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Anonymous
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aquaticvet1":2ck4gfz2 said:
"Drs. Foster & Smith Educational Staff" - OOC who are these experts?
Zero Degrees of Separation
- Thread starter wonderreef1
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"Drs. Foster & Smith Educational Staff" - OOC who are these experts?
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Anonymous
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PeterIMA":2pr3wswc said:
Is all that really true though? RC hobby shops went through the same thing as internet stores offered parts and kits for sale, but we still see some hobby shops and the RC market is growing.
It seems there is an odd balance of wanting to support good LFS, but being ok with the bad LFS going away.
I think I wrote this idea once before, but what about a hybrid? A LFS that keeps stock, but also dropships direct to the customer via a wholesaler? The customer orders from the LFS, pays the LFS, but the animal is shipped direct to the customer. There would need to be some web infrastructure developed that that shouldn't be too hard.
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Anonymous
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PeterIMA":1pqv8i58 said:
Other than Petco and Petsmart we no longer have a fish store in town the stocks tanks. The only way to get a tank is to order one online or order in the store and wait a few days for them to get it in on a truck. Almost everyone that I know that got involved with this hobby started out with some sort of impulse buy on a tank. Our last remaining store in town is surviving because they sell a full line of pet supplies.
Race: Do you know how many first time aquarium buyers you get ordering through your site?
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Anonymous
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Thales":108jg7qc said:
I thought about this long ago when I was still in the business. It fell more along the lines of drygoods. I had thought about an in-store kiosk that had high dollar equipment that is tough for a small guy to stock. The customer purchses the stuff through the site and you can have the equipment delivered to them or to the store and then they come pick it up when it arrives.
What's interesting to me is that most LFS owners insist that the old school model is valid, needed and worth supporting. I've even seen owners berate long-time customers for buying on-line. If we realize that we're competing against fantasy based entertainment for attention, shouldn't we try and make our stores a fantasy entertainment experience? Frankly, many stores are full of wild fish (increasingly perceived poorly by the public) doing badly and living in boring, barren tanks. Add to that the combination of heat, humidity. stinkiness and filth and is it any wonder kids go home to play Halo instead of setting up an aquarium? The basic LFS model hasn't changed much in the last few decades, perhaps this is the motivation needed to force LFS owners to rethink their businesses.
Snailman,
Our facility is open for guided tours. If you would like to come, we can show you the facility and you can meet our staff. As with any hobby, in todays world, learning generally begins on the internet. I would guess many first timers go to the web before a lfs. We can debate it all you want, but in reality, I do not care and it will not alter my course.
Our facility is open for guided tours. If you would like to come, we can show you the facility and you can meet our staff. As with any hobby, in todays world, learning generally begins on the internet. I would guess many first timers go to the web before a lfs. We can debate it all you want, but in reality, I do not care and it will not alter my course.
Peter, I do not agree that adding steps of distribution is always needed to keep the livestock properly valued.
If a wholesaler, such as Pacific Aqua Farms, does sell direct to a consumer (which they do) then they should begin with quality specimens ( not cheap), acclimate and observe them for several days to weeks if needed, provide a lengthy (no hassel) guarantee to the consumer, and have a support staff to answer consumer questions and provide information. The expenses to properly do all this will not allow the sale of a cheap and expendable fish or coral. Transshipping and variations thereof, ------ well that is another story.
There needs to be a demand and standard for quality by and within the industry and that will provide the necessary price structure. The problem is not the hobbyist, it is the livestock healthcare cost cutting within the chains of distribution.
If a wholesaler, such as Pacific Aqua Farms, does sell direct to a consumer (which they do) then they should begin with quality specimens ( not cheap), acclimate and observe them for several days to weeks if needed, provide a lengthy (no hassel) guarantee to the consumer, and have a support staff to answer consumer questions and provide information. The expenses to properly do all this will not allow the sale of a cheap and expendable fish or coral. Transshipping and variations thereof, ------ well that is another story.
There needs to be a demand and standard for quality by and within the industry and that will provide the necessary price structure. The problem is not the hobbyist, it is the livestock healthcare cost cutting within the chains of distribution.
Nope, I'm talking about recognizing the core of the aquarium experience. Ever just stare at a nice tank for a while? Feel like you're inside? Is it just like diving? Is the aquascaping inviting you to enter the tank? Are the fish behaving like you would expect to see in the wild? OR...dizzy":35l414yl said:
Is the algae preventing you from having that immersive experience? How about the employee talking loudly on their cell phone? Why are the fish swimming up and down in the corner of the bare cubicle? And what's that icky smell? And why are there dead dried fish on the floor and 8 million signs in every neon color you can imagine? What about getting pushed aside every time someone has to pass cause the aisle is only 3' wide? I could go on but basically every other industry that relies on retail sales has stepped up and recognized that presentation counts( and I'm not just talking about the fish) and people will linger and spend money in physically and psychologically comfortable spaces. I'm not sure why so many LFS' feel that they can ignore the fundamentals of retailing in a bad economy. I suspect that will be corrected as the people who cling to the old models fall by the wayside. Personally, I see a lot of the problem as a throwback to pre-etail times. There was a time when LFS' had to carry all the drygoods for everyone which meant huge capital outlay, lots of space, lots of merchandising admin etc...but there was still margin to be had if you could stock up and sell a bunch of drygoods. This led to cluttered, claustrophobic stores with little space for customers but lots of merhandise and some room preserved for livestock.
Well, times have changed and I'm glad. I am more than happy to let the etailers handle the drygoods now that there's such stiff competition that noone can really make anything except by buying and selling in volume. I think the time has come to drop most of the huge array of barely profitable drygoods and refocus on offering the customer the experience they can't get on-line. Or at least, that's what I'm doing...LOL
There is nothing wrong with a wholesaler selling directly to the end consumer-and there is equally nothing wrong with a retailer buying directly from the collector/exporter 
I think more and more retailers will be trying the direct source approach as time goes on-which will enable them to be directly competetive w/the online folks-more will also be using the internet as an auxilliary marketing/sales tool/outlet.
There are also plenty of customers around (still) for all retail b&m stores, irrespective of whatever the wholesalers are doing.The good ones who know what they're doing, and know WHY and WHAT brings people into a b&m store instead of internet purchasing will always do well, or as well as can be, relative to the state of the overall economy...
Many people simply prefer to still engage in the 'face to face' interaction that comes along with a 'real' store, with real people who are willling to take their time to help them understand how to succeed in the hobby-do not underestimate the value of 'face time'.Many also prefer to see the livestock and the system they're kept in 'face to face' as well.
While i haven't noticed much dropoff in overall sales due to internet 'competition', I have noticed a rather dramatic dropoff in overall newcomers to the hobby (salt and fresh) as a whole, in our area, FAR fewer whole starter setups were sold this year than 5-10 years ago. It seems as if the playstations,xboxes, and economy status have done far more to affect the piece of the consumer pie the b&m aquarium retail industry has enjoyed in the past for startup setups/sales than any internet based ornamental aquatic livestock/drygoods business (Most of which cater to the consumer who already has the basics, and is looking to purchase either livestock only, or upgrade support equipment) has.
Not purchasing from a wholesaler because they sell direct to end consumers isn't what one needs to do to survive and do well in this business-and anyone who thinks that this has/will have a major effect on their retail business is focusing way too much energy barking up the wrong tree, imo.
Some one once told me ''Don't worry about what your competition is doing-worry about what YOU'RE doing". I think one would be hard pressed to find better advice than that.
I think more and more retailers will be trying the direct source approach as time goes on-which will enable them to be directly competetive w/the online folks-more will also be using the internet as an auxilliary marketing/sales tool/outlet.
There are also plenty of customers around (still) for all retail b&m stores, irrespective of whatever the wholesalers are doing.The good ones who know what they're doing, and know WHY and WHAT brings people into a b&m store instead of internet purchasing will always do well, or as well as can be, relative to the state of the overall economy...
Many people simply prefer to still engage in the 'face to face' interaction that comes along with a 'real' store, with real people who are willling to take their time to help them understand how to succeed in the hobby-do not underestimate the value of 'face time'.Many also prefer to see the livestock and the system they're kept in 'face to face' as well.
While i haven't noticed much dropoff in overall sales due to internet 'competition', I have noticed a rather dramatic dropoff in overall newcomers to the hobby (salt and fresh) as a whole, in our area, FAR fewer whole starter setups were sold this year than 5-10 years ago. It seems as if the playstations,xboxes, and economy status have done far more to affect the piece of the consumer pie the b&m aquarium retail industry has enjoyed in the past for startup setups/sales than any internet based ornamental aquatic livestock/drygoods business (Most of which cater to the consumer who already has the basics, and is looking to purchase either livestock only, or upgrade support equipment) has.
Not purchasing from a wholesaler because they sell direct to end consumers isn't what one needs to do to survive and do well in this business-and anyone who thinks that this has/will have a major effect on their retail business is focusing way too much energy barking up the wrong tree, imo.
Some one once told me ''Don't worry about what your competition is doing-worry about what YOU'RE doing". I think one would be hard pressed to find better advice than that.
I agree with the concept of industry contraction. I do not know of one national vendor who has not seen a decline in sales or growth and most began before the economic collapse, many when the economy was at it's best.
I think today it is a combination of factors which includes the economy, competition from other hobbies,time consumption advancements and habits such as Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, the internet in general, video games etc etc.
Additionally, I believe more and more individuals just do not think it is the right thing to do to harvest a fish and especially coral from the ocean for personal economic gain and display purposes. Retail stores and internet practices are clearly visable to the general public and the scene is not always palatable. Discussion boards are littered with plenty of discussions about which segment of the industry kills the most fish and coral and this is all fodder for the general public, it feeds their distaste for the industry.
Lastly, this industry lacks domestic professionalism and a code of conduct concerning animal welfare in general. This makes future growth almost impossible, especially as the soccer mom goes green. We are sloppy in our work where mislabeling and smuggling of specimens makes the news. Contrast this to the rest of the pet trade industry which has continued to grow, where vendors and competitors do not openly fued, where animal welfare standards are improving and in many instances are now State or Federally mandated and controlled. In other words, it is a crime and a shame to mishandle a dog, bird, cow, gerbil or cat but a fish and coral simply remains " transshipable and flushable".
I do not have the answers and I am not optimistic. I always thought that an organization such as AMDA should have focused on these issues rather than attempting to squash the internet competition and divide the industry. They did not though and I guess that is now polluted water over the dam.
Where do we go from here? It will not be solved overseas or with poetry. The decreased demand for our goods is spawned by the consumers right here at home. The pipelines are full of specimens waiting to complete their journey. Problem is, less and less people are willing to buy them. As we wrestle with sustainability issues and discussions,---- Is that a positive or a negative?????
Race
I think today it is a combination of factors which includes the economy, competition from other hobbies,time consumption advancements and habits such as Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, the internet in general, video games etc etc.
Additionally, I believe more and more individuals just do not think it is the right thing to do to harvest a fish and especially coral from the ocean for personal economic gain and display purposes. Retail stores and internet practices are clearly visable to the general public and the scene is not always palatable. Discussion boards are littered with plenty of discussions about which segment of the industry kills the most fish and coral and this is all fodder for the general public, it feeds their distaste for the industry.
Lastly, this industry lacks domestic professionalism and a code of conduct concerning animal welfare in general. This makes future growth almost impossible, especially as the soccer mom goes green. We are sloppy in our work where mislabeling and smuggling of specimens makes the news. Contrast this to the rest of the pet trade industry which has continued to grow, where vendors and competitors do not openly fued, where animal welfare standards are improving and in many instances are now State or Federally mandated and controlled. In other words, it is a crime and a shame to mishandle a dog, bird, cow, gerbil or cat but a fish and coral simply remains " transshipable and flushable".
I do not have the answers and I am not optimistic. I always thought that an organization such as AMDA should have focused on these issues rather than attempting to squash the internet competition and divide the industry. They did not though and I guess that is now polluted water over the dam.
Where do we go from here? It will not be solved overseas or with poetry. The decreased demand for our goods is spawned by the consumers right here at home. The pipelines are full of specimens waiting to complete their journey. Problem is, less and less people are willing to buy them. As we wrestle with sustainability issues and discussions,---- Is that a positive or a negative?????
Race
Race, I agree with most of your comments in the previous post. I had hoped that the aquarium trade (all parts) could change voluntarily. I hoped that the Marine Aquarium Council (MAC) would help set standards that the trade would adopt. I long ago gave up on that idea (from watching what they did and did not do).
I believe that governments will set stiffer fish health and quarantine strandards. Dirtly lists to ban the sale of species that are a threat to the environment also come to mind. I recently dowloaded and read the EU fish health regulations. LIkewise, I obtained the methods for disease diagnoses set by the OIE. I also corresponded with OFI to get their take on the EU regulations concerning pathogenic diseases. While more regulation concerning the trade in aquatic organisms may not be popular with the trade, I believe they are necessary. However, these regulations probably will increase the cost of aquatic organisms to those in the COC and for aquatic hobbyists.
Peter Rubec
I believe that governments will set stiffer fish health and quarantine strandards. Dirtly lists to ban the sale of species that are a threat to the environment also come to mind. I recently dowloaded and read the EU fish health regulations. LIkewise, I obtained the methods for disease diagnoses set by the OIE. I also corresponded with OFI to get their take on the EU regulations concerning pathogenic diseases. While more regulation concerning the trade in aquatic organisms may not be popular with the trade, I believe they are necessary. However, these regulations probably will increase the cost of aquatic organisms to those in the COC and for aquatic hobbyists.
Peter Rubec
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I am fascinated in the current notions that one does not have to "hold back, show descipline and restraint, do the right thing, behave, self regulate and support sustainable methodologies" in the pursuit of easier sales at any cost.
I imagine that is in fact the definition of streamlined, free and unfettered capitalism and commerce.
On an entirely seperate subject being woven into the same threads we are advised that the consumer is interested in going green.
Really? When did this happen?
The consumer never insisted on green methods and never supported netcaught fish in any percentile approaching 1%.
This translated in the retailers not taking netcaught fishes seriously as well.
This translated in wholesalers not taking netcaught fishes seriously as well.
This translated in the public aquariums not taking netcaught fishes seriously as well.
This translated in the aquarium focused NGOs not taking netcaught fishes seriously as well.
But now, a short-cut direct to hobbyist distribution from importers wharehouses will somehow go green and fix it all?
In a everything goes...throw out the rulebook race for sales....how does training, education and reform in fishing villages somehow happen?
Am confused.
Its early out here in California. I must have missed something.
I imagine that is in fact the definition of streamlined, free and unfettered capitalism and commerce.
On an entirely seperate subject being woven into the same threads we are advised that the consumer is interested in going green.
Really? When did this happen?
The consumer never insisted on green methods and never supported netcaught fish in any percentile approaching 1%.
This translated in the retailers not taking netcaught fishes seriously as well.
This translated in wholesalers not taking netcaught fishes seriously as well.
This translated in the public aquariums not taking netcaught fishes seriously as well.
This translated in the aquarium focused NGOs not taking netcaught fishes seriously as well.
But now, a short-cut direct to hobbyist distribution from importers wharehouses will somehow go green and fix it all?
In a everything goes...throw out the rulebook race for sales....how does training, education and reform in fishing villages somehow happen?
Am confused.
Its early out here in California. I must have missed something.
Hey Steve, good questions. And I want to thank everyone for making this discussion both informative and informed. I personally think that while net-caught is 'greener' it isn't perceived by the public as green enough to embrace. It's still wild fish, from a wild reef and while those already in the hobby and industry understand the net caught difference, the general public deals mainly in simple sound bytes. It's apparently too complicated to have good wildcaught versus bad wildcaught.
Here is what you missed. The overall domestic demand for fish and coral, regardless of how they are plucked from the ocean, stored and marketed appears to be fading. We can only speculate as to why and have done so in above posts.
To compensate, some wholesalers, namely Pacific Aqua Farms via BlueZoo have elected to sell direct to the consumer thus bypassing the LFS(retail store) . This removes steps in the distribution process and at the expense of retailers, may allow PAF to increase profits. I see nothing wrong with their decision as long as they remain honest to their customers.
I do not know how to say it any simpler.
To compensate, some wholesalers, namely Pacific Aqua Farms via BlueZoo have elected to sell direct to the consumer thus bypassing the LFS(retail store) . This removes steps in the distribution process and at the expense of retailers, may allow PAF to increase profits. I see nothing wrong with their decision as long as they remain honest to their customers.
I do not know how to say it any simpler.
We both hurt the retailer. PAF(BlueZoo) and LiveAquaria.com are direct competitors looking to cut into the traditional retailers business. Not sure who hurts retailers more but my guess is that PAF is much larger than LiveAquaria.com. In any event, we both want your business Mitch.
The difference is this, and it is a big one. I do not expect the retailer to buy from LiveAquaria.com/Foster and Smith nor do I want their business --------- but I believe PAF/BlueZoo does hope to continue servicing the retail sector while at the same time, directly competing with them for livestock sales to the consumer. I do think it is a conflict of interest in their business plan and I would not have done it. I elect not to support them as they are now a direct competitor of Diver's Den and our Wisconsin facility as well as every retailer and etailer in the country. With some of the same ownership in PAF and BlueZoo they basically gave a reason for etailers as well as retailers to not buy from PAF. For retailers or etailers to support them would be business suicide. I respect their decision though and wish them well.
The difference is this, and it is a big one. I do not expect the retailer to buy from LiveAquaria.com/Foster and Smith nor do I want their business --------- but I believe PAF/BlueZoo does hope to continue servicing the retail sector while at the same time, directly competing with them for livestock sales to the consumer. I do think it is a conflict of interest in their business plan and I would not have done it. I elect not to support them as they are now a direct competitor of Diver's Den and our Wisconsin facility as well as every retailer and etailer in the country. With some of the same ownership in PAF and BlueZoo they basically gave a reason for etailers as well as retailers to not buy from PAF. For retailers or etailers to support them would be business suicide. I respect their decision though and wish them well.
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