Who is Responsible?!?

[NYreefNoob]

Who Is Responsible

first sorry to hear of the loss, now i know why i dont spend more than 35 for a fish. id be pissed. but in all fairness i have dealt with 2 of the vendors from here. one i got a pair of perc clowns, one died next day and was offered a replacement. didnt take it because it was probably partially my fault. i didnt take the time to acclimate it proper. if you go to buy a porshe do you think they are going to say hey, can you handle this car ? or the insurance ? or the maintnance ? i believe it is the buyers responsibility to know what they are buying. not saying the death is slama's fault. but also remember he is buying them from somewhere. he didnt raise this fish. and not for nothing but it's each persons choice who and where they buy from. i myself have been happy with my purchase's. till ronin or jim fk me over.

 

[nanoreefer22]

Chris Tooo funny, I've thought about that countless times. Just thought I was the only one, so I kept my little mouth shut .

 

[twinreef]

Thats why I started to buy 95% of my fish from https://www.liveaquaria.com/
because after $120 and 2 days later have a dead fish.
A real vendor is who offers this
Our Guarantees:

If your fish, coral, plant, or invertebrate doesn't arrive alive and stay alive for 14 days, we'll credit your account or refund your money.​

 

[nanchil]

Sorry to hear the loss. I feel your pain Mike.
My Experience:
I am very new to this community and I have worked with 3 vendors from this forum and to my experience, I am happy with there service and quality of products. At the same time (two years back) I had a very bad experience with saltwaterfish.com. So I think it all depends on the circumstance. I have ordered from Nyaquatic and when it arrived, unfortunately three fishes were dead. I just mailed Mike (Nyaquatic) that 3 fishes were dead and to my surprise, he credited me back the $$$ in less than 5 mins. He didn’t ask me any questions and in fact I didn’t ask for refund. So at that point I was surprised by the service MR vendors provide. I am not trying to support any one here, just my experience.

 

[SlamaJama]

Sorry to hear the loss. I feel your pain Mike.
My Experience:
I am very new to this community and I have worked with 3 vendors from this forum and to my experience, I am happy with there service and quality of products. At the same time (two years back) I had a very bad experience with saltwaterfish.com. So I think it all depends on the circumstance. I have ordered from Nyaquatic and when it arrived, unfortunately three fishes were dead. I just mailed Mike (Nyaquatic) that 3 fishes were dead and to my surprise, he credited me back the $$$ in less than 5 mins. He didn?t ask me any questions and in fact I didn?t ask for refund. So at that point I was surprised by the service MR vendors provide. I am not trying to support any one here, just my experience.

sujin, i respect ur post...it shows its not all bad.

 

[charile1]

The problem here is, our vendors are turning into the LFS guys "who rip us off".

I agree. How come when vendors buy stuff from other members and then resell them for a profit its ok? But, when a certain member bought a skimmer and resold it on craigslist is was frown upon?

 

[ShaunW]

I agree. How come when vendors buy stuff from other members and then resell them for a profit its ok? But, when a certain member bought a skimmer and resold it on craigslist is was frown upon?

Neither is good and both are frowned upon, but it is not the responsibility of the website "Manhattanreefs" to police these events.

 

[digitalreefer]

Mike, I understand that you are upset, and won't get into that situation, as that is for the two of you to work out.

I don't feel that it is fair to blanket all of the vendors due to a bad experience with one. I have been given good information by some of the vendors here, and even dissuaded from buying things that they felt were not right for my tank. I do believe that there are some ethical vendors here and it is unfair to them to group them in with a bad experience.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

There are a few stores that do offer guarantees on fish and a couple who will honor a loss even though their policy is not to. AQA does have a 48hr guarantee and so does Mutts and Butts provided the corpse is accompanied by a separate water sample.

It is unfortunate when a fish dies for whatever reason, and yes it doesn't hurt a vendor to have a small guarantee on their livestock, for the most part atleast. But from a vendor standpoint, we are a business and we have to protect ourselves along with our customers. There are many people who can't keep anything alive for even 48hrs and constantly returned fish or scams can cripple a small home supplier. Most fish should have a guarantee for atleast 48hrs (every store I know of with this policy gives store credit for an equal amount). I am not going to begin to support M. Stern since I have never met or done business with him, I am merely speaking as a vendor in general. You have to see these problems from both sides before you go off on someone over what you see as unfair. This business is based on live animals that are incredibly delicate for the most part and as a vendor we can't keep buying fish for people because they died. I'm not slamming Slama either, I know he knows what he is doing and treated the fish properly. All I am saying is this is a livestock business and well, $h1t does happen. If you knew what goes on between the retailers and the wholesalers sometimes you wouldn't feel so bad lol. I've seen entire shipments in frozen slushy water (or fried on the tarmac in Tonga)because they were held up or bumped from a flight and there is no recourse but to go after the airline through insurance because the suppliers "had no control".

Now, that being said, a blanket policy of 48hrs is in no way unfair for either party provided a water sample is supplied. 1) it makes customers feel safer buying since they have some protection and 2) it's just plain good business sense. Again, I am not defending anyone's action or targetting anyone in anyway. I am just offering up the other side of this problem as a business.

 

[SlamaJama]

E, all good points, but i think we as buyers are looking for a higher standard...my issue was an after thought

lfs, i like ur suggestion of a 48hr policy etc. , a policy from any would be a nice start.

 

[TimberTDI]

I cannot begin to tell everyone here the extent that I do not want to even dignify this thread with a response

If you really feel that way, why give one?



That being said: It is not the vendors responsibility to offer you a warranty. Personally, I was making such a large purchase on one fish I would definitely purchase it from somewhere with a guarantee. I don't know one LFS that offers a guarantee on marine livestock.

If I offended anyone; too bad,

Steven

 

[lfsmarineguy]

in all fairness it is a lot harder to run a small business in this field out of your home and give huge guarantees on the fish when you don't have the kind of backing a larger store does. But, some cases do require extra consideration and that is at the discretion of the vendor. A small guarantee atleast for MR members wouldn't hurt since this is a big customer pool.

 

[heuerfan]

Sorry for your loss Mike. I know you said its not about the fish but to be honest with you a Flame wrasse is one of the hardest fairy wrasses to keep alive let alone getting a healthy one. Even if you were to see one eat that does not mean it won't die in a couple of days or weeks or months. The first male that i got died after a couple days and the one i have currrently hid for 8 days, but doesn't mean it won't drop dead on me any day now. Its just a tough fish, just something to consider.....

Hope you both work it out because you both are good guys and assets to the MR community.

My 2 cents....

 

[Nsr250NYC]

since everyone's laying out in the open, here is one for ya:

how come i see some venders buying up Live rocks when they sell live rocks to begin with?? coudn't they get their own rocks? or was it the $ they charge others too much for them?

just a thought:smokin:

 

[jackson6745]

My view FWIW.....

Slama pays $120 for a fish from Michael Stern
Fish dies 2 days later
Michael offers to replace fish at cost $70

End result would be Slama pays $190 for his wrasse and Michael Stern still makes his $50.

Michael is by no means obligated to replace Slama's fish for cost or for free for that matter since there was no live arrival guaranteed. Since the fish died in 2 days it was obviously sick, or extremely stressed since all Mikes other fish are fine. His water is not poision
What is the right thing to do? We'll if I was the vendor in this I would be more worried about keeping my customer happy, and keeping a good rep, rather than making a profit (in this case). I would not make a dime on this sale and would give the fish to Slama for $20.

Result
Slama still pays $140 for 1 live fish, Michael Stern loses nothing, everyone is happy, and this thread doesn't exist. Another fair proposal, although not as satisfying for the customer, would have been the vendor offers to split his profit. The end result of this would be Michael Stern profits $25, slama pays $165 for his fish, and this thread may still not exist

Usually I don't respond on threads like this but I think it is important for the local vendors to give us exceptional customer service and great prices. I don't want to order my reef stuff (dry goods + livestock) online. I enjoy seeing products in person and chatting with an experienced hobbiest. That extra level of fairness, value, and overall customer satisfaction is what keeps us from ordering from big online vendors.

 

[spykes]

richie your a wise man

 

[michael stern]

FWIW, not that it is anyone's business but just keeping the facts strait, the offer I made Slama, and that he rejected, was to replace his fish at my cost, MINUS whatever profit I made off the first. I would have ended up with $0 profit.

Rich, I'm not sure why you are throwing around numbers that are factually inaccurate, nor do I agree with your assertion that the wrasse was "obviously" sick. Slama has been strangely vague about what happened to the wrasse. All I know for a fact is that 7/8 flame wrasses that arrived together are alive and well.

 

[heuerfan]

If you really feel that way, why give one?
I don't know one LFS that offers a guarantee on marine livestock.

Sorry just noticed this, actually House Of Fins in Greenwich, CT offers 7 day guarantee. Maybe thats why they charge so much.......

 

[michael stern]

Rich,

I offered to make $0 profit on both fish. I offered the second at $25 (my profit on the first) less than my cost.

What did he do to it? I don't know. I wasn't there. Maybe he rushed the acclimation. Maybe one of his other wrasses attacked it. Hell, he hasn't said anything. Maybe the F^*&^er jumped! Maybe he pissed in the water. I don't know. That's why I don't offer extended guarantees. How many of my customer would like me to bump up my prices 50% to offer a guarantee. The idiots who can't keep their fish alive would love it. Everyone else would buy elsewhere.

 

[jackson6745]

Well, your offer to make $0 on the whole deal confuses everything I'll be leaving this thread now. have a nice day all