Nanobbules and strawman arguments

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Charley

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It's simply how you make the argument that can rub people the wrong way.... "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar"

In the end, you wind up having the opposite effect of your very good intentions as people dig in and become defensive. There is more than 1 way around the block. Suggest finding another way and you will have much better effect. Not everyone likes getting punched in the nose.

I should know better, but I am sucker for punishment:)
 

lnevo

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So, just in defense of my surge device comment earlier and in defense overall of the myth that microbubbling is harmful...

Source: ReefKeeping Magazine
Author: Eric Borneman
URL: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-01/eb/



Myth 14: Microbubbles are to be avoided.

Many aquarists go to some considerable lengths to baffle sumps and pump flows to prevent small bubbles from being returned into the display tank. It has been suggested that such bubbles represent an irritation to fish, corals and other invertebrates and that they should be avoided. To be honest, I am unsure from where the origin of this perception came. However, it is untrue. Even the name is inaccurate? the prefix "micro" would refer to bubbles too small to see.


The onslaught of bubbles from this oncoming wave should make it apparent that
corals and coral reefs exist just fine with the presence of air bubbles in the water.
Small bubbles are very common in tumultuous reef environments, and areas where waves break are often dense with both reef life and small bubbles. In addition, in tanks and on reefs, many bubbles of various sizes, including true "microbubbles" are produced by photosynthesis, and this is especially the case in highly illuminated environments. In my own aquaria, a constant rise of bubbles, especially in the afternoon, are produced by various corals and algae in even some of my less-illuminated systems. Larger bubbles frequently get sucked into pump intakes, and are chopped up to even smaller sizes and distributed throughout the tank. I won't even begin to discuss the massive numbers of bubbles produced by various surge devices. These water motion devices have great benefits in aquaria, and even as anecdotal aquarium observations, I have never seen anything disturbed, irritated, or harmed by the rush of bubbles.

Potential: Relatively harmless. Neither bubbles nor the lack of them in a tank is likely to endanger the health or survival of organisms.

Distribution: A patchy, but common belief.
 

NYreefNoob

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thales i have read through the whole thread on r2r. one of the things about the internet and postings is it is hard to read how someone feels, because you are un-able to see facial and body expression's. to be honest you jumped on that person's thread and came off negetive was what i percieved. it's not easy truelly reading between the lines on here. i do understand what you was trying to point out to the op about growth ect of his corals. and that he wasn't trying to truelly grab what you were saying, but instead taking it on the defensive side of it. the larger part of the hobbiest cannot give you a scientifical explaination or data as we dont have the ability or possibly the knowledge to gather and confirm such claims we may make other then what we physically see within our own tanks. Most on here who know me know i have tried alot of oddball thing's in the hobby. some with success some with failure. what works for one may not work for another and we all know this. how many people know the dominating strain of bacteria in our system ? and the effect it may play with trying something. i have used, tested and beta'd over 30 skimmers over the year's. i can give personal experiance and thought's on them and different one's but i cannot give you scientific data. but does that take away from my knowledge of skimmers and the difference in them ?
 

Thales

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It's simply how you make the argument that can rub people the wrong way.... "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar"

In the end, you wind up having the opposite effect of your very good intentions as people dig in and become defensive. There is more than 1 way around the block. Suggest finding another way and you will have much better effect. Not everyone likes getting punched in the nose.

I should know better, but I am sucker for punishment:)
What is funny about that is then you get blamed for being a fake. Trust me, for years I used to follow many posts with :biggrin: and started getting **** for it. Amazing.
I also don't get how being straightforward is like being punched in the nose. I think people only feel punched in the nose if they already feel defensive. If that is the game, then no one will ever win. You and I had some exchanges that made me feel like you were coming after me...I re read it with the most charitable interpretation and we have had some interesting discussions. It is really easy.
 

Thales

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So, just in defense of my surge device comment earlier and in defense overall of the myth that microbubbling is harmful...

Source: ReefKeeping Magazine
Author: Eric Borneman
URL: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-01/eb/
I am pretty much with you here. Eric is saying that bubbles are generally not harmful and I agree completely. I have even gone to bat for that several times. What he gets wrong is the possibility of supersaturation and cavitation causing gas bubble disease - this is a real and very documented issue. Bubbles in general, you'll get no argument from me. :D

Further, these guys are talking about nanobubbles, not micro bubbles. Even worse they are using the terms interchangeably.
 

Thales

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thales i have read through the whole thread on r2r. one of the things about the internet and postings is it is hard to read how someone feels, because you are un-able to see facial and body expression's.
Sure. Why am I the only one being taken to task for this issue? Others in those threads have been really icky and no one says a thing.

to be honest you jumped on that person's thread and came off negetive was what i percieved.
That is weird to me. I am a member there - am I not supposed to post? It is very strange that simple disagreement is thought to be negative.

it's not easy truelly reading between the lines on here.
I think trying to read between the lines is part of the problem. Why try to guess what people 'really' mean - why not instead just look at what they wrote?

i do understand what you was trying to point out to the op about growth ect of his corals. and that he wasn't trying to truelly grab what you were saying, but instead taking it on the defensive side of it.
Whew! Thanks!

the larger part of the hobbiest cannot give you a scientifical explaination or data as we dont have the ability or possibly the knowledge to gather and confirm such claims we may make other then what we physically see within our own tanks.
For sure, and no one is asking for a robust double blind study, but for documentation that any hobbyist can do. Really! I wish my next article was published already, it goes over this. :D
Jumping from observation to conclusion is something to be careful of doing.

Most on here who know me know i have tried alot of oddball thing's in the hobby. some with success some with failure. what works for one may not work for another and we all know this.
Great! That has nothing to do with jumping from observation to conclusion and the claiming of knowledge that can't possibly be known.

how many people know the dominating strain of bacteria in our system ? and the effect it may play with trying something.
Yes! I think bacteria and bacterial loads may be the next big lake of information for us.

i have used, tested and beta'd over 30 skimmers over the year's. i can give personal experiance and thought's on them and different one's but i cannot give you scientific data. but does that take away from my knowledge of skimmers and the difference in them ?
A little. This is why Ken Feldman et al did their skimmer studies. :D

Thanks for chiming in!
 

Charley

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I think I can understand.....somebody with all your experience, knowledge and years of hard work, some if not most of what you read must make you crazy. Took me quite a while, as you know, to see where you were coming from and a very good learning experience for me. But I took the time to bicker with you, read your history, articles, etc:. I stopped the discussion because even I "felt" like I was coming after you in re-reading my answers. My arguments were not cohesive after the first response or 2 but did learn something in the end. Never, never would I want someone to feel like I was coming after them. Consider myself a pretty good guy and I like to think I am someone who is enjoyable to discuss matters with even if over my head:) Which is most often the case. So, I suggest with the best of intentions to perhaps maybe consider not being so straightforward at the outset just because I know how excited you are to get your point across to as many people as possible. But will only work if they are open to listening and not immediately be put on the defensive:)
 

NYreefNoob

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A little. This is why Ken Feldman et al did their skimmer studies. :biggrin:
i was hoping you would point that out.i actually have the simplist mod for a skimmer to change how it works but never got around to trying to patent it because i know it would be cloned easily.
i tested for a major company and was shot down on posting my results and opinion. they didn't like my opinion of their product or my suggestions on how to improve it and where they went wrong. guess thats what happens when you already mass produced something and cant make the changes afterwards. while skimz took my opinion and made changes to the skimmer.


i also caught where the op is in the process of trying to make a micro bubble maker and then stated where he didnt want to buy the one that is made cause of cost, but will try to imitate it and will be trying to market it lol im pretty good at reading between the line's.
 

lnevo

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Further, these guys are talking about nanobubbles, not micro bubbles. Even worse they are using the terms interchangeably.

This is a great point and I wish there was a more documented measure of bubbles :) in Eric's article he even says

Even the name is inaccurate? the prefix "micro" would refer to bubbles too small to see.
Now whether we can ever even agree on what size these bubbles we're referring to are is altogether another question.

If I get the gist of you're upcoming article, it may cover how a hobbyist can contribute data of this type in a scientific way? This is something that should be stickied/pinned on every forum out there.

It would be interesting to have some kind of knowledge base where people can submit observations so they can be collected, analyzed, reviewed and compiled into meaningful and useful data. Oh Josh.... :)
 

WTBClownfish

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Thales get over it. If everyone is telling you the same thing there must be some truth to it. You were told you were being a baby on the R2R thread so you come here to complain. Your are being called a baby here and it is still everyone else's fault.

" Why am I the only one being taken to task for this issue? Others in those threads have been really icky and no one says a thing."

They might communicate better then you.
 

Thales

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Thales get over it.
Nah. This is pretty much what this thread is for, to discuss stuff like this.

If everyone is telling you the same thing there must be some truth to it.
Everyone is not telling me the same thing, and factually quite a few people are agreeing with me.

You were told you were being a baby on the R2R thread so you come here to complain.
No one called me a baby. Again, this is my forum, and this kind of discussion is one of the things this forum is for.

Your (sic)are being called a baby here
No one is calling me a baby here - well maybe except for you.

and it is still everyone else's fault.
Nah. It is the fault of the two, maybe three people over there.

" Why am I the only one being taken to task for this issue? Others in those threads have been really icky and no one says a thing."

They might communicate better then you.
LOL
 

Thales

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I think I can understand.....somebody with all your experience, knowledge and years of hard work, some if not most of what you read must make you crazy. Took me quite a while, as you know, to see where you were coming from and a very good learning experience for me. But I took the time to bicker with you, read your history, articles, etc:. I stopped the discussion because even I "felt" like I was coming after you in re-reading my answers. My arguments were not cohesive after the first response or 2 but did learn something in the end. Never, never would I want someone to feel like I was coming after them. Consider myself a pretty good guy and I like to think I am someone who is enjoyable to discuss matters with even if over my head:) Which is most often the case. So, I suggest with the best of intentions to perhaps maybe consider not being so straightforward at the outset just because I know how excited you are to get your point across to as many people as possible. But will only work if they are open to listening and not immediately be put on the defensive:)
I hear you and thanks. This is why I keep pressing.

Sometimes I sugar coat more. Sometimes I don't. Always an experiment. :D
 

WTBClownfish

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Nah. This is pretty much what this thread is for, to discuss stuff like this.



Everyone is not telling me the same thing, and factually quite a few people are agreeing with me.



No one called me a baby. Again, this is my forum, and this kind of discussion is one of the things this forum is for.



No one is calling me a baby here - well maybe except for you.



Nah. It is the fault of the two, maybe three people over there.



LOL
Yes a forum is for people to discuss items so stop crying when people disagree with you and don't want to deal with your shitty attitude. You must be to stupid to read between the lines but people are calling you a baby.
 

Thales

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This is a great point and I wish there was a more documented measure of bubbles :) in Eric's article he even says



Now whether we can ever even agree on what size these bubbles we're referring to are is altogether another question.
In some of the nanobubble stuff the define the size of these bubbles. I haven't even touched on the credibility of that stuff though.

If I get the gist of you're upcoming article, it may cover how a hobbyist can contribute data of this type in a scientific way? This is something that should be stickied/pinned on every forum out there.
It isn't a recipe for how to do it, more tying to convince people they should do it. I'll be interested to see what you think of it.
Thanks for the kind words.

It would be interesting to have some kind of knowledge base where people can submit observations so they can be collected, analyzed, reviewed and compiled into meaningful and useful data. Oh Josh.... :)
Yeah, it would be great. We have talked about cataloguing all the reef stuff out there, but it is a major project that I don't know if I have time for. :D
 

Thales

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Yes a forum is for people to discuss items so stop crying when people disagree with you and don't want to deal with your shitty attitude. You must be to stupid to read between the lines but people are calling you a baby.
I'm not crying, I am exploring a topic that is of interest to me. If you don't like it you don't have to post here. I am happy to have you post here, but not if you are going to be a combative ****** canoe.

As I said before, I don't try to read between the lines because of how often people who do that get it wrong. YMMV.
 

WTBClownfish

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I'm not crying, I am exploring a topic that is of interest to me. If you don't like it you don't have to post here. I am happy to have you post here, but not if you are going to be a combative ****** canoe.

As I said before, I don't try to read between the lines because of how often people who do that get it wrong. YMMV.
What is the topic of intrest, talking crap about people on reef2reef? Your initial post was not to discuss microbubbles it was to complain about r2r. Sounds like your butt hurts because you think people hate (your description) you on reef2reef. Hate to break it to you, no one cares, you are not that important.


I have been involved in a few discussions of 'nanobubbles'. It is has been interesting because by simply asking for evidence, people seem to hate me. This is almost as interesting as it is distressing. Mostly they keep saying that people are negative without trying it and it it so cheap what is the big deal. When you point out that that is what snake oil salesmen say, you get told you are making personal attacks. It is very strange.

If you feel like seeing what I am talking about check out

http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/micro-and-nano-bubble-tank-treatment.231894/page-13#post-2842332

http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/micro-scrubbing-bubbles.224373/page-26
 

Thales

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What is the topic of intrest, talking crap about people on reef2reef?
No. The topic of interest is a meta topic - how people communicate, make assumptions, and fall prey to fallacious reasoning

Your initial post was not to discuss microbubbles it was to complain about r2r.
No, it was about this, as stated in the initial post "Mostly they keep saying that people are negative without trying it and it it so cheap what is the big deal. When you point out that that is what snake oil salesmen say, you get told you are making personal attacks."

Sounds like your butt hurts because you think people hate (your description) you on reef2reef.
See, that is how that reading between the lines screws you. LOL

Hate to break it to you, no one cares, you are not that important.
You care enough to post here. Several times. LOL
 

Charley

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There was another terrific discussion about nano bubbles on reefthreads podcast #269.

I love reefthreads!


Reef Threads Podcast #269

This week we talk more about carnivorous plants and a lot about nano bubbles.
 

Charley

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Thales......

I think you overestimate how easy people are duped and perhaps confuse this with "enthusiasm" for the hobby. Part of the enjoyment of this hobby for some, I venture to guess, is since there is so little actual evidence on certain topics, people can "play" scientist and try out different things and see what happens, for better or worse. We are humans, we are naturally curious.

I also think that there is difference in having an argument and they WAY you argue. Sometimes, finesse can go a long, long way as opposed to using a baseball bat. Yes, you do makes us feel like you are using a baseball bat sometimes. Understandably with good intentions:) Uh oh ...bracing myself!
 

Thales

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I think it is great the people play scientist - that is something I support. I just want them not to promote fallacious thinking because it leads to bad things. I often have to argue that anyone can do science because people seem to think they 'have to have a lab and fancy equipment'.

Sometimes I do work at what you are calling finesse, but in my experience it takes so much effort and the results end up being exactly the same because at the root of it, some people just get bent unless you agree with them... and it tends to happen more when people are making claims they can't support :D
 
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