in their journey to the hobbyist. That is admirable, a step in sustainability and a reason not to have government control. QM sees the big picture,----- dropshipping saves lives by reducing shipping and acclimation stress and death. Their model and PAF's(BlueZoo)should be noted by the animal welfare groups and I will make sure they are.

Race,
I don't have any problem with your guarantee. I only took the time to reply to this thread to point out that dropshipping is not noble and does not reduce one leg of shipping. Dropship to hobbyist= one shipping. Wholesale to retail=one shipping. Retail to hobbyist= zero shipping. Wholesale to Diver's Den = one shipping. Divers Den to hobbyist = one shipping. So in conclusion dropping shipping and retail are equal in stress from the number of domestic flights. Diver's Den fish are shipped twice. So as a consequence twice stressed or once more than retail.

 

[aquaticvet1]

I agree, Dave and PAF/Bluezoo have the best formula, dump the retailers and sell direct. What more do you want me to say ? If I was a wholesaler I would do the same thing.

 

[Anonymous]

A noble thing QM does is help livestock live by reducing one shipping and acclimation in their journey to the hobbyist. That is admirable, a step in sustainability and a reason not to have government control. QM sees the big picture,----- dropshipping saves lives by reducing shipping and acclimation stress and death. Their model and PAF's(BlueZoo)should be noted by the animal welfare groups and I will make sure they are.

Race,
I don't have any problem with your guarantee. I only took the time to reply to this thread to point out that dropshipping is not noble and does not reduce one leg of shipping. Dropship to hobbyist= one shipping. Wholesale to retail=one shipping. Retail to hobbyist= zero shipping. Wholesale to Diver's Den = one shipping. Divers Den to hobbyist = one shipping. So in conclusion dropping shipping and retail are equal in stress from the number of domestic flights. Diver's Den fish are shipped twice. So as a consequence twice stressed or once more than retail.

Perhaps reducing shipping is not the right way to look at it, maybe reducing the number of tanks makes more sense. I am happy to buy animals from DD because they are held and treated and eating well before they are posted.

 

[aquaticvet1]

Mitch, If you can find better quality livestock than offered at Diver's Den, then you should be buying it. And please do not confuse shipping losses of quality livestock with that of transshipped and unacclimated cheap slim. You have been around long enough to know better. Again, Dave has it right, dump the retail accounts and sell direct to the end user. Wish I could do that, maybe someday.

 

[aquaticvet1]

That is why I always mentioned shipping and acclimations. Mitch chose to remember only the shipping. I also would rather guarantee a healthy speciman shipped twice than a turned and burned one shipped once.

I do put my money where my mouth is with my 14 and 30 day guarantee, how about you Mitch?

 

[dizzy]

Perhaps reducing shipping is not the right way to look at it, maybe reducing the number of tanks makes more sense. I am happy to buy animals from DD because they are held and treated and eating well before they are posted.

Well you really can't have it both ways. Either dropshipping is best or feeding, tanking and then reselling is best, but they can't both be best.

 

[aquaticvet1]

Mitch, doesn't that all depend on the initial quality of specimens, the quality of the tanking conditions, general husbandry, shipping and packing quality, and the acclimation procedures including the length of rest, etc, etc ? I think you make it sound too simplistic, as if there are no variables within distribution steps and initial livestock quality.

Personally, I think Kevin Kohen is an absolute master at details all the way through process including livestock selection and delivery to the customer. I do not know how to improve on the process except perhaps becoming a wholesaler and shortening the distribution steps.

Dave and PAF are setting an example for all of us to follow and I am watching and listening to see if it proves successful. If it does, then the livestock industry will be forever changed, I promise.