who is this guy anyway??
- Thread starter new reefer in michigan
- Start date
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jeremy Russell:
<strong>Careful boys & Girls.. they might sue you for 15 million dollars
</strong><hr></blockquote>
How does it go? Oh yeah, "Can't squeeze blood from a turnip."!
Mark
<strong>Careful boys & Girls.. they might sue you for 15 million dollars
How does it go? Oh yeah, "Can't squeeze blood from a turnip."!
Mark
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MarkS:
<strong>"Can't squeeze blood from a turnip"</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are right, they can't.........................but it will make the turnip VERY VERY MISERABLE!
<strong>"Can't squeeze blood from a turnip"</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are right, they can't.........................but it will make the turnip VERY VERY MISERABLE!
JoshF on page 1-
Sure, the corals in the dark might have lived 3 weeks while the others died in 2 weeks. But this says absolutely nothing about longterm viability.
Besides, if you compare the results of all the reefers doing everything they can to "starve" their corals with the hypothetical reefer who keeps his corals in the dark...
Sure, the corals in the dark might have lived 3 weeks while the others died in 2 weeks. But this says absolutely nothing about longterm viability.
Besides, if you compare the results of all the reefers doing everything they can to "starve" their corals with the hypothetical reefer who keeps his corals in the dark...
Bowser:
So, the problem occurs when the "guru" decides to sell products?
Of course not. The problem occurs when the "guru" decides to sell products that he/she can't or won't explain. If I market a product called Coral+Vanilla that I claim cures ick becauses I can demonstrate, scientifically, that Vanilla kills cryptocaryon, versus if I just say it's secret Vanilla and enzyme formulation biogenetically retrogrades the ick into feeling very, very ashamed of itself, do you not see a difference?
And you have determined these products to be of no value?
Nope. But I have determined the marketing behind them to be of no value, presenting no satisfactory rationale for their use, no explication of function or process. If I offer to sell you Coral+Charles because I say it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, would you be willing to buy it? If you say yes, it's solely because you have faith in me, and certainly not because you have any idea of how the product works, what it really does, or what's in it.
Even though you may not like the wording on the advertisement, this is nothing new.
Car ads don't claim to biochemically stimulate your blood matrix into liquid crystal, resulting in your boosted immune system and a pearly white smile, either, which would be comparable to the claims in these manufacturer's ads. They make specific claims that are just plain scientifically inaccurate. Again, do you not see a difference?
When people say that, for example, brine shrimp has no real nutritional value, they aren't saying this from scientific knowledge of their own making!
No, they're saying it from a body of scientific knowledge from the mariculture industry that gives far greater weight to their statements then if they were simply a lone individual running a few simple experiments.
They are saying this based on the knowledge of someone like Sprung, or Shimek, who has done the actual research. So the people you are bashing are the ones who provided you with the information that you have!
Pardon me, but are you suggesting that because someone has contributed something of value, they reach a mystical state of enlightenment guaranteeing that every statement they make afterwards will always be correct, accurate and insightful? People make mistakes, and the experts are no exceptions. Or haven't you ever noticed that half of them continuously contradict the other half?
the problem I am having with this discussion is the fact that everyone is "saying" the product is bad, yet no one has done any actual testing of it. How can you bash it if you don't know?
For all I know it's God Gift to Reefkeepers. I do not bash it's efficacy (although I've yet to hear any convincing arguments in it's favor, either), I bash it's combination of meaningless claims and lack of disclosure.
Your statement that our tanks are so pristine and natural. LOL That was kinda funny, after all our tanks are anything but pristine and natural!!!
Thank you for making my point for me. Indeed, conditions in our tanks are neither pristine nor natural, even with us striving to make them that way. So again, who in their right mind would add a product of unknown ingrediants to the mix?
So, the problem occurs when the "guru" decides to sell products?
Of course not. The problem occurs when the "guru" decides to sell products that he/she can't or won't explain. If I market a product called Coral+Vanilla that I claim cures ick becauses I can demonstrate, scientifically, that Vanilla kills cryptocaryon, versus if I just say it's secret Vanilla and enzyme formulation biogenetically retrogrades the ick into feeling very, very ashamed of itself, do you not see a difference?
And you have determined these products to be of no value?
Nope. But I have determined the marketing behind them to be of no value, presenting no satisfactory rationale for their use, no explication of function or process. If I offer to sell you Coral+Charles because I say it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, would you be willing to buy it? If you say yes, it's solely because you have faith in me, and certainly not because you have any idea of how the product works, what it really does, or what's in it.
Even though you may not like the wording on the advertisement, this is nothing new.
Car ads don't claim to biochemically stimulate your blood matrix into liquid crystal, resulting in your boosted immune system and a pearly white smile, either, which would be comparable to the claims in these manufacturer's ads. They make specific claims that are just plain scientifically inaccurate. Again, do you not see a difference?
When people say that, for example, brine shrimp has no real nutritional value, they aren't saying this from scientific knowledge of their own making!
No, they're saying it from a body of scientific knowledge from the mariculture industry that gives far greater weight to their statements then if they were simply a lone individual running a few simple experiments.
They are saying this based on the knowledge of someone like Sprung, or Shimek, who has done the actual research. So the people you are bashing are the ones who provided you with the information that you have!
Pardon me, but are you suggesting that because someone has contributed something of value, they reach a mystical state of enlightenment guaranteeing that every statement they make afterwards will always be correct, accurate and insightful? People make mistakes, and the experts are no exceptions. Or haven't you ever noticed that half of them continuously contradict the other half?
the problem I am having with this discussion is the fact that everyone is "saying" the product is bad, yet no one has done any actual testing of it. How can you bash it if you don't know?
For all I know it's God Gift to Reefkeepers. I do not bash it's efficacy (although I've yet to hear any convincing arguments in it's favor, either), I bash it's combination of meaningless claims and lack of disclosure.
Your statement that our tanks are so pristine and natural. LOL That was kinda funny, after all our tanks are anything but pristine and natural!!!
Thank you for making my point for me. Indeed, conditions in our tanks are neither pristine nor natural, even with us striving to make them that way. So again, who in their right mind would add a product of unknown ingrediants to the mix?
Ron's article is a good one. If you could manage to track down the thread where he first announced his interest in doing it, and asking for suggestions of which products to test, you'd find I'm the one who suggested including coral+vital.
Am I the only one, however, who finds it funny that while coral+vital has the same nutritional profile as brine shrimp, prior to Ron's article it was not marketed as a nutritional additive? It made plenty of other claims, but not that one.
Am I the only one, however, who finds it funny that while coral+vital has the same nutritional profile as brine shrimp, prior to Ron's article it was not marketed as a nutritional additive? It made plenty of other claims, but not that one.
In reply:
Of course not. The problem occurs when the "guru" decides to sell products that he/she can't or won't explain. I agree that the marketing is lacking. Why he won't go into more detail is something I can only speculate about. But that doesn't change the product itself.
Nope. But I have determined the marketing behind them to be of no value.... So, in other words, you can claim no knowledge of the product, just the ads.....
They make specific claims that are just plain scientifically inaccurate. Again, do you not see the difference? Don't you see the resemblance?
Pardon me, but are you suggesting that because someone has contributed something of value, they reach a mystical state of enlightenment quaranteeing that every statement they make afterwards will always be correct, accurate and insightful? No, of course not, but why do you think your limited experience gives you more? I do not mean that in an offensive way, I am just trying to get my point across. How many saltwater species have you bred? Do you have a degree in Marine Biology? Microbiology? Chemistry?
I do not bash it's efficacy (although I've yet to hear any convincing arguments in it's favor, either), I bash it's combination of meaningless claims and lack of disclosure. So we're back to marketing......
So again, who in their right mind would add a product of unknown ingrediants to the mix?I agree with you on that, I never said that I used the stuff, just that you are basing this argument more on marketing strategies than any actual experience. Many people add vinegar to their tanks, as yet, I haven't seen any studies done on that, but people still do it.
The last thing I wanted to say was I hope you (or anyone) doesn't take this the wrong way, I am simply voicing my opinion.
Of course not. The problem occurs when the "guru" decides to sell products that he/she can't or won't explain. I agree that the marketing is lacking. Why he won't go into more detail is something I can only speculate about. But that doesn't change the product itself.
Nope. But I have determined the marketing behind them to be of no value.... So, in other words, you can claim no knowledge of the product, just the ads.....
They make specific claims that are just plain scientifically inaccurate. Again, do you not see the difference? Don't you see the resemblance?
Pardon me, but are you suggesting that because someone has contributed something of value, they reach a mystical state of enlightenment quaranteeing that every statement they make afterwards will always be correct, accurate and insightful? No, of course not, but why do you think your limited experience gives you more? I do not mean that in an offensive way, I am just trying to get my point across. How many saltwater species have you bred? Do you have a degree in Marine Biology? Microbiology? Chemistry?
I do not bash it's efficacy (although I've yet to hear any convincing arguments in it's favor, either), I bash it's combination of meaningless claims and lack of disclosure. So we're back to marketing......
So again, who in their right mind would add a product of unknown ingrediants to the mix?I agree with you on that, I never said that I used the stuff, just that you are basing this argument more on marketing strategies than any actual experience. Many people add vinegar to their tanks, as yet, I haven't seen any studies done on that, but people still do it.
The last thing I wanted to say was I hope you (or anyone) doesn't take this the wrong way, I am simply voicing my opinion.
Bowser:
So, in other words, you can claim no knowledge of the product, just the ads.....
Indeed. As I mentioned elsewhere in the post, the stuff could work miracles... but until the product justifies it's claims and divulges what it contains (without even needing to be the specific formula, just an ingrediants list would be something), I wouldn't use it.
Don't you see the resemblance?
Not really, no. If a car company ran an ad using the same sort of specific claims as some of these products, I imagine they'd have an attorney serving them papers related to fraud and false advertising.
No, of course not, but why do you think your limited experience gives you more?
No, I think it gives me enough. Enough to question, enough to look for answers... and enough to realize when answers are either not forthcoming, or when presented simply side-step the question.
Many people add vinegar to their tanks, as yet, I haven't seen any studies done on that, but people still do it.
Actually, Craig's done significant work. I believe he posted at length about the details of it in rec.aquaria.marine.reefs recently.
The last thing I wanted to say was I hope you (or anyone) doesn't take this the wrong way, I am simply voicing my opinion.
No worries, I quite understand.
So, in other words, you can claim no knowledge of the product, just the ads.....
Indeed. As I mentioned elsewhere in the post, the stuff could work miracles... but until the product justifies it's claims and divulges what it contains (without even needing to be the specific formula, just an ingrediants list would be something), I wouldn't use it.
Don't you see the resemblance?
Not really, no. If a car company ran an ad using the same sort of specific claims as some of these products, I imagine they'd have an attorney serving them papers related to fraud and false advertising.
No, of course not, but why do you think your limited experience gives you more?
No, I think it gives me enough. Enough to question, enough to look for answers... and enough to realize when answers are either not forthcoming, or when presented simply side-step the question.
Many people add vinegar to their tanks, as yet, I haven't seen any studies done on that, but people still do it.
Actually, Craig's done significant work. I believe he posted at length about the details of it in rec.aquaria.marine.reefs recently.
The last thing I wanted to say was I hope you (or anyone) doesn't take this the wrong way, I am simply voicing my opinion.
No worries, I quite understand.
BTW, using it in a tank that has other problems doesn't count, like the tank with the melting corals......
I was indicating the effect the product had on my tank. Tank was fine been set up for about a year. Bought a jar of black powder out of curiosity to see what the deal was. I added the Black powder to my tank. The corals would open up and extend their polyps for a few minutes then all of the softies would "melt" (i.e. deflate) about an haour later they would be back to normal. The deflation of the softies was the only effect noted that was a result of the product.
Glenn
I was indicating the effect the product had on my tank. Tank was fine been set up for about a year. Bought a jar of black powder out of curiosity to see what the deal was. I added the Black powder to my tank. The corals would open up and extend their polyps for a few minutes then all of the softies would "melt" (i.e. deflate) about an haour later they would be back to normal. The deflation of the softies was the only effect noted that was a result of the product.
Glenn
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mabu:
<strong>Based on what I read, it seems like there's nothing special about it - still I bought some, so I'll try it and see what happens..
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sucker
[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: MiNdErAsR ]</p>
<strong>Based on what I read, it seems like there's nothing special about it - still I bought some, so I'll try it and see what happens..
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sucker
[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: MiNdErAsR ]</p>
I am curious to how well his products work. I have seen his products and Him slaughtered before on this board. No one made a comment based on experience with his product. I have talked to a number of people who have used his products. They swear by it. I'm not standing up for him, but I have learned that people tend to be very strongly opinionated about things they least understand. I am not refering to reefing in general just Marc Weiss's products. I would like to hear about his products from those who have used them not just looked at his corny marketing methods. Rover I did see your comment. Thanx
I don't mean to add gas to fire, so please don't get mad. I'm not trying to offend anyone of you.
Thanks
Andy
I don't mean to add gas to fire, so please don't get mad. I'm not trying to offend anyone of you.
Thanks
Andy
I wonder how much business I lose by refusing to carry stuff like this.. I mean, you can argue with people for a half hour about it, but after that they still want to buy it.. heh.
This is how it would go if I sold the magic potions in a bottle..
me: It sucks. It really sucks. You don't want it.
JoePublic: You don't like it? What do you put in your tanks? They look really nice.
me: nothing. I do water changes, and I have a calcium reactor... b-ionic in the little tanks.
JP: but the label is pretty, and it sounds cool... ok...give me the big bottle.
me: but you'll just be throwing your money away senselessly...
JP: Yeah, whatever.. you gonna sell it to me or not?
This is how it would go if I sold the magic potions in a bottle..
me: It sucks. It really sucks. You don't want it.
JoePublic: You don't like it? What do you put in your tanks? They look really nice.
me: nothing. I do water changes, and I have a calcium reactor... b-ionic in the little tanks.
JP: but the label is pretty, and it sounds cool... ok...give me the big bottle.
me: but you'll just be throwing your money away senselessly...
JP: Yeah, whatever.. you gonna sell it to me or not?
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