Help Help Help With My Cycle Help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[UNICORN]

Coral I.d?

well lets start off by saying that iam new to this but i already love it.


iam going on 8 weeks of trying to cycle my tank
i have a 15 g eclipse tank it has the bio wheel filtration wich i know is the verry"" basic"" lol i know this is verry small and i know compared to what you guys do i look dum take pitty on me

i beleave the kit comes with the blue & white lighting

well i used instant ocean & live sand and i also have two big pices of fiji live rock and sum smaller pices & i put some damsels in the tank a week into it some pepole say not to use fish when cycling and some say its the best way iam confused as you gather the damsels died along time ago lol


well now i have a clown fish and two feather duster

this is were i am now

levels in the morning without treatment

amonia 0.p
nitrite 5 p
ph 8.0/8.2
salt 1.023
75 dg

levels with treatment
using amquel 3 times the recomended dossage

amonia o.p
nitrite 1 p
ph 8.4
78 dg

question 1. is using chemicals to lower the nitrites bad when trying to cycle tank if so why the pet store incoureged me to do so! if i should not continue to use chemicals what do i do about the fish and the nitrite levels should i just let them fester in that toxic mess??????? until they lower them selves?????

question 2. is it normall under my conditions to be 8 weeks into this tank still trying to cycle it?
* i have mad a big mistake that may contribute to this in the bigining when i wanted to lower the nitrites i would do 40 to 50 % water changes wich iam sure has some thing to do with this issue i think lolol? please help a new person trying to enjoy this beautiful but costly hobby with your help if i dont drown myself in my own tank one day i might try to do corals :iamwithst

 

[Bob 1000]

The amquel might be preventing the cycle, you'll have to let nature take it's course.. Find a temp home for you fish though..

 

[UNICORN]

Oh Man!!!!

:splitspinWOW IAM SO UPSET I WISH I WOULD HAVE KNOWN NOW WHAT IAM GOING TO DO IS KEEP THE FISH I KNOW CRUEL BUT ....

IAM GOING TO DO 10 /15 % WATER CHANGES AND USE VERRY LITTLE OF AMQUEL VERRY LITTLE . WILL THE TANK STILL CYCLE?

 

[duke62]

dont use anything let it cylcle.

 

[UNICORN]

thanx

thank you i wont use it anymore iall just do small water changes hope for the best
if the fish die i will not put any more in nor will i use amquel to help finish the cycle

now if my tank ever cycles when is it proper to use amquel ? or should i just never ever use it again:iamwithst

 

[MikeyZO]

If I understand Amquel correctly, it uses a chemical reaction to change amonia and nitrites to nitrates. The problem with using this in a non cycled tank is that you are hindering the food source of the beneficial bacteria from building up which is what will naturally keep the amonia and nitrites broken down. So yes, in a way, you are hindering mother nature from taking its course and allowing your tank to come to the proper equilibrium on its own.

Amquel should (again if I understand it correctly), only be used in an emergency maintenance situation, and only as a last resort. And even then, I would recommend against using any such chemicals as a means of fixing tank problems. A good routine and understanding of your tank will keep emergencies from happening and help you understand what caused them and how to fix them without chemicals in the event that they do happen.

 

[duke62]

DONT USE ANYTHING.since i started reefing i was told to do all natural ways to help with any problem.since then everything in my tanks are always on point.its sort of like those "well get you skinny just take this pill" when all people need is to stop eating crap

 

[Pedro Nuno Ferreira]

:sleeping:Hi Unicorn
It's 2:05 am (over here of course on this side of the Atlantic, GMT - greenwich mean time zone - Europe) but I didn't want to log out before answering your thread, but misterously your posts disapeared...any way they're back :flower:

question 1. is using chemicals to lower the nitrites bad when trying to cycle tank if so why the pet store incoureged me to do so! if i should not continue to use chemicals what do i do about the fish and the nitrite levels should i just let them fester in that toxic mess??????? until they lower them selves?????

Because a pet store sells products so they encourage you to buy them. Also this does not mean that the pet store meant bad, it simply provided you with a product that may be used for emergency situations or for exhibit situations in which case you do not have the time to cycle the tank. Now you should not be surprised that things are taking longer than expected, because you simply are not letting it happen, which means that for the biological cycle to occur and install itself, bacteria have to be there and for bacteria to be there you have to place some live rock and/or live sand or a bit of live sand given to you by another hobbyist that has a biologically mature tank. This will then start the whole thing in a sequence like this (simplified version), about the Nitrogen cycle in more detail, have a look here. This takes its time and when complete, you may add the animals slowly so that the system as time to adjust to the new biological load, and so one.
Preferably you should ask a reef hobbyist to house temporarily your fish in her/his tank or the pet store for that matter. Should this prove not feasible, then keep them and feed as little as possible, and perform small water changes some two time a week, like 5% or less. Progressively the nitrogen cycle will install it self.

question 2. is it normall under my conditions to be 8 weeks into this tank still trying to cycle it?
* i have mad a big mistake that may contribute to this in the bigining when i wanted to lower the nitrites i would do 40 to 50 % water changes wich iam sure has some thing to do with this issue i think lolol? please help a new person trying to enjoy this beautiful but costly hobby with your help if i dont drown myself in my own tank one day i might try to do corals :iamwithst

Now you probably understand why I mentioned above for you to perform small water changes...simply because you don't want to disturb the Nitrogen Cycle process more than needed, which in this case the need would be the presence of the fish. Relax, have a Pepsie which I know you like, and let nature follow its course...and yes you will end up with corals faster that it takes you to anticipate it

Cheers
Pedro Nuno ;-)
Post Scriptum: By the way its now 2:40 am, so:sleeping:

 

[UNICORN]

thanx thanx thanx

at least i know now whats going on i will not use amquel anymore
its only meant for emegency cases only wow iave gone threw 3or 4 bottles of the stuff iam a dummy i will keep you guys posted iam sure my fish will not make it but hopefully without me disturbing the cycle it should fix itself thanx a million xxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo:duh::tongue1:

 

[ReeferMadness99]

Yeah, I'm pretty new here too but it seems like your not giving the beneficial nitrifying bacteria any chance to populate the tank and mature. By using the chemical, your "imitating" a false nitrogen cycle with chemicals and when thats gone, your still left without the bacteria needed to complete the natural cycle.

 

[ellebelle]

Where in New York are you? It is possible there is a member nearby who could keep your clownfish and featherduster for you until your cycle is complete.

 

[marrone]

A lot of time these products will throw off the testing and give you false results, as if you have high levels while the product is actually working. I would think in 8 week the tank would have cycle, especially with such a small tank and small bio-load too.

How long have you had the clown and feather duster, and how are they acting? Is the Feather duster open and is the clown swimming around or hanging near the top of the tank or is it rubbing against the rocks?

 

[KathyC]

Can you look at the bottle and post it you are using AmQuel or Amquel+
It makes a difference.

 

[Pedro Nuno Ferreira]

Hi Unicorn ;-)

here you find some of the reason why KathyC is asking you to check on the bottles of the product

and here is an explanation given by the manufacturer about the comparison between both AmQuel and AmQuel+ (also transcribed below), and some more information

A Comparison Between AmQuel and AmQuel+
The two products have similar names and are in the same family of chemicals. However, they are different chemical formulas and have major differences in what they do. Both AmQuel (see KPD-51 ) and AmQuel+ (see KPD-79 ) are reasonably priced considering what they accomplish, but AmQuel+ carries out more tasks and is slightly more expensive.

The Characteristics that both share
The similarities are that both AmQuel and AmQuel+ are fast acting in what they do, accomplishing their tasks within about five minutes after being added to water. Neither AmQuel nor AmQuel+ affect aquatic life, or interfere with the bacteria associated with the nitrogen cycle. Both AmQuel and AmQuel+ eliminate chlorine from the water, such as added by public water suppliers. Both Amquel and AmQuel+ break down chloramines that come in to the aquarium or pond from having been added to the tap water by water suppliers. The ingredients of chloramines are chlorine and ammonia, both highly toxic to aquatic life. Both AmQuel and AmQuel+ in one dose will remove all chlorine and chloramines that are added by municipal and other water suppliers. AmQuel+ will remove over 30 ppm chlorine per dose (one teaspoon per 10 gallons of water), far beyond what any water supplier will use, which may be up to 3 ppm). Most chloramines contain less than 1.0 ppm ammonia. Both AmQuel and AmQuel+ remove all forms of ammonia that are natural in ponds and aquaria. At the dose of one teaspoon per 10 gallons of water AmQuel will remove one part per million ammonia, AmQuel+ will remove a greater amount, at least 1.2 ppm, and usually more than that. Both AmQuel and AmQuel+ remove some of the other nitrogenous organic compounds that are common in aquaria and ponds, with AmQuel+ removing a much greater amount per dose. The Characteristics that are different between them
Odor: AmQuel has no odor. AmQuel+ does, which some consider to be acerbic. But the odor is harmless to aquatic life, pets and humans, etc., and quickly dissipates.

Removal of Nitrites, Nitrates, and other Organics: AmQuel removes (actually detoxifies) a slight amount of Nitrites and Nitrates and other related organics, but less than 1 ppm, and not enough to be significant. AmQuel+ removes (detoxifies) both Nitrites and Nitrates, and is very different from AmQuel in taking out hefty amounts of these toxic compounds per dose (see Product Data Sheet KPD-79 for AmQuel+ for more information). Therefore, AmQuel+ can take care of the toxicity of the entire nitrogen cycle by detoxifying them - ammonia through nitrites through nitrates, yet still leave the remains available to the nitrifying and other beneficial bacteria to consume them. The beneficial bacteria do not know the difference and eat the nitrogenous compounds that AmQuel+ has provided. This is a major advantageous breakthrough in aquarium and pond keeping in being able to eliminate the toxicity of the entire nitrogen cycle to fishes and aquatic invertebrates . Also, AmQuel+ reduces or removes a range of toxic nitrogenous compounds that otherwise build up in older aquariums and ponds. This allows the need for water changes to be less frequent, which can be a great saving in time and expense.
Affect on pH (Acidity/Alkalinity) of the Water: The AmQuel+ formula is not acidic and its chemical content when added to water does not affect pH. Conversely, the AmQuel formula is acidic. While adding a teaspoon of AmQuel per 10 gallons of water has slight affect on the pH of normal water, it can be an adverse problem, such as to fish in shipping bags in long distance shipments. Due to the excretions of the fish, the water becomes ever more acidic over time. For shipping, AmQuel needs a pH buffer to keep the pH from going more acidic than otherwise would happen. AmQuel+ does not affect the pH, and removes most of the excretions that would otherwise acidify the water in shipping bags, as well as normally in aquariums and ponds.
Any product that removes ammonia may have an adverse affect on aquatic life in exceptionally soft water (water with a very low level of mineralization). The reason is that the ammonia in the water is acting as a buffer to keep the pH in balance at a higher pH level than what it otherwise would be. When the ammonia is removed from the water lacking a buffer - the water quickly drops in pH, stressing and possibly killing the aquatic life. Therefore, care has to be taken in removing ammonia from aquaria and ponds with low mineralization (hardness) in the water. There are claims for some ammonia-removing products that they do not affect pH under any circumstances. However, if they remove ammonia, there is no way that very soft water with ammonia is not going to destabilize and quickly become more acidic......




Which Water Conditioners to use for eliminating ammonia, nitrites and nitrates
There is one Kordon product that is preeminent in removing (detoxifying) the organic compounds that are involved in the nitrogen cycle (see KPD-64 "Biological Filtration") and this is Kordon Amquel+ (see description in the Kordon Reference Guide about AmQuel+, and KPD-79 "on AmQuel+"). If only the removal of ammonia is involved, then the less expensive Kordon AmQuel can be used.

Any way, other members have already said it...by using this product, you are preventing the installation of the needed bacteria and the nitrogen cycle that they promote.

Cheers
Pedro Nuno ;-)

Post Scriptum : Did you relax and had a Pepsi?...enjoy the music also in the Pepsi link ;-)

 

[meschaefer]

Where in New York are you? It is possible there is a member nearby who could keep your clownfish and featherduster for you until your cycle is complete.

New York is a big place... where are you? If your near me (Astoria), I could put the clowns in my holding tank for you.

 

[UNICORN]

??????

well i put away the amquel you guys lol.
i did a 25 % water change on saterday on tuesday iall do a 5% water change & hope my fish wont explode from the high nitrites lol.....

? how long do you guys think it will take for me to see the nitrites start to go down on there own?



iave been using amquel +

iave had the feather dusters and the clown in there for a week & 1/2

the feather dusters are bloomed and are reactive to touch
the clown rubs himself on the rocks and at night sleeps at the top on his side and he eats hardy so far ....is this good or bad? ellebelle thanx

my levels as of today nitrite 5.o p omg
amonia o.p
salt 1.023
ph 8.3
78 dg

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

It is unknown. Best thing to do is to get the livestock out of your tank as it is still caught in mid cycle. It really isn't fair for them to be caught in an acid bath til your tank finished it's cycle.

 

[marrone]

Like Chief said, it's best to take the clown out of the tank. Also don't do anymore water changes. Leave the tank alone and the nitrites will go down on their own. And don't put anything else in the tank, chemicals or live stock, just leave the tank alone.

 

[UNICORN]

?????

ok you guys i have not used any chemichals today but i contacted amquel + kord:irkedn comp.... i spoke with there DR .something lol and he told me that amquel dose not interfier with the nitrifing bacteria in my tank he said that i could continue to use it and that more than likely my liguid test is faulty and can not properly test the water!!! he thinks that if my nitrite levels were really 5.o ppm my fish would already be dead he said if my fish were eating and did not apear stressed not to worry. he recommended a water test kit of course from kordon .

iam verry confused and i dont know who or what to listen to i know you guys have so much more experience than i do so iam not going to use chemichals to rid of nitrites because according to the great DR at kordon my tank is cycled and iam just getting a faulty reading

? is this man crazzy
? iam i crazzy lol
?could he be right and my tank is cycled and i just need a new test kit?
? has anyone come across this problem getting faulty test using amquel+

 

[marrone]

It's very possible that you're test kit isn't giving you a good reading or the amquel+ is causing the reading to be off, what kit are you using? You would think that after all that time you're tank would be cycled, especially since it's such a small tank.

The best thing to do is just leave the tank alone, no more chemical or water changes. Get a new kits and see if you're reading are different. It's very possible your tank is cycled and everything is ok.