Austrailia outlaws coral harvesting
- Thread starter JohnD
- Start date
Why not yeild respect for those involved in efforts to sort out the information this hobby contains? The only way to wean the hobbyists off wild cought goniopora is to provide a captive bred product that is a better product. I dont see any captive Goniopora avail at this time so, We are far from achieving the goal of replacing demand with captive stock.On the road to a hobby that sustains itself with out taking from the reefs,The process of discovering How to supply captive based animals, Can appear at times an unpleasent journey down the same old path.........Just Imagine one day in the future when, spoken in any LFS in the USA: the words " No,Ms. all goniopora are captive grown today. the wild ones just dont survive as well.... We as a hobby cant get to that day if we slam on the brakes now...
kalkbreath,
that would be a wonderful site indeed. but the problem lies in the fact that if wild goniopora is still available, along with many almost impossible to keep species, it will be much cheaper than captive grown specimens and much larger in size. plus the fact that many LFS's live off the fact that they die, and they expect the customer to come back in a few months to purchase another.
loosbrew
that would be a wonderful site indeed. but the problem lies in the fact that if wild goniopora is still available, along with many almost impossible to keep species, it will be much cheaper than captive grown specimens and much larger in size. plus the fact that many LFS's live off the fact that they die, and they expect the customer to come back in a few months to purchase another.
loosbrew
From What I have learned I do owe DBW an appology and I give one.
I have worked with Endangered speicies for many years and what Mary MH is doing is extremely wrong. She is a importer of SW fish and inverts. She is not looking out the best intrests off nothing but her business. This is why so many businesses have conflict of intrest regulations to prevent people who have a stake in the importation of livestock to pass themselves off as anything other than that.
Many speicies of animals have been seriously comprimised and sent to extintion because of unethical business practices of people. GO THROUGH THIS POST AND SEE HOW MANY TIMES SHE HAS CHANGED HER STORY.
People like this present a danger to our hobby and to lifestock in general.
I have worked with Endangered speicies for many years and what Mary MH is doing is extremely wrong. She is a importer of SW fish and inverts. She is not looking out the best intrests off nothing but her business. This is why so many businesses have conflict of intrest regulations to prevent people who have a stake in the importation of livestock to pass themselves off as anything other than that.
Many speicies of animals have been seriously comprimised and sent to extintion because of unethical business practices of people. GO THROUGH THIS POST AND SEE HOW MANY TIMES SHE HAS CHANGED HER STORY.
People like this present a danger to our hobby and to lifestock in general.
The discussion on Goniopora spp raises an interesting questions..
I don't think that even if every tank had a Goniopora that the chances of survival would get any better. 90% of hobbyists are not contributing to the research.
In the US you have so many coral farms producing so many fantastic corals, far more than we have in Australia. I struggle to understand the reason to continue selling wild corals to the general public. Especially something like Goniopora spp.
To stay "on topic" i would suggest that the GBRMPA (Park Authoritys) sit down with collectors, scientists and hobbyists and put together a list of species that are not viable for collection for commercial purposes.
This silly proposal by Hill is a good opportunity for us the further improve the industry in our country.
Matt
I don't think that even if every tank had a Goniopora that the chances of survival would get any better. 90% of hobbyists are not contributing to the research.
In the US you have so many coral farms producing so many fantastic corals, far more than we have in Australia. I struggle to understand the reason to continue selling wild corals to the general public. Especially something like Goniopora spp.
To stay "on topic" i would suggest that the GBRMPA (Park Authoritys) sit down with collectors, scientists and hobbyists and put together a list of species that are not viable for collection for commercial purposes.
This silly proposal by Hill is a good opportunity for us the further improve the industry in our country.
Matt
Ah, I see that this thread has taken a new twist... oh well what the hell...
Mary,
Don't get me wrong, I think that it is excellent that somebody representing the import and dealers comes onto these boards to "face the music". Far too often, the people dealing in these creatures fail to educate themselves and/or put their views across on these types of issues. Having said that, I think that you are very wrong in your stance on Goniopora. Everything that I am about to say is based on my experience as an Australian hobbyist and as we have already establised that can present some inherent differences. However, of my reading on this point and talking to people from the U.S. and elsewhere, it seems to be a common theme.
For a start, for all I know, stories about Goniopora spp doing well in reef tanks could be a myth. They generally do very well for 6-12 months but then invariably die. The only credible stories that I have heard of long term success is in a couple of large public aquariums running on open systems. I am all for research on this type of thing but I would not call hoards of novice aquarist buying this coral to later watch it die research. There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of people buying this coral for home aquariums are novices and allowing the average novice aquarist (indeed encouraging it) access to this coral I believe adds little to knowledge of its requirements in captivity. The inevitable outcome is that the same mistake is made over and over again ad nauseum. That is hardly a scientific approach. Perhaps this is an area where licensing aquarists to keep certain types of inverts would be sensible. At the very least, I believe that it should be mandatory for anybody selling Goniopora spp. and some other hard/impossible corals, to advertise their poor record in captivity and difficulty in keeping them as I would say that most people buy them not knowing this. Selling this type of coral without a warning is a bit like selling a car with a major design fault (eg in the brakes) without disclosing this and when the customer brings it back saying "yeah, we were just getting you to do some research on that for us. How did it go?". A coordinated, more scientific approach on this would be something different again. Perhaps you could suggest stopping large scale import and only supplying to people who specifically ask for them and have something new to try? Failing something like that I think that your position is untenable and irresponsible I am afraid. I think the fact that you quoted about them being the third most imported coral speaks volumes for the magnitude of the slaughter and really dispeals the idea that they are just being brought in for research.
my $0.02 as an outsider... hey cool, this thing cuts both ways
Gavan
Mary,
Don't get me wrong, I think that it is excellent that somebody representing the import and dealers comes onto these boards to "face the music". Far too often, the people dealing in these creatures fail to educate themselves and/or put their views across on these types of issues. Having said that, I think that you are very wrong in your stance on Goniopora. Everything that I am about to say is based on my experience as an Australian hobbyist and as we have already establised that can present some inherent differences. However, of my reading on this point and talking to people from the U.S. and elsewhere, it seems to be a common theme.
For a start, for all I know, stories about Goniopora spp doing well in reef tanks could be a myth. They generally do very well for 6-12 months but then invariably die. The only credible stories that I have heard of long term success is in a couple of large public aquariums running on open systems. I am all for research on this type of thing but I would not call hoards of novice aquarist buying this coral to later watch it die research. There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of people buying this coral for home aquariums are novices and allowing the average novice aquarist (indeed encouraging it) access to this coral I believe adds little to knowledge of its requirements in captivity. The inevitable outcome is that the same mistake is made over and over again ad nauseum. That is hardly a scientific approach. Perhaps this is an area where licensing aquarists to keep certain types of inverts would be sensible. At the very least, I believe that it should be mandatory for anybody selling Goniopora spp. and some other hard/impossible corals, to advertise their poor record in captivity and difficulty in keeping them as I would say that most people buy them not knowing this. Selling this type of coral without a warning is a bit like selling a car with a major design fault (eg in the brakes) without disclosing this and when the customer brings it back saying "yeah, we were just getting you to do some research on that for us. How did it go?". A coordinated, more scientific approach on this would be something different again. Perhaps you could suggest stopping large scale import and only supplying to people who specifically ask for them and have something new to try? Failing something like that I think that your position is untenable and irresponsible I am afraid. I think the fact that you quoted about them being the third most imported coral speaks volumes for the magnitude of the slaughter and really dispeals the idea that they are just being brought in for research.
my $0.02 as an outsider... hey cool, this thing cuts both ways
Gavan
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by matt_rains:
<STRONG>To stay "on topic" i would suggest that the GBRMPA (Park Authoritys) sit down with collectors, scientists and hobbyists and put together a list of species that are not viable for collection for commercial purposes.
This silly proposal by Hill is a good opportunity for us the further improve the industry in our country.
Matt</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Matt,
The icon at the top of my post says it all... but I think that will be another battle in itself and one that we will have to beat Hill to have. All the contacts that are being made on the Hill battle might be a positive outcome of all of this.
Gavan
<STRONG>To stay "on topic" i would suggest that the GBRMPA (Park Authoritys) sit down with collectors, scientists and hobbyists and put together a list of species that are not viable for collection for commercial purposes.
This silly proposal by Hill is a good opportunity for us the further improve the industry in our country.
Matt</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Matt,
The icon at the top of my post says it all... but I think that will be another battle in itself and one that we will have to beat Hill to have. All the contacts that are being made on the Hill battle might be a positive outcome of all of this.
Gavan
If you can skate through the flames in these posts, there is a lot of interesting dialogue going on. I can only guess that is the reason the post is still open. I am one of the "lucky few" to have kept a goni past the 2 year mark I guess. It was eventually killed by an almost impossible to kill aip outbreak that also claimed a colt and bubble coral.
Gavan,
how's it feel with shoe on the other foot?
I think "your" idea for a license for difficult to keep organisms is an interesting one. I don't know how practical it is over here with "I can do what I want read the first amendment" crowd. It is a blanket for many things that, to my eyes and brain, simply don't apply. On the other hand, we have to have a licsence to shoot guns, drive a car, and vote. I think if the hobbiest and distributors could get together it could happen. I know one thing, though. If we don't try it can't happen.
Ok all of you who want to limit or stop the coral harvesting in Australia, lets start another thread and see how many of us are willing to do something. It will be called "hard to keep license."
Mary,
If you are still reading this after the major attack you have just undergone
, what do you think the reception would be among the distributors?
well, going to start the other post.
Gavan,
how's it feel with shoe on the other foot?
Ok all of you who want to limit or stop the coral harvesting in Australia, lets start another thread and see how many of us are willing to do something. It will be called "hard to keep license."
Mary,
If you are still reading this after the major attack you have just undergone
well, going to start the other post.
The reality is that 99% percent of EVERYTHING dies within a year,More damsels and yellow tangs are killed by this hobby both in number and by weight Then Goniopora? Why such a soft heart for the Gonies? This whole hobby is a slaughterfest..We on this board make up the tiny group of successful hobbyists in a vast sea of death....Even in the ocean the vast Majority of young fish and inverts ` are eaten within their first year.. Ps I have a goniopora that has done fine for over three years and has doubled in size? Yet yellow tangs drop like flies? An djudging by the number of Damsels and Yellow tangs sold in this town ,the hobbyists tanks should be filled to the rim even if 10% lived , yet they are not..... Explain to us just what animals you see fit for this hobby to take from the Sea, And while your at it explain why its ok for you to displace land creatures in order for you to live in a house that was once a forrest.. And lastly explain to us why one example is "different" (when viewed from an animals point of view?) Just curios?I have left out names ,so this anyone can respond....?
Steve,
Yes, I'm still reading- I'm just finished with defending myself, my credentials, and my ideals against people who can't see the big picture
Until my criticizers get out and join some of the leading organizations (IMA, MAC, MASNA), get in the trenches, and try to create the reform they so enjoy "talking about", I have nothing more to say to them.
As far as getting hobbyists and distributors together on anything, my general opinion is forget it. As we've seen in this post, and as I've seen many other times, most hobbyists do not understand the workings of the industry. Very few industry professionals would bother trying to explain it to them. That's what I try to do, and I feel that I do a pretty good job at it...but I am just one woman and have too many irons in the fire as it is. If the hobbyists want to get together and "do something", I'd highly recommend dealing with the only organization for the hobbyists- MASNA. (www.masna.org). As far as a "hard to keep license", who determines what's hard to keep? Who determines when it's no longer hard to keep? I'll go back to the SPS example from a few posts ago. If we had this license, VERY few hobbyists would ever have had the chance to keep SPS. I guarantee they would still be on the "hard to keep list" because there weren't enough available for people to "experiment" (term loosely used) with. Without the mass availability, people would never have stumbled upon the techniques necessary for keeping this coral in captivity. I think it's a much better idea to try to come up with some type of a systematic way of educating hobbyists about certain species at the point of sell- perhaps via flyers distributed at the LFS. I think this is something that AMDA and MASNA could really get their teeth into and put a good, solid, consistent program into place. Any thoughts??
Yes, I'm still reading- I'm just finished with defending myself, my credentials, and my ideals against people who can't see the big picture
As far as getting hobbyists and distributors together on anything, my general opinion is forget it. As we've seen in this post, and as I've seen many other times, most hobbyists do not understand the workings of the industry. Very few industry professionals would bother trying to explain it to them. That's what I try to do, and I feel that I do a pretty good job at it...but I am just one woman and have too many irons in the fire as it is. If the hobbyists want to get together and "do something", I'd highly recommend dealing with the only organization for the hobbyists- MASNA. (www.masna.org). As far as a "hard to keep license", who determines what's hard to keep? Who determines when it's no longer hard to keep? I'll go back to the SPS example from a few posts ago. If we had this license, VERY few hobbyists would ever have had the chance to keep SPS. I guarantee they would still be on the "hard to keep list" because there weren't enough available for people to "experiment" (term loosely used) with. Without the mass availability, people would never have stumbled upon the techniques necessary for keeping this coral in captivity. I think it's a much better idea to try to come up with some type of a systematic way of educating hobbyists about certain species at the point of sell- perhaps via flyers distributed at the LFS. I think this is something that AMDA and MASNA could really get their teeth into and put a good, solid, consistent program into place. Any thoughts??
GavAn:
Just re-read your post and saw something I thought I should comment on:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
The Goniopora Research Project IS a coordinated scientific approach. That's why it has taken me over 5 months to even begin to get started
Participants won't be going into their LFS to pick up a couple of Gonis. All of the Gonis will be of the same species, collected from the same area, and distributed to the participants through my facility to insure this. Their will be 40-50 replicates. The experiment will span a period of one year, recording parameters that will help us test our hypothesis. The findings will then be published in a scientific publication. This isn't going to be a mickey-mouse deal- I'm working very hard to make sure it is coordinated, organized, and carried out in the proper manner. And by the way, I FULLY agree that novices should be warned about the current low survivability rates before they purchase it. But you know what? From having a retail store I can tell you that the majority of them won't care. They'll buy now, worry later. Frustrating, but true.
Just re-read your post and saw something I thought I should comment on:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
The Goniopora Research Project IS a coordinated scientific approach. That's why it has taken me over 5 months to even begin to get started
The SPS example explains why. Without the availability, how will we ever acquire the knowledge we need to keep this coral? I have a pretty good feeling that Gonis are just like the SPS of 10 years ago...there is "something" that we aren't giving them yet. It's just a matter of time before someone unlocks the key and Gonis are as easy to keep as Brains!
Think of how hard is was to keep ANY marine ornamentals when we first started back in the 60's. If everyone said- "This hobby is impossible- you can not keep marinelife in a glass box in your living room, so the public should not have access to it" then there would be no hobby....Look at the AMAZING advances that have been made pretty much in the last 15 or so years. I'm totally looking forward to seeing where we are in another 5, 10, 15, etc... I believe that captive propagation- both in-situ and US based will be playing a major role instead of the minor role it has now. Stick around guys- this hobby is ever changing and it's a kick to watch it grow!
Think of how hard is was to keep ANY marine ornamentals when we first started back in the 60's. If everyone said- "This hobby is impossible- you can not keep marinelife in a glass box in your living room, so the public should not have access to it" then there would be no hobby....Look at the AMAZING advances that have been made pretty much in the last 15 or so years. I'm totally looking forward to seeing where we are in another 5, 10, 15, etc... I believe that captive propagation- both in-situ and US based will be playing a major role instead of the minor role it has now. Stick around guys- this hobby is ever changing and it's a kick to watch it grow!
A quote from Eric Bornemans Aquarium Corals "Because of their poor survival in captivity, Goniopora cannot be recommended for ongoing collection and sale. Despite their dismal track record, many suppliers continue to import them in large numbers."
Mary, I did not see where Mr Borneman said there are some Goniopora that do well in captivity. His book is very detailed and he actually breaks down other species as to ease of care. It seems to me with Goniopora that he made a blanket statement that included all Goniopora species.
Steve
Mary, I did not see where Mr Borneman said there are some Goniopora that do well in captivity. His book is very detailed and he actually breaks down other species as to ease of care. It seems to me with Goniopora that he made a blanket statement that included all Goniopora species.
Steve
EB has actually told me personally that he had a goni doing well in an eel or turtle grass(i cant remember now) tank. i think he said someone had given it to him to try and "save" it. i would say that it is too difficult to determine which species does well and whoch dont, too many variables, just like sps. IMHO of course.
loosbrew
loosbrew
All I can say is WOW! When I started this post, I never expected both the quantity of responses as well as the depth (no pun intended) of the discussion. I have never posted anything on this board that got such an overwhelming response.
Half of me wanted to voice my own opinions and the other half wanted to see how this thread would play out. The latter won out. I checked the thread every day and I was always amazed that it was always on page one. At least until today.
I think this post has pretty much played itself out, but I wish to add a couple of pennies, so as to get my two cents worth in. Folks made a lot of great comments. I believe we are responsible hobbyists and only want the best for our critters and the hobby. We just don't all agree on the path to get us to that ultimate destination. Even though some us feel pretty strongly about some of the issues raised and may have gotten a little hot under the collar, at the end of the day we are all concerned reefers.
I can only hope the ban does not go into effect, but that the reef be continually managed in a responsible manner. The one good feature about the proposed ban IMHO is the resulting discussion that ensues. I can only hope our discussion here is part of the larger dialog on the conservation of our environment, both marine and terrestrial.
Thanks again for such a lively discussion.
JohnD
Half of me wanted to voice my own opinions and the other half wanted to see how this thread would play out. The latter won out. I checked the thread every day and I was always amazed that it was always on page one. At least until today.
I think this post has pretty much played itself out, but I wish to add a couple of pennies, so as to get my two cents worth in. Folks made a lot of great comments. I believe we are responsible hobbyists and only want the best for our critters and the hobby. We just don't all agree on the path to get us to that ultimate destination. Even though some us feel pretty strongly about some of the issues raised and may have gotten a little hot under the collar, at the end of the day we are all concerned reefers.
I can only hope the ban does not go into effect, but that the reef be continually managed in a responsible manner. The one good feature about the proposed ban IMHO is the resulting discussion that ensues. I can only hope our discussion here is part of the larger dialog on the conservation of our environment, both marine and terrestrial.
Thanks again for such a lively discussion.
JohnD
I certainly found it interesting and respect the views of everyone who contributed to the discussion. Even though we weren't all going to agree on every aspect I'm sure we all have the interests of the earths reefs at heart and don't want to see them vanish.
The Reefs.org board has also picked up a few more reefers from this side of the Pacific and quite a few from your side popped up on the RTAW board. Thats gotta ge a good thing too !!.
The Reefs.org board has also picked up a few more reefers from this side of the Pacific and quite a few from your side popped up on the RTAW board. Thats gotta ge a good thing too !!.
Im new to this so dont flame me to badly. I dont understand what the facination is with the Goniopora? Why is it that it has to be imported? Why do we have to have it in the tank? I mean out of the hundreds of marine species available, why keep one that is almost certainly going to expire. I think the main problem is that we have to many people with money to blow on corals that are dead before they leave the LFS.
Mary, I think if you really wanted to help the situation with the goniopora, you would advocate a restriction on numbers or even a ban on how many are brought into the US. Once you figure out what the missing piece is to keeping them alive and thriving, let the world know. Then the importing could begin.
I began this hobby because I enjoy seeing 1/2 inch frags of coral grow and mature in my tank. Between the choices of a small frag and a whole colony I would rather go with a frag. If the hobbiest has the best-interest of the specimens in mind, wouldnt they be more interested in the higher chance of the frag living and adapting to tank conditions then the death of a whole colony?
I think the higher powers should make a concentrated effort to limit importation of species that have low to nill survival rates. If they really want to help the hobby, do more research like Mary is doing. Find out how to keep the specimans alive for an infinite amount of time in tanks, THEN import them in. At least this way we can try to have a sustainable amount of specimens in the trade. Not merely importing new ones in everytime one dies....
Just IMO folks....
Nick
Mary, I think if you really wanted to help the situation with the goniopora, you would advocate a restriction on numbers or even a ban on how many are brought into the US. Once you figure out what the missing piece is to keeping them alive and thriving, let the world know. Then the importing could begin.
I began this hobby because I enjoy seeing 1/2 inch frags of coral grow and mature in my tank. Between the choices of a small frag and a whole colony I would rather go with a frag. If the hobbiest has the best-interest of the specimens in mind, wouldnt they be more interested in the higher chance of the frag living and adapting to tank conditions then the death of a whole colony?
I think the higher powers should make a concentrated effort to limit importation of species that have low to nill survival rates. If they really want to help the hobby, do more research like Mary is doing. Find out how to keep the specimans alive for an infinite amount of time in tanks, THEN import them in. At least this way we can try to have a sustainable amount of specimens in the trade. Not merely importing new ones in everytime one dies....
Just IMO folks....
Nick
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