Dendronepthya and other nonphotosynthetic organisms
- Thread starter Stottlemire
- Start date
All,
I've been taking pictures and videos of Chuck's non-photosynthetic/dendro system for about 6 months now. Here is the link to what he's got going. It is truly beautiful, and, to date, thriving (going on 10 months now), though, that is still to early to say it will be sustainable long-term (he keeps reminding of us that!). He also has had basket stars for many years, crinoids, sea pens and other hard-to-keep species, so, there are a lot of interesting things in there. Would love to hear of others doing the same!
There are 3 pages of pics on this link, and 2 very short video clips, I'll try to post other very short clips soon.
Enjoy..
http://www.quillworker.com/dendrotank.htm
I've been taking pictures and videos of Chuck's non-photosynthetic/dendro system for about 6 months now. Here is the link to what he's got going. It is truly beautiful, and, to date, thriving (going on 10 months now), though, that is still to early to say it will be sustainable long-term (he keeps reminding of us that!). He also has had basket stars for many years, crinoids, sea pens and other hard-to-keep species, so, there are a lot of interesting things in there. Would love to hear of others doing the same!
There are 3 pages of pics on this link, and 2 very short video clips, I'll try to post other very short clips soon.
Enjoy..
http://www.quillworker.com/dendrotank.htm
Welcome Chuck, Charles and Amy. Glad you all could make it over and I'm even more glad you started this thread 
LEt's get some pics rolling in it so people can see what your doing
My system is a few months away from being put together. I'm making a non photosynthtic system for our facility so we can see what unlimitted food source can do for them
LEt's get some pics rolling in it so people can see what your doing My system is a few months away from being put together. I'm making a non photosynthtic system for our facility so we can see what unlimitted food source can do for them
I've kept non-photosynthetic Atlantic Tube anemones for several years with good success. I've tryed various other non-photosynthetic corals (mostly gorgonians) with little success. I am still interested in learning more about these creatures and working on a way to keep them successfully.
I've been thinking of building a system connected to my main reef tank, but with an electronic solenoid that cuts the flow off from the rest of the system at night. I would also have some type of powerhead increasing the flow across the substrate during this time to stir up particulate matter. Other thoughts were to have a drip of some type of plankton during this time.
I do a lot of diving and have noticed that there are a lot of cool non-photosynthetic corlas on our coast that live in intertidal areas and are dependant on the murky waters that bring the nutrients as the tide goes out. By mimicking these conditions during the times when I am least likely to want to view my tank, I should be able to get away with mimicking the clear incoming tide conditions during the times that I want to view my tank. I first started thinking about this after watching the tv special on the Monterray Bay aquarium and how they open their tanks up to raw seawater at night.
I've been thinking of building a system connected to my main reef tank, but with an electronic solenoid that cuts the flow off from the rest of the system at night. I would also have some type of powerhead increasing the flow across the substrate during this time to stir up particulate matter. Other thoughts were to have a drip of some type of plankton during this time.
I do a lot of diving and have noticed that there are a lot of cool non-photosynthetic corlas on our coast that live in intertidal areas and are dependant on the murky waters that bring the nutrients as the tide goes out. By mimicking these conditions during the times when I am least likely to want to view my tank, I should be able to get away with mimicking the clear incoming tide conditions during the times that I want to view my tank. I first started thinking about this after watching the tv special on the Monterray Bay aquarium and how they open their tanks up to raw seawater at night.
Hi everyone,
I have been having some pretty good results using the Reed Mariculture Shellfish Diet and Roto Feast. I have video I took through a Mesoscope and video camera of Dendros feeding. My tank is doing good Mogandy has the link to the pictures on her post.
I have been having some pretty good results using the Reed Mariculture Shellfish Diet and Roto Feast. I have video I took through a Mesoscope and video camera of Dendros feeding. My tank is doing good Mogandy has the link to the pictures on her post.
I've had good success thus far with a species of Menella gorgonian that is aposymbiotic. The branches have clear growth tips and a new branch has grown out that's probably about 1/2" long. I've had it for about 6 months now. I'm feeding it blended Algamac (a HUFA supplement), Reed Mariculture Shellfish Diet, Cyclop-eeze (I was surprised to see it catch these), enriched baby Artemia, and Panagrellus sp. "microworms".
Frag pic taken around a month and a half ago
Base is kinda skinny due to size of frag
New pic taken today 10/07/07
You can see the base getting thicker and more polyps have grown. Not positive the thick base is a good thing forsure, but it does look to be growing to me and others that have scene it a few times.
ANd it has alot better color now to, again it feels like a good sign but not to much is known yet about these corals
Erik
Base is kinda skinny due to size of frag
New pic taken today 10/07/07
You can see the base getting thicker and more polyps have grown. Not positive the thick base is a good thing forsure, but it does look to be growing to me and others that have scene it a few times.
ANd it has alot better color now to, again it feels like a good sign but not to much is known yet about these corals
Erik
Matt_":2t6irbf5 said:I've had good success thus far with a species of Menella gorgonian that is aposymbiotic. The branches have clear growth tips and a new branch has grown out that's probably about 1/2" long. I've had it for about 6 months now. I'm feeding it blended Algamac (a HUFA supplement), Reed Mariculture Shellfish Diet, Cyclop-eeze (I was surprised to see it catch these), enriched baby Artemia, and Panagrellus sp. "microworms".
I'm glad I got the base of this gorgonian in this shot. The below image was taken just a couple weeks ago. You can see the new branch coming out at the bottom. My only worry now is the calcareous algae creeping up the base. 8O
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A very close relative to dendros is the genus Scleronephthya. I purchased one of these on November 23, 2007 (See picture). It remains open and feeding most of the day and night. Each day it closes for a few hours later in the day and then reopens. For purpose of my corals I feed the tank, which is a community reef tank with coral, live rock, inverts and fish, Rotifeast and Phytofeast. Due to the requirements of this species of coral, I break the Phytofeast feedings in half; once in the morning and once before bed, thereby insuring a more constant supply of available food. The coral is doing quite well and developing new polyps.
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Thanks. In a brief e-mail exchange with Eric Borneman he provided me with this advice: "Lots and lots of very small foods, including phytoplankton and try anything and everything that is almost microscopically fine or small." Yesterday, I started to use a new food that has not been mentioned in this thread, Phytogreen-S by Brightwell Aquatics: http://www.brightwellaquatics.com/ . While these products do not have the advantage of Reed Mariculture's Phytofeast of being live, the one advantage of Brightwell is I can get a solution of only Nannochloropsis, the smallest phytoplankton possible (They also have other products containing larger phytoplankton mixtures.). This seems to fit Eric's advice perfectly. I am not suggesting using Phytogreen-S in place of Phytofeast, but what I think is worth experimenting with is using it in addition to Phytofeast, and perhaps cutting back on the Phytofeast a bit. I will say, last night when I introduced the Phytogreen-S those polyps of my Scleronephthya that were not opened opened-up and, interestingly, so did the polyps of my acros. I see this as a positive sign and take it as a reason to continue to experiment with Phytogreen-S.
Hows it going everybody, one note on the phytogreen-s, if your coral is opening when you put the food in dont be confused by thinking it automaticaly means the coral is feeding. I have been using a mesoscope, and observing the Dendros feeding. I have used many different types of foods, and just because the Dendro opened it did not mean it fed. I have video taped dendro polyps feeding response. The one food you mentioned the Phytofeast, works well for me. The dendros in my system are a week short of a year in my system. Phytofeast or Shellfish diet, and Rotofeast have been the main food fed to my system.
Chuck
,
Chuck
,
I'm not trying to speak for Chuck, but locally a number of us have been doing a lot of observations/study of all aspects of his system, plumbing, flow, pumps, where placed, seeing what other corals are sensitive to the dendros and vice versa, what eats dendros (nasty little fishies!) photographing, filming, etc.. throughout the year These are some of the points that Charles M. summarized previously in some correspondence Chuck and I have had with him, about what Chuck does. THere is more, so Chuck, just lay it out. Others who haven't kept them alive might be only speculating still.
1) Drip phytoplankton Reeds' Shellfish Diet continuously.
2) Vodka method for nutrient control and possibly bacterial bloom as food. Some turbidity occurs on a regular basis. Never stop the feed drip!
3) Temp max at 76, no deviations greater than 1 degree to 77 during the seven months this tank has been up.
4) Linear flow.
5) Frag to 1 inch branchlets on arrival.
Pics of his tank if you haven't seen are at http://www.twighlightreef.com/dendrotank.htm
and more will be coming next week hopefully!
1) Drip phytoplankton Reeds' Shellfish Diet continuously.
2) Vodka method for nutrient control and possibly bacterial bloom as food. Some turbidity occurs on a regular basis. Never stop the feed drip!
3) Temp max at 76, no deviations greater than 1 degree to 77 during the seven months this tank has been up.
4) Linear flow.
5) Frag to 1 inch branchlets on arrival.
Pics of his tank if you haven't seen are at http://www.twighlightreef.com/dendrotank.htm
and more will be coming next week hopefully!
Chuck,
As I am sure you know, the sole phytoplankton in Phytogreen-S is Nannochloropsis, which is only 1-2 microns large. This is also the bottom size phytoplankton in both Phytofeast and Shellfish Diet (Phytofeast contains six microalgaes and Shellfish Diet contains four microalgaes, and these four overlap with the six in Phytofeast including Nannochloropsis). I think Randy's products are great. In fact, it was Randy's recommendation to track you down that lead me to join this thread. I think that an experiment you might wish to try is to get samples of the Brigthwell products, which only contain one or two different phytoplanktons, and see precisely under your mesoscope which of the different types of phytoplanktons the animals respond to best. As I said, I do put a lot or credence in what Eric B. has to advise and Phytogreen-S certainly fits the bill as something to be used with Randy's products. Being a lawyer, I issue the following disclaimer: I am a mere hobbyist and in no way associated with Brightwell Aquatics :wink: .
Jim
P.S. Following the initial posting of this entry, I did some further research on the components of Phytofeast and Shell FishDiet. I was not able to track down the percentage of Nannochloropsis in Phytofeast but, according to Reed's web site, the percentage of Nannochloropsis in Shellfish Diet is 5%. This leads me to wonder, at least for Dendros, etc., whether, based on Eric B's suggestion of the small the better, a higher concentration of Nannochloropsis in the water column might not be advisable particularly in a tank such as mine where I do not have the option of keeping the water as turbid as you can in a dedicated tank.
As I am sure you know, the sole phytoplankton in Phytogreen-S is Nannochloropsis, which is only 1-2 microns large. This is also the bottom size phytoplankton in both Phytofeast and Shellfish Diet (Phytofeast contains six microalgaes and Shellfish Diet contains four microalgaes, and these four overlap with the six in Phytofeast including Nannochloropsis). I think Randy's products are great. In fact, it was Randy's recommendation to track you down that lead me to join this thread. I think that an experiment you might wish to try is to get samples of the Brigthwell products, which only contain one or two different phytoplanktons, and see precisely under your mesoscope which of the different types of phytoplanktons the animals respond to best. As I said, I do put a lot or credence in what Eric B. has to advise and Phytogreen-S certainly fits the bill as something to be used with Randy's products. Being a lawyer, I issue the following disclaimer: I am a mere hobbyist and in no way associated with Brightwell Aquatics :wink: .
Jim
P.S. Following the initial posting of this entry, I did some further research on the components of Phytofeast and Shell FishDiet. I was not able to track down the percentage of Nannochloropsis in Phytofeast but, according to Reed's web site, the percentage of Nannochloropsis in Shellfish Diet is 5%. This leads me to wonder, at least for Dendros, etc., whether, based on Eric B's suggestion of the small the better, a higher concentration of Nannochloropsis in the water column might not be advisable particularly in a tank such as mine where I do not have the option of keeping the water as turbid as you can in a dedicated tank.
The source of Eric B's beliefs can be found in this paper: Phytoplankton: a significant trophic source for soft corals? by Alexander Widdig · Dietrich Schlichter, published in 2001. Based upon their research, using labeled microalgaes and checking for the metabolites of these algaes they reached this conclusion:
"The ingestion and assimilation rates calculated for larger algae species (Chaetoceros muelleri, Tetraselmis sp., Dinoflagellates) on the basis of results obtained under standard conditions and of those simulating in situ conditions were found to be similar. However, for the minute Nannochloropsis sp., the incorporation rates under simulated in situ conditions were about 3.5 times higher than in the standard feeding experiments.
The low trophic contribution through herbivory, suggests that there are further heterotrophic resources used by the azooxanthellate Dendronephthya sp. Besides DOM [dead organic matter], all categories of zooplankton and dead organic materials such as phytodetritus and zoodetritus might be used to meet the energetic demands."
This, then, is the predicate for Eric's belief in the greater value of Nannochloropsis sp.
If we accept these findings, then our focus, among other things, should be on zooplankton. I think this is why we are all using Rotifeast and having varying degrees of success with Dendros and the like. Eric had one suggestion for me, a product called Sera Micron, which is an extraordinarily fine mixture of a variety of foods, including zooplankton. I have been using this for a week or so by target feeding. Additionally, Two Little Fishies possesses a product called Zoplan that I just obtained yesterday that seems to fit the bill.
I have two points in all of this. First, based on the article by Widdig and Schlichter there exists a legitimate question concerning the value of a wide spectrum phytoplankton product as opposed to using a more narrow phytoplankton product. Certainly, there is a negative impact on our tanks with too much of invaluable foods in the water column. Second, again based on the article by Widdig and Schlichter, there is every reason to believe more focus should be put on zooplanktons, like Rotifeast, Zoplan and perhaps Sera Micron, which should also, indirectly, increase the availability of zoodetritus.
"The ingestion and assimilation rates calculated for larger algae species (Chaetoceros muelleri, Tetraselmis sp., Dinoflagellates) on the basis of results obtained under standard conditions and of those simulating in situ conditions were found to be similar. However, for the minute Nannochloropsis sp., the incorporation rates under simulated in situ conditions were about 3.5 times higher than in the standard feeding experiments.
The low trophic contribution through herbivory, suggests that there are further heterotrophic resources used by the azooxanthellate Dendronephthya sp. Besides DOM [dead organic matter], all categories of zooplankton and dead organic materials such as phytodetritus and zoodetritus might be used to meet the energetic demands."
This, then, is the predicate for Eric's belief in the greater value of Nannochloropsis sp.
If we accept these findings, then our focus, among other things, should be on zooplankton. I think this is why we are all using Rotifeast and having varying degrees of success with Dendros and the like. Eric had one suggestion for me, a product called Sera Micron, which is an extraordinarily fine mixture of a variety of foods, including zooplankton. I have been using this for a week or so by target feeding. Additionally, Two Little Fishies possesses a product called Zoplan that I just obtained yesterday that seems to fit the bill.
I have two points in all of this. First, based on the article by Widdig and Schlichter there exists a legitimate question concerning the value of a wide spectrum phytoplankton product as opposed to using a more narrow phytoplankton product. Certainly, there is a negative impact on our tanks with too much of invaluable foods in the water column. Second, again based on the article by Widdig and Schlichter, there is every reason to believe more focus should be put on zooplanktons, like Rotifeast, Zoplan and perhaps Sera Micron, which should also, indirectly, increase the availability of zoodetritus.
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