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Anonymous

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Marc's side....

Well here is the story from Marc's point of view. I especially like the reference to our "discussions" by Shimek. Seems like sarcasm to me.....

It's the second paragraph down and reefaquariumsecrets gets a plug too!!


I think they use the same marketing guy....

IMHO!!!

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[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Rover ]</p>
 

ging

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I know that I'm still a newbie to the reef world and don't like to fiddle to much by adding stuff. All I add is Kent calcium, strontium, iodine, fresh saltwater and food. My tank is really healthy and everything in the tank is happy. Could it be I'm setting myself up for a big mess in the future or should you stick to the basics ?
 

MattM

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jeremy Russell:
<strong>I wonder how much business I lose by refusing to carry stuff like this...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't worry Jeremy, we don't carry it either. IMO, the reputation of the products you carry reflects on your store.
 
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I don't plan on stocking them in my stores either. I feel it is important to be able to exaplain to customers how things work, without having to say "I dunno it just does!!"

Glenn
 
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So lets see where do we start. Listen guys I actually got on this site because I heard it was a great place to see what hobbyist were up to not to get into debates. I am here because I care about hobbyist aquariums and it does not matter to me if you use Marc's stuff or not. I do not contradict myself because my work is constant and I try to be as accurate as possible. Even the worlds top scientist could not tell you much more about our tanks than most of the top people in the trade and many have better luck keeping many corals and fish alive than they do!!! I do not want to be the new messiah in the hobby nor gods gift to anything. I am just a guy who has set up alot of tanks over the years and spent alot of time working with corals and fish. I have also helped alot of hobbyist out of a jam and continue to do so at no cost what so ever. My company is a private company does not sell a thing so again I make no money selling any products! I know who I am and my sign in name pretty much tells you who I am if you read FAMA or some of the other publications my name pops up in. As many have noticed my book that was supposed to be out by now has not been released yet because it is not just another book on how to set up a reef tank! Alot of my recent work has had nothing to do with Marc so there is no reason for me to promote his stuff. I work with many companies in the industry and use and test many different products. I run natural tanks with no filtration at all and have people from companies like Hagen, Tropical Science and many others besides Marc along with many respected people in our hobby that are aware of my systems and my work. I am actually for the hobbyist and spend alot of time trying to help out where I can. Truth is if I told the truth about alot of stuff in the hobby I would be out of work all together!!!! Yes it is money that drives this hobby I will be the first to admit that I have a big problem with that too. If you like Marc's stuff or not at least it isn't killing anything which is more than I can say about alot of stuff being sold to hobbyist! We could go round and round on Marc's stuff and personally I have way more important things to do. I have used Marc's stuff for years but prefer Reef Vital DNA over Coral Vital. Will my tanks survive if I stopped adding it probly but I will tell you my corals like the stuff and it is easier than mixing up the stuff myself so I get it from Marc. I use stuff from ESV as well along with a few other products. I am not a GURU
nor do I care to be one. I lose alot of money because I won't sell out to large companies and honestly do not care what people may think about my work. All that matters is that my tanks are healthy and any tank I have constructed has been healthy as well. If you choose not to use Marc's stuff fine there are combinations of other products that could give you similiar results. But Marc is a friend and I will stick up for him good or bad. Just as I expect any of you would do in the same spot. As for the brine shrimp I have never fed my tanks brine it is messy, adds alot of waste, and not a good source of nutrients unless supplimented with selcon or spectra vital. It can also cause binding and blockages in the intestines of smaller fish. But your corals do need to eat and it is just as important to them as good lighting so I recommend some sort of food for them. Since I use no filtration alot of my food source is naturally occuring within my tank. I have found too many people take things to the extreme and if we do that well anything on this site or in our hobby could be an argument. This is another big problem I have because while guys like myself get into debates which I have no problem with it is usually the hobbyist that gets confused in the mix!!! How can they know what is good for their tanks when all they hear is us arguing about it?????? Most of us know what works and what the basics are for a healthy system. We may have different approaches and use different products but the basics are still the same. Lets talk about that so they can benefit from it and not feel like their tank is gonna crash because they cannot afford the new $600 skimmer that you just gotta have? I would rather see a hobbyist invest that money in some good books and literature so they can see for themselves what is going on in their systems. For the one guy who posted no this is not Marc Weiss! You can bash Marc, myself, who ever you like it is a free country but I was hoping my time on this site could be better spent giving a tip or two to a hobbyist in need than trying to qualify myself. This is sad because that is probly why alot of professionals avoid forums such as this. Yes and as a professional I am not god and I make mistakes too it is just we call it research lol! As for me I have nothing to hide and even less to lose so for those who would like to have an inteligent conversation about their tank or have a question I might be able to help with I apologize for all this silliness and still would like to offer my help!

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: reefaquariumsecrets ]</p>
 
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Anonymous

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there are combinations of other products that could give you similiar results.

But there are no other companies that make similar claims.
 

JeremyR

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Well, shimek and sprung have certainly long been considered "gurus"... weiss was NEVER a marine "guru", he was a discus "guru" and that's a pretty large leap to go from one to the other instantly... the bashing aspect comes when a so called "guru" goes commercial and starts selling magic potions that are just a bunch of horse puckey.
 
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Anonymous

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I'll second Jeremy's sentiments. Being an "expert" is about furthering knowledge about the animals we keep and the environment we keep them in. Selling magic potions with secret ingrediants that make utterly preposterous claims that would be laughed at by a first year biochemistry student does absolutely nothing to further knowledge. In this regard it's actively detrimental; claims of "I don't know how it works, but it works!" (used by one manufacturer) or "We can't explain what it does other then to say it's magic!" (used by another manufacturer) are attempts to get you to buy a product without even trying to find answers.

To be honest, even if a product like Coral+Vital worked documented miracles I still wouldn't use it as long as it's ingrediants remain secret. We stress so much keeping the water in our systems as pristine and 'natural' as possible; hence RO systems, protein skimmers and an array of test kits. Why on earth, then, would someone want to add something with unknown contents blithely to their tank, taking on trust that what it contains not only actually works, but isn't actively harmful? Some of the commercial additives out there actually increase nitrate levels measurably; the manufacturer's claim that this isn't true, that the tests give a false reading when their product is used. But without knowing what the ingrediants are, it's flatly impossible to verify that these claims are true.

As to whom I consider more knowledgeable then myself, it's a long list, composed of folks who's work has served to further my understanding of the hobby. Shimek, Bingman, Borneman, Tullock, Moe, etc etc etc etc ad naseum. Which is not to say that I neccessarily agree with everything everyone of these gentlemen has said. But even when I disagree, it's obvious that these folks have a solid reason for believing as they do, which they are willing to actually explain. I've yet to see Marc Weiss, for example, provide a detailed analysis of why his products do what he claims they do, by what mechanisms they operate, and on what principles they are based.
 

bowser

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So, the problem occurs when the "guru" decides to sell products? And you have determined these products to be of no value? What tests did you run to determine this? How where they set up and what controls did you use? What specific product did you test and what were the ingredients/pecentage of each? How did you analyze the ingredients? Was this testing done by yourself or an independent testing agency? How long were the tests run and what subjects were used?

Even though you may not like the wording on the advertisement, this is nothing new. Car ads say that buying this paticular car will make you a new person. If you use this shampoo, everyone will like you better. Buy this kind of laundry detergent, and your life will improve.....

When people say that, for example, brine shrimp has no real nutritional value, they aren't saying this from scientific knowledge of their own making! They are saying this based on the knowledge of someone like Sprung, or Shimek, who has done the actual research. So the people you are bashing are the ones who provided you with the information that you have!


I have rambled on long enough (well almost) except for one last thing. I do not use any of the Weiss products myself, the problem I am having with this discussion is the fact that everyone is "saying" the product is bad, yet no one has done any actual testing of it. How can you bash it if you don't know?
BTW, using it in a tank that has other problems doesn't count, like the tank with the melting corals......
 

bowser

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Cjdevito~ we were posting about the same time, and there is one other thing I had to comment about. Your statement that our tanks are so pristine and natural. LOL
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That was kinda funny, after all our tanks are anything but pristine and natural!!!
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Iron

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Most ppl who flame coral vital have tried it.Your corals may repond to because there is nutrient value. I Guess what ppl who defend the product don't get it? it doesn't cure ICK. Most of his priductsdon't do what they CLAIM they may benifit in other ways? But not a what its sold as. IMO save your$$$$$$$$$$ maintain cal,alk and ph with feedings and w/c watch your nitrates and po4 if you have probs.Buy salt,corals ect don't look for miracles
 

Terra Ferma

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Fishaholic,

Isn't Jack Watley a slightly larger Discus icon than M. Weiss? Discus are slightly tricky to breed, but I was under the impression that they were being bred long before that, even if only in Asia.

His claims really are a little out there. When I first read about the "Water Mark" on RC, I wen't out and bought a magazine because I didn't believe he actaully said what the people on RC said he did. Well....

I think he does have credibility in some fields, and without talking to him personally, everything is just heresay.

I would not use his products, though.

It really sucks to see people wasting money on useless stuff.

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Terra Ferma ]</p>
 

SPC

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ReefAquariumSecrets I also subscribe to FAMA but am not familar with your work, I do know this about you however;
1. Name = Tullio Dell Aquilla
2. On the Marc Weiss Company web site he links your site.
3. On your site you link Mark Weiss companies site.
4. The books that Mark Weiss publishes always have the word secrets in the title.
Steve
 

purple_tang2001

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Tried CoralVital a while back, LFS said we use in in out tanks all the time, They say, helps to promote coraline growth. Well, About a month after use i noticed nothing, except that when i knocked the bottle over on the floor, there was my dog, lappin it up, she seemed to enjoy it quite a bit. so i guess i got some use outta it.
 
A

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Will my tanks survive if I stopped adding it probly but I will tell you my corals like the stuff and it is easier than mixing up the stuff myself so I get it from Marc.

SO we want the option of being able to "mix it up for ourselves". This would be like if Kent or Seachem were to market Kalkwasser as "Magical Wite Reef Dust" . But they don't. Instead they put the ingredients on the bottle and then tell you the benefits to buying from them instead of making it yourself (i.e increased purity and consistency.) I don't use very many of their products either but I do respect the fact they put the ingredients right on the label, they back up their claims with research and scientific explanations, and their products do what they say they do with out having to make any fancy claims or by taking advantage of the uninformed. So if you are here to do research or get the pulse of the hobbyist community, there ya go.....

This is a hobby based in science, first and foremost until we see some research or an ingredient list so someone else can do some research I don't think many opinions will change.

Glenn
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jamesw

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Hi Guys,

I'm not sure whether you are Tullio or Bob Goemans, but that doesn't really matter.

Welcome to www.reefs.org!!!

If you'll take a few minutes to read some of the other posts in this discussion board you will see that there is a tremendous amount of good information shared here.

If you want to see a bunch of garbage, just do a search on Coral Vital, GARF, or Miracle Mud. All three of those subjects will bring up endless debates that you can read until you are geriatric. But what's the point? If you don't want to get involved in debates like that...then don't.

If you REALLY want to learn more (like every great hobby leader) how about reading some of the articles or online chat transcripts in our LIBRARY at:

www.reefs.org/library

Since 1997 we have hosted literally every "Hobbyist Leader" for an online chat. The reason they volunteer to give a talk to our members is that they like and respect us and the work we do putting together and managing reefs.org at no profit to ourselves. Perhaps you would like to come by and give a talk? :)

As a friend in the hobby, I suggest you click on a few of the other discussions here and I encourage you to jump in where you think you can help.

Cheers
James Wiseman
 

bowser

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Cjdevito~

could you possibly post the address for Craig's article on vinegar? On the other one that you had, I tried all kinds of different things and I couldn't find the site......
Thank you.
 

bowfront

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I subscribe to FAMA but find few reef aquarium secretshidden between the advertisements. How about another hint.
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Thank you very much I will do that. My name as one person already figured is Tullio Dell Aquila. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jamesw:
<strong>Hi Guys,

I'm not sure whether you are Tullio or Bob Goemans, but that doesn't really matter.

Welcome to www.reefs.org!!!

If you'll take a few minutes to read some of the other posts in this discussion board you will see that there is a tremendous amount of good information shared here.

If you want to see a bunch of garbage, just do a search on Coral Vital, GARF, or Miracle Mud. All three of those subjects will bring up endless debates that you can read until you are geriatric. But what's the point? If you don't want to get involved in debates like that...then don't.

If you REALLY want to learn more (like every great hobby leader) how about reading some of the articles or online chat transcripts in our LIBRARY at:

www.reefs.org/library

Since 1997 we have hosted literally every "Hobbyist Leader" for an online chat. The reason they volunteer to give a talk to our members is that they like and respect us and the work we do putting together and managing reefs.org at no profit to ourselves. Perhaps you would like to come by and give a talk? :)

As a friend in the hobby, I suggest you click on a few of the other discussions here and I encourage you to jump in where you think you can help.

Cheers
James Wiseman</strong><hr></blockquote>
 

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