In this instance, the issue is not the respect one holds for Eric Borneman. Eric's views are predicated upon the Widdig and Schlichter article. Thus, in order to question Eric's advice, one needs to address the conclusions contained in the Widdig and Schlichter article (which is worthwhile trying to track down) with equally sound science. Until then, from a scientific point of view as opposed to a more anecdotal point of view, it would be wise to do those things consistent with the Widdig and Schlichter conclusions.
Dendronepthya and other nonphotosynthetic organisms
- Thread starter Stottlemire
- Start date
the conclusions contained in the Widdig and Schlichter article are absolute nonsense IMO. Think outside the box for a second. If your cut from your parent the first thing the coral will want to do in the wild is get a hold sted, sort of a footing on the reef again to makesure it doesn't get blown away on the next big current. Why would the coral want to eat when its tied down to styrofoam, floating in a jar??? Doesn't make much sense to me or others that are keeping these corals now. Sorry you didn't come to that conclusion yourself when you read that confusing paper but that conclusion they come up with that its not feeding or phyto isn't a main food source is nonsense.
It would be wise to Not follow the conclusion of Widdig and Schlichters findings as that not real world, they were done in a jar.
Try again
It would be wise to Not follow the conclusion of Widdig and Schlichters findings as that not real world, they were done in a jar.
Try again
Interesting point. However, wouldn't that mean that the dendros would not be feeding at all if they were stressed? Yet, they did feed. Further, the conclusions in the Widdig and Schlichter paper were consistent with other studies. Given your disfavor of advice from Eric Borneman I doubt it will be significant to you whether he, as a scientist, finds the floating theory to hold enough water to call into question the W & S conclusions. Again, what you have to offer is nothing other than a question as to the process used to conduct the study. You have not established truth to your assumption. I am well versed in thinking outside the box, I make my living doing so. Regrettably, I make no pretense of possessing the ability to think like a dendro .
.jnperlm":2ejmoguq said:
You know that page is a bit unclear. The %'s listed are cell weight. There are far more cells on nanno present in count than anything in there, but since they are so small, they don't weight much. The % in PFL/PF is greater then 5% of both cell weight and cell count.
Yes, it is. Eric B. provided a copy for me to read.
What is important about this paper is that W & S tagged the various foods with C14 so they could eventually check inside the colonies for the metabolites of the various foods after ingestion. The fact that they were in fact able to detect the metabolites of the foods, in varying percentages, would seem to militate against the view that W & S's methodology is severely flawed. Remember, the real conclusion of W & S is merely that whole phytoplankton (the most valuable of which was Nannochloropsis) can only constitute 26% of the diet under the best, normal, conditions (Interestingly, when they supersaturated the water column with totally unnatural amounts of Nannochloropsis the percentage of uptake rose above 50%. But that is still just over 50% leaving a big gap.). Another interesting finding, and I am oversimplifying this a bit, is that uptake is greatest in the first hour after introduction of the foods, and then drops off fairly dramatically, even though the foods remain in the water column (See Eric's blurb on this factor: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-08/snn/index.php).
Personally, I have never been enamored with phytoplankton. I have kept my Goniopora going for well over six months now, with new polyps popping-out constantly, without any phytoplankton being added to the tank, just Rotifeast and whatever else is going on in my tank to create food sources. That said, given Chuck's success, clearly things are going on in his tank, and others' tanks, that strongly suggest we are at a tipping-point in keeping dendros. The first question is precisely what is going on in our tanks? The second question I am raising is how much of what is actually going on in our tanks is as a result of phytoplankton and which ones? My suspicion, and it is only a suspicion, is that conditions are being created in these tanks to provide the dendros with enough foods sources, separate from whole phytoplankton, with the exception of Nannochloropsis, to allow growth and health. However, without rigorous testing of the level of W & S we really won't know the answers for sure.
What is important about this paper is that W & S tagged the various foods with C14 so they could eventually check inside the colonies for the metabolites of the various foods after ingestion. The fact that they were in fact able to detect the metabolites of the foods, in varying percentages, would seem to militate against the view that W & S's methodology is severely flawed. Remember, the real conclusion of W & S is merely that whole phytoplankton (the most valuable of which was Nannochloropsis) can only constitute 26% of the diet under the best, normal, conditions (Interestingly, when they supersaturated the water column with totally unnatural amounts of Nannochloropsis the percentage of uptake rose above 50%. But that is still just over 50% leaving a big gap.). Another interesting finding, and I am oversimplifying this a bit, is that uptake is greatest in the first hour after introduction of the foods, and then drops off fairly dramatically, even though the foods remain in the water column (See Eric's blurb on this factor: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-08/snn/index.php).
Personally, I have never been enamored with phytoplankton. I have kept my Goniopora going for well over six months now, with new polyps popping-out constantly, without any phytoplankton being added to the tank, just Rotifeast and whatever else is going on in my tank to create food sources. That said, given Chuck's success, clearly things are going on in his tank, and others' tanks, that strongly suggest we are at a tipping-point in keeping dendros. The first question is precisely what is going on in our tanks? The second question I am raising is how much of what is actually going on in our tanks is as a result of phytoplankton and which ones? My suspicion, and it is only a suspicion, is that conditions are being created in these tanks to provide the dendros with enough foods sources, separate from whole phytoplankton, with the exception of Nannochloropsis, to allow growth and health. However, without rigorous testing of the level of W & S we really won't know the answers for sure.
My beliefs are that Dendros won't feed correctly unless the water movement or flow they get in the wild is matched or close to it. The test in the W n S paper are not a accurate study. Hence I don't tend to how much credit in there results.
I've seen through a mesoscope dendro's feeding on reeds shellfish diet as well as the roti feast so I know first hand that they do eat or ingest both food sources. I mainly feed the shellfish diet though and my corals are doing well.
There's still alot left to figure out with these corals though. Like why do they feed on Reed's shellfish diet and not feed on DT's brand phyto plankton? What is in the Reeds formula that gets them to feed and not reject the food vs the other brand? So that pops the question what type of phyto do they eat in reed's, or do they like the sugary gel base that there in? Lots of questions to look at and figure out. It sure will be nice when this is all played out and people have dendro tanks in the future.
Erik
I've seen through a mesoscope dendro's feeding on reeds shellfish diet as well as the roti feast so I know first hand that they do eat or ingest both food sources. I mainly feed the shellfish diet though and my corals are doing well.
There's still alot left to figure out with these corals though. Like why do they feed on Reed's shellfish diet and not feed on DT's brand phyto plankton? What is in the Reeds formula that gets them to feed and not reject the food vs the other brand? So that pops the question what type of phyto do they eat in reed's, or do they like the sugary gel base that there in? Lots of questions to look at and figure out. It sure will be nice when this is all played out and people have dendro tanks in the future.
Erik
Erik,
The gap between us is narrowing, I think. Let's put aside Rotifeast because we all use it, it seems to work and it fits in with Eric B's and W & S's need for zooplankton. Now, let's put aside your difference with W & S's methodology, other than to note this: Regardless of their methodology, they did establish not only ingestion, but digestion of these foods. This leads me to the critical clause in your post, "I know first hand that they do eat or ingest both food sources." Actually, I think all that you can know with the mesoscope is that there appears to be ingestion. I don't think you can be sure of actual eating. When I discussed phytoplanktons with Eric B., and how my corals seemed to open-up when I introduced it, here's what he wrote back: "Phytoplankton are 'leaky' and your corals are responding to the amino acids being leaked out. Almost all corals, especially stony corals, lack enzymes to break down cell walls and thus cannot utilize phytoplantkon. They may be feeding on the bacteria on the surface and then spitting out the algae later."
This is probably what is going on, in part, with Shellfish Diet, particularly the algaes contained within it that are not Nannochloropsis (if you accept W & S's findings of actual digestion of Nannochloropsis.).
What might be helpful, is if you, or Chuck, were to try the Sera Micron and see what happens under the mesoscope.
Jim
The gap between us is narrowing, I think. Let's put aside Rotifeast because we all use it, it seems to work and it fits in with Eric B's and W & S's need for zooplankton. Now, let's put aside your difference with W & S's methodology, other than to note this: Regardless of their methodology, they did establish not only ingestion, but digestion of these foods. This leads me to the critical clause in your post, "I know first hand that they do eat or ingest both food sources." Actually, I think all that you can know with the mesoscope is that there appears to be ingestion. I don't think you can be sure of actual eating. When I discussed phytoplanktons with Eric B., and how my corals seemed to open-up when I introduced it, here's what he wrote back: "Phytoplankton are 'leaky' and your corals are responding to the amino acids being leaked out. Almost all corals, especially stony corals, lack enzymes to break down cell walls and thus cannot utilize phytoplantkon. They may be feeding on the bacteria on the surface and then spitting out the algae later."
This is probably what is going on, in part, with Shellfish Diet, particularly the algaes contained within it that are not Nannochloropsis (if you accept W & S's findings of actual digestion of Nannochloropsis.).
What might be helpful, is if you, or Chuck, were to try the Sera Micron and see what happens under the mesoscope.
Jim
Hey guys
Heres is what I have. Reed Mariculture was good enough to send me a break down of all the different phytos in Shellfish Diet. I tested each one by adding them to a sterile drip feeder, one at a time testing each one 6 times. The phytos tested were Isochrysis 5-6 microns, Nanno 1-2 microns, Tetraselmis 10-12 microns, Pavlova 4-7 microns, and Thalassiosira 7-20 microns. Each test I used the mesoscope and a video recorder. I observed the polyp tentacles snapping, and rolling in to the mouth, it looks like rain drops on a pond, it increased as more phyto builds up in the water. I will have to see if the lady that does my pictures and video can put some video on the web of the feedings. Now back to what I know, my Dendros are now a year old. The main food fed to my system is Shellfish Diet. The Dendros in my reef tank are usually open about 19-20 hours a day. Now if the info you are getting can relpicate one year and 19-20 hours a day then, maybe it could be considered great info. Im not meaning any of this to affend any one. When I tried backing down my phyto doses, my Dendros did not look as good. When I increased back to what I normally feed, they looked good again. I also feed Rotofeast from Reeds. I see the same affects in the mesoscope.
Chuck
Heres is what I have. Reed Mariculture was good enough to send me a break down of all the different phytos in Shellfish Diet. I tested each one by adding them to a sterile drip feeder, one at a time testing each one 6 times. The phytos tested were Isochrysis 5-6 microns, Nanno 1-2 microns, Tetraselmis 10-12 microns, Pavlova 4-7 microns, and Thalassiosira 7-20 microns. Each test I used the mesoscope and a video recorder. I observed the polyp tentacles snapping, and rolling in to the mouth, it looks like rain drops on a pond, it increased as more phyto builds up in the water. I will have to see if the lady that does my pictures and video can put some video on the web of the feedings. Now back to what I know, my Dendros are now a year old. The main food fed to my system is Shellfish Diet. The Dendros in my reef tank are usually open about 19-20 hours a day. Now if the info you are getting can relpicate one year and 19-20 hours a day then, maybe it could be considered great info. Im not meaning any of this to affend any one. When I tried backing down my phyto doses, my Dendros did not look as good. When I increased back to what I normally feed, they looked good again. I also feed Rotofeast from Reeds. I see the same affects in the mesoscope.
Chuck
kreeger1":1ekjfxw7 said:
Woops, hold on. Sugary gel base? No gel, alginate or anything else like that in SD. The entire reason it is gel like is the density, nothing else. Don't confuse sweet smells with that of being a suger or being actually sweet. Taste it then tell me it's sweet
(I have :lol: )Now if your using Brine Shrimp Directs T-blend then you'd be closer to having suger in there as he used glycerine as "cutting agent", like Liquid Life does as well.
Chuck,
Let me see if I understand your tests correctly. You took 20 ml of each of the five phytos and introduced each 20 ml into a gallon of salt water. Then you separately dripped each of the five one gallon solutions into your tank. Correct? Second, how large is your tank? And finally, as a matter of course, how many ml./day of Shellfish diet do you customarily drip into your tank? Thanks.
Jim
Let me see if I understand your tests correctly. You took 20 ml of each of the five phytos and introduced each 20 ml into a gallon of salt water. Then you separately dripped each of the five one gallon solutions into your tank. Correct? Second, how large is your tank? And finally, as a matter of course, how many ml./day of Shellfish diet do you customarily drip into your tank? Thanks.
Jim
jnperlm,
I tested each phyto over the course of 6 days only one a day. Testing a different phyto each day, and never two phytos the same day. My display tank is 180 gallons, but my system is over 500 gallons. I feed 100mls Shellfish Diet, and 60mls of Roti-Feast from Reeds.
Chuck
I tested each phyto over the course of 6 days only one a day. Testing a different phyto each day, and never two phytos the same day. My display tank is 180 gallons, but my system is over 500 gallons. I feed 100mls Shellfish Diet, and 60mls of Roti-Feast from Reeds.
Chuck
Chuck,
Thanks for the reply. Obviously, what you are doing is working, that is beyond question. For me, with a 65 community tank (fish, inverts, corals, clams, etc., I don't think I can get away with putting that much into my system. What I am doing is 3-4 ml. of Rotifeast, a bit of Phytofest, about 4 ml. of the pure nanno and some of the Sera Micron and Zooplan I have written about previously. I am about a month and a half into this but my Scleronephthya is doing well in the sense that it is expanded about 19-20 hours most days and, I think more importantly, is receiving enough nutrition to allow for new polyps to pop out of the main stalk, grow and open up to apparently feed.
Through the course of our thread, I have developed some additional questions for Eric B., which I hope to get to him over the weekend and I hope to get his answers. If I succeed in getting these answers, I will post them. One thing I am wondering is if one of the reasons for your success is that you are reaching that supersaturation point in the water column that W & S found that, for some reason, vastly increases the uptake of carbon and nitrogen nutrients by these colonies, which is not natural in the sea, but obtainable in a closed system. One of the things that is a striking about the W & S study is that while the uptake of nanno under normal conditions is the greatest of the algae they tested, when they used a supersaturated amount of Chaetoceros muelleri the uptake of that was actually greater than a supersaturated solution of nanno. They did not do the same supersaturation with Tetraselmis, which is in both Phytofeast and Shellfish diet. My point is that if you are at some higher level of saturation of these algae, than natural sea water, and if what occurred with supersaturation of Chaetoceros muelleri holds true with a supersaturation of the algae in Phytofeast and Shellfish diet, then that could explain your success and make your "real world" experience consistent with the findings in the W & S study (Particularly given the fact you are also providing a fair amount of zooplankton via Rotifeast.).
Jim
Thanks for the reply. Obviously, what you are doing is working, that is beyond question. For me, with a 65 community tank (fish, inverts, corals, clams, etc., I don't think I can get away with putting that much into my system. What I am doing is 3-4 ml. of Rotifeast, a bit of Phytofest, about 4 ml. of the pure nanno and some of the Sera Micron and Zooplan I have written about previously. I am about a month and a half into this but my Scleronephthya is doing well in the sense that it is expanded about 19-20 hours most days and, I think more importantly, is receiving enough nutrition to allow for new polyps to pop out of the main stalk, grow and open up to apparently feed.
Through the course of our thread, I have developed some additional questions for Eric B., which I hope to get to him over the weekend and I hope to get his answers. If I succeed in getting these answers, I will post them. One thing I am wondering is if one of the reasons for your success is that you are reaching that supersaturation point in the water column that W & S found that, for some reason, vastly increases the uptake of carbon and nitrogen nutrients by these colonies, which is not natural in the sea, but obtainable in a closed system. One of the things that is a striking about the W & S study is that while the uptake of nanno under normal conditions is the greatest of the algae they tested, when they used a supersaturated amount of Chaetoceros muelleri the uptake of that was actually greater than a supersaturated solution of nanno. They did not do the same supersaturation with Tetraselmis, which is in both Phytofeast and Shellfish diet. My point is that if you are at some higher level of saturation of these algae, than natural sea water, and if what occurred with supersaturation of Chaetoceros muelleri holds true with a supersaturation of the algae in Phytofeast and Shellfish diet, then that could explain your success and make your "real world" experience consistent with the findings in the W & S study (Particularly given the fact you are also providing a fair amount of zooplankton via Rotifeast.).
Jim
I don't think your following the part though that we don't hold any merit to the W & S study though. The results found in the study don't apply to what happens in the wild or in tanks. When you question Eric B this week, ask him how his tanks are doing? or more specific how is his dendro tank doing if he has one. The reason this disregard for Eric B information on my part is I, We feel he's wanting to be the first out with the information on how to keep these animals when in fact I don't believe he is keeping them himself. And further more the blocking of a article by him on these animals brings to me that he really cares less to share info until he can publish it under his name. The goal is to figure them out, not to be the "ONE" that figures them out. IMO
Heres some pretty pictures
All frags from Chucks tank. all are doing well now for 4 plus months
Erik
Heres some pretty pictures
All frags from Chucks tank. all are doing well now for 4 plus months
Erik
Erik,
Trust me, I do understand that you, and others, place no credence in the W & S study. Whether you are in the majority or minority on this is somewhat besides the point. There do exist people who do find their results illuminating. What I am trying to find, perhaps, is a possible answer as to how what you and Chuck are experiencing can be reconciled with the study.
As for Eric, first he certainly has shared information with me, so clearly our experiences on this point is different. Second, I don't know what you are referring to in terms of blocking an article by him. So if you care to fill me in, that would be swell. That said, as Eric is a scientist and I am an attorney, I can understand some of the reasons to protect intellectual property, particularly in this age of the Internet. I can also understand that why, as a scientist, Eric's higher bar for success, and more importantly, understanding why the success, is of great importance.
Additionally, let's remember, we live in the United States, we are, in varying degrees, a capitalistic society, and Eric makes his living as a marine biologist. Sometimes such crass things as earning money takes precedence. Finally, no one is holding a gun to any of our heads requiring that we take on the task of keeping dendros, and the like, alive in our tanks. No one, I am aware of, has been more vocal in warning hobbyists of the perils of trying to keep these colonies than Eric. I am not sure I will pose your questions to Eric. My focus, as I intimated, is trying to gain a greater understanding of the science in all of this.
Jim
P.S. That line about not holding a gun to our heads is, of course, not true for me . Despite my LFS's (Sean Bailey of Aquatic World here in Chicago) request to his wholesaler not to send him any dendros, what appears to be one, was sent to him. He gave it to me so I can give it the best opportunity for survival. I think Sean's ethos about all of this is worth commendation. I will post a picture later.
Trust me, I do understand that you, and others, place no credence in the W & S study. Whether you are in the majority or minority on this is somewhat besides the point. There do exist people who do find their results illuminating. What I am trying to find, perhaps, is a possible answer as to how what you and Chuck are experiencing can be reconciled with the study.
As for Eric, first he certainly has shared information with me, so clearly our experiences on this point is different. Second, I don't know what you are referring to in terms of blocking an article by him. So if you care to fill me in, that would be swell. That said, as Eric is a scientist and I am an attorney, I can understand some of the reasons to protect intellectual property, particularly in this age of the Internet. I can also understand that why, as a scientist, Eric's higher bar for success, and more importantly, understanding why the success, is of great importance.
Additionally, let's remember, we live in the United States, we are, in varying degrees, a capitalistic society, and Eric makes his living as a marine biologist. Sometimes such crass things as earning money takes precedence. Finally, no one is holding a gun to any of our heads requiring that we take on the task of keeping dendros, and the like, alive in our tanks. No one, I am aware of, has been more vocal in warning hobbyists of the perils of trying to keep these colonies than Eric. I am not sure I will pose your questions to Eric. My focus, as I intimated, is trying to gain a greater understanding of the science in all of this.
Jim
P.S. That line about not holding a gun to our heads is, of course, not true for me
. Despite my LFS's (Sean Bailey of Aquatic World here in Chicago) request to his wholesaler not to send him any dendros, what appears to be one, was sent to him. He gave it to me so I can give it the best opportunity for survival. I think Sean's ethos about all of this is worth commendation. I will post a picture later.15-20 years ago stores asked not to send SPS corals to them also. I remember getting my first acro in 93. Back when "PRO'S" also said they couldn't be kept alive in home aquariums.
Hobbiest are on the edge of figuring out another coral that can't be kept in captivity. Some have already passed the year point and continue to have success. Hopefully will get to see Eric B recant his statement about keeping these corals.
we will see
erik
Hobbiest are on the edge of figuring out another coral that can't be kept in captivity. Some have already passed the year point and continue to have success. Hopefully will get to see Eric B recant his statement about keeping these corals.
we will see
erik
This is the new dendro I referred to yesterday. Not the best picture, but perhaps you can get a sense of the size, general color, but not the detail of the polyps or the subtle coloration in polyps.
P.S. Subsequent to posting this, Chuck S. concluded that this most likely not a Dendro. As I explained to Chuck, in my subsequent post, it came into my LFS as a Dendro from the wholesaler. This was the basis for my posting it as a Dendro. We all make mistakes, Right Chuck ? We are all trying to help each other out in a collegial way, right Chuck ?
P.S. Subsequent to posting this, Chuck S. concluded that this most likely not a Dendro. As I explained to Chuck, in my subsequent post, it came into my LFS as a Dendro from the wholesaler. This was the basis for my posting it as a Dendro. We all make mistakes, Right Chuck
? We are all trying to help each other out in a collegial way, right Chuck ?Attachments
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