Who is Responsible?!?

[michael stern]

Do you really want your vendors to match liveaquaria

I just randomly picked a bunch of fish from liveaquaria.com and put together the following order:

1 eibli angel
3 dispar anthias
1 large powder blue tang
5 green chromis

Total charge $244.90 with a 14 day guarantee

From me, the same order would be $127.50, with a live arrival only guarantee.

Yes, you get a much better guarantee from Liveaquaria, but you PAY FOR IT!

It is unfair and unreasonable to say I want live aquaria's guarantee with nyaquatic pricing. AS I TELL ANYONE THAT ASKS, I, UNLIKE LIVEAQUARIA, DO NOT BUILD THAT INTO MY PRICING.

Now, I'm sure if you look around liveaquaria.com, you can find 1 or 2 items that their pricing is not dramatically less. I guarantee, that if you look at the big picture, the fish I picked are more representative.

Until my customers are willing to pay dramatically more for their fish, I'll stick with my quality/price/guarantee combination.

 

[loismustdie]

Michael, Post number 52, you posted PM in the open forum. Very unprofessional. You could have edited and done whatever you want to make someone look bad. I don't mean to accuse or say you altered anything, but PM is private and this looks very bad on you. That post should be deleted.

 

[michael stern]

Michael, Post number 52, you posted PM in the open forum. Very unprofessional. You could have edited and done whatever you want to make someone look bad. I don't mean to accuse or say you altered anything, but PM is private and this looks very bad on you. That post should be deleted.

I appreciate your opinion here, but Slama brought this public first, while we were discussing it in private, without even giving me the courtesy of trying to finish resolving it. He also revealed confidential pricing information that I gave him while trying to HELP him. The innapropriate ship has long sailed. But at least I'm glad to see how fair and unbiased a discussion this is.

 

[SlamaJama]

mike are the fishies you bought from me still alive ?

and to make a long story short imma do business with liveaquaria.com only for fish.. actually placing a 200.00 order with them in a couple of days. just so much easier and no headaches involved.... 14 day guarantee and no fuss about it :biggrin:

http://liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=23&ref=3319&subref=AL
What a policy.... and they dont charge a fortune for there fish either..

To Tonyscootsreef.com: lol, yes tony they are and doing well...lol

 

[gnatp2]

Obviously this "discussion" has turned into "bashing" by both parties and cannot be helpful at this point. Probably should be closed.

I honestly think both sides had some very good points in their arguements, but haven't handled the situation appropriately.

Nate

 

[jhale]

Edit. I'm going to leave it open. Please no personal attacks. Lets discuss the issue and come to a resolution if possible

this thread is walking a thin line, it is serving to generate a discusion between members and vendors now, do not let it degenerate into personal attacks.

 

[loismustdie]

I appreciate your opinion here, but Slama brought this public first, while we were discussing it in private, without even giving me the courtesy of trying to finish resolving it. He also revealed confidential pricing information that I gave him while trying to HELP him. The innapropriate ship has long sailed. But at least I'm glad to see how fair and unbiased a discussion this is.

I agree Michael. I also feel posted prices are speculation and those too should not have been posted openly, weather they are accurate or not. There is no proof of the numbers posted.
I spoke to Mike off line. I do not mean to sound biased in all this. I told him that I feel the blame on this incident are 50/50.
First and foremost, both of you should have known better when talking about this fish.
I do feel that by offering LS as cheap as you do, you are being helpful to members, but you do make easy money off of this site yet you provide little to no help when it comes to advice. You're here for the money. So helping out one of the members would be a nice thing to do for a community that pays you.
Mike may have also jumped the gun on this thread and didn't give enough time for you guys to work out a fair solution.
Business always gets in the way of friendships. When someone says "it's not the money, it's the principle"... it's the money.
I don't know who should call who, but you guys should work this out under cooler heads. It's easy to be misunderstood in the threads. This thread should be deleted and we can open up a different vendor bashing thread, because a lot of valid points have been brought up about them.

 

[SlamaJama]

lets not get soft...it wasent meant to be handled here anyway this may be rough on vendors but tough issues need to be represented as well...

 

[ellebelle]

These people are running a business, and I think it's unfair to expect them to have prices that are the same as people just fragging coral from their own tanks, or selling off their fish to make way for new ones. The vendors here are in it to make a profit just like any other business - and why should they not be? I've had nothing but good experiences with the MR vendors. Sure, their prices aren't always lower than other places online or at my LFS (actually, my LFS is New World, so their prices are usually lower), but the reason I prefer to buy from MR vendors is for the added confidence in my product. I have greater confidence that I am going to buy a fish/coral that is going to live and be healthy from an MR vendor than from someplace else.

 

[Awibrandy]

More sound advice from Rich.



For the future benefit of all, perhaps the vendors that do business here on MR might take this opportunity to publish their policies on livestock... both shipped or picked up.

I second Kathy.
Sorry guys, I wear my feelings on my sleeve. I was trying to stay out of this one because both Michaels have a place in my heart. And I consider both to be my friends.
These two gentlemen, (and I mean gentle men) were the first to come forth and help me out when I needed it the most.
Perhaps if a little time is taken to cool off, maybe time will heal the wounds inflicted, and this can be resolved.
I make purchases hear more to help then to save money. I consider everyone on this board to be a member of my family. And like most families I expect these disagreements to occur time to time. But like with families I would hope that in time we would make amends, and move forward.

 

[charile1]

What would you like him to do if the "free" replacement died as well?

Maybe you guys can buy life insurance on your expensive fish.

 

[Domboski]

I am sorry for your loss Slama and a lot of the points people are making (including you) about the vendors is fair. Our money is important and this hobby certainly sucks up a lot of it.

I have a lot of experience with Michael Stern and in the beggining survival rate was bad. Michael and I worked things out where instead of me assuming he was selling bad fish, we were able to discover that for whatever reason fish that are acclimated to his sytem do not do well in mine. Through years of experience (not reef), I have come to know that our personal systems vary from one another and sometimes animals that may thrive in one system may not in another.

Michael has not charged me for ailing fish and the most incredible show of customer service on Michael Sterns part is he offered to keep my fish seperate from his sytem until I pick them up (in some cases that means he needs to take special care of my fish for a full day until I get to his house for pickup). Since we have come to this arrangment, I have had nearly a 95% survival rate. Considering the livestock I purchase from Michael (very sensitive and unique specimens such as rays, all sorts of pipefish, etc) that number is astounding!

Pricing? I can't believe there is any question on prices. Michael has always offered good deals and I feel we can't hold vendors responsible for pricing. It is our responsibility to do the research and if there is a better deal, go with it. If people think it is better to order fish from Drs. Foster and Smith because when they die they refund you is crazy. I have had fish arrive dead from F&S and they refunded the money so fast my head spinned. You know what though? I didn't feel better about the situation because the fish died. That took precedence over the money. I will never order live fish from them again (other than feeder stuff) because I can't imagine how many animals perish in shipping all over the country from them. That to me is irresponsible and also being done to "make a buck" rather than help fund thier own systems. If everyone feels better because they get thier money back, you may want to re-think about what is really important and what our hobby is about.

The comment about selling fish that can not survive in our tanks (forgot who made it) was also unfair. I do agree however that it should be made transparent what people are buying as Deanos mentioned, many times people are inexperienced who are buying these animals. The reason I disagree of the sale of these "tough to keep" animals (being restricted of course) is because we are in this hobby to learn and nothing is impossible. I for one have several species of animals considered "impossible" to either house together or keep in a aquarium period. Through experience and tons of research, I have great success with all animals I have ever kept which includes sharks, rays, rare species of pipefish, seahorses, wild caught animals, corals, boxfish, etc, etc.

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with holding our vendors to the highest standards but we need to be fair by considering thier situation as well. Of course vendors need to be more responsible with the purchasing of animals because it is ALL of our responsiblity to provide the best care we can for them. We are all in this hobby because we love and respect the beauty of nature and we all wish we could make some of the money back by selling frags, livestock, etc. All of the vendors I have dealt with on MR are not only selling these animals to make a buck. They have all shown a love and respect for these animals and have beautiful tanks of their own.

Again, I am sorry for your loss and I hope you and Michael can work something out. I understand you need to blow off steam but hopefully cooler heads will prevail and things will work out for everyone (too late for the dead fish of course).

 

[Domboski]

I would like to add one more thing, if the money we spend is a little more than we are comfortable with or can afford, then most likely we can not provide the proper care for the animal to begin with. It is like gambling, you don't go to the casino and gamble your mortgage / rent money.

For the record, I am not talking about Slama, I am making a general comment as this relates to the topics being discussed in this thread.

 

[junglebase]

I consider everyone on this board to be a member of my family. And like most families I expect these disagreements to occur time to time. But like with families I would hope that in time we would make amends, and move forward.[/quote]

That is so well said.. just like you, i have dealt with the two Mikes and i have their respect...

 

[marrone]

I


The comment about selling fish that can not survive in our tanks (forgot who made it) was also unfair. I do agree however that it should be made transparent what people are buying as Deanos mentioned, many times people are inexperienced who are buying these animals. The reason I disagree of the sale of these "tough to keep" animals (being restricted of course) is because we are in this hobby to learn and nothing is impossible. I for one have several species of animals considered "impossible" to either house together or keep in a aquarium period. Through experience and tons of research, I have great success with all animals I have ever kept which includes sharks, rays, rare species of pipefish, seahorses, wild caught animals, corals, boxfish, etc, etc.

Actually it's not only fair but was something that was stated when vendors started selling on the site. Vendors weren't suppose to sell fish, corals or inverts that had a bad survival rate. The bigger problem is vendors are bring in fish & corals, that are hard to keep, and giving the standard response all the time, "it looks great and is eating like a pig" or "it's open and the polyps are fully extended." There's never anything listed that this fish, coral or invert is very hard to keep and only experience people should purchase it. I consistently keep seeing people buy things that have very little chance of making it only to see it die in their tanks. The vendors on this board were suppose to be better than that and they aren't.


This is not a hobby where people should sell fish, corals and Inverts, and at a profit too, that have very little change of survival just so people can experiment on them. Tons of fish, corals and inverts die because people think they can keep something alive. This is a hobby were people need to be responsible for keeping these animals alive. And money shouldn't be an issue just because someone can afford to spend a lot more than someone else.

 

[Domboski]

I agree with you Mike but with the Internet and everything, no one can fully blame the vendor. How simple is it to go to http://www.peteducation.com/ and almost find any animal and the key care information? or post on our great forum and ask people with experience?

I am wondering if anyone has put pressure on the vendors to provide this information? Probably not.

 

[NYreefNoob]

Who Is To Blame

i have never done business with micheal yet, but i do plan to do so. in my thoughts i would hope if i bought a fish like that that he would replace it. but for me to pay the actual cost of the fish to replace it with. no profit to be made, but you also have to take in consider his time involved. i wouldnt expect him to be at a loss for the fish. but to let me get another at cost if i decided to replace or to give me the profit part back. i run a major business myself and someone bashing my service is 1 bad manners and un-ethical and kinda childish, dont get me wrong id be pissed too. but these are live specimens. hell i have lost 5 true perc's in 3 months. so i went and bought another, 3 weeks and it's still alive yay for me. i really dont feel this should have ever been brought to this board in the first place and the rest of the vendors being dragged in isnt right either. if you have a problem with a particular person or vendor, go to them about it. i and for other's to all of a sudden jump on the wagon and start also really isnt fair. should have said something when it happened dont wait for another person to speak up and then post your comments. we are all grow ups here and should act accordingly. **** happen's. dont get me wrong i am not taking side's. have no reason to, but i kept coming to this site because of the info and knowledge to gain. i hope you two work what ever out on this

 

[marrone]

I agree with you Mike but with the Internet and everything, no one can fully blame the vendor. How simple is it to go to http://www.peteducation.com/ and almost find any animal and the key care information? or post on our great forum and ask people with experience?

I am wondering if anyone has put pressure on the vendors to provide this information? Probably not.

Dom

I know what you're saying and you are right, people should do a lot of research before they buy anything. I myself have had people ask me about certain fish before they bought them. But what happens a lot of time is someone gets in a really pretty fish or coral and everyone just wants it. There is no warning from the vendors that the fish or coral is hard to keep and the survival rate is horrible, and it should be left to an expert. To make matters worst everyone else see the fish or coral and want one. The vendors then bring in a whole of the item only to have them die in peoples tank.

So in short part of the problem is that people need to do some research before they buy something but the vendor also need to take responsibility in what they sell and to who they sell it to.

M

PS: I'm not bashing Michael Stern as this can be said for all the vendors here.

 

[digitalreefer]

Although the vendors don't publish this info, all it takes is asking "I have an xx gallon tank with xx lighting, xx skimming, and xx tankmates. Is this fish appropriate?" I don't think there's a single vendor on this site that would lie if asked the above statement. At least 2 vendors here have told me I shouldn't get something once I asked that simple question.

 

[michael stern]

Mike,

I do appreciate your point about hard to care for animals.

For the record, on my website, I always indicate hard to care for fish.
Second, not a day or 2 goes by when I don't sell fish to someone due to inexperience, incompatability, or overcrowding. No, if someone places an order on my site, I do not call and interogate them about their tank or experience. When anyone asks me, or comes to my house, I do.

For instance, I have a black ribbon eel in stock. I know, very difficult. I am intrigued by them. I have twice refused to sell it to customers. I am working on getting it eating. When it does, then I would sell it to an experienced hobbiest. Frankly, all of our fish are better left in the ocean. Where does one draw the line. And IMO, flame wrasses do not belong in that category. But I respect peoples opinions to the contrary.