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acecool

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There is no answer to ETERNAL HATE created by different religious groups. There is always hope but terrorists don't want to understand words of hope. We cannot tolerate these f$3k in bastards to destroy our dream of a united world.

Cheese and Tangirl,
I think if you are an American, regardless of religion, and hide behind the desk when your country needs you than army does not want you BUT if you came to this country and become a US citizen but you would run back to your old country to fight against US than you are a TRAITOR. Don't call yourself an American if you care more for your old country. I despise the people who come to this country to only take from it and no gratitude for the freedom they enjoy because of this great nation.

I am an emigrant with American citizenship status and I did not come to this country just to ask what US can do for me but, what can I do for the country and right now if called upon I would join arms even against my own old country because I choose to be an American and I am a true American. Nobody forced you to come to this country so be a true American and stand tall, as we will prevail.
PS I am from Europe and I have to say that most Arabs that I meet were untrustworthy with exception of Lebanese people.

[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: acecool ]
 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by acecool:
<STRONG>
PS I am from Europe and I have to say that most Arabs that I meet were untrustworthy with exception of Lebanese people.
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I work for a Lebanese guy - he seems quite trustworthy.
 

markc

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I have watched the events over the last few days with growing horror.
I hope that those who are responsible are brought to justice.
I have been alarmed at the blinkered view expressed by some contributors concerning "THOSE COUNTRIES WHO HARBOUR TERRORISM"
As a British subject I have seen deaths over two decades as a result of the activities of the IRA a terrorist group supported both in deed and in funding for a long period by "Irish Americans",the very groups of terrorists being hunted down now where once viewed as freedom fighters when they fought the old USSR in Afganistan.
I hope that your President does wage a war against the terrorist but the first step must be a critical analysis of support for terrorism in your own back yard.
icon_confused.gif
 

murrayjim

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....but you tell me does a rock from a 10 year old warrant a bullet from a trained weapon of war?

Last week my answer would have been no, but now.... maybe? Where did this cycle of hatred and death begin, who throw the first stone, was it the Arabs or the Jews? Your argument suggests that Arabs some how have a right to hate because they've had loved ones killed. Well that same argument is one Americans can now use to "hate" Arabs. I think any culture that would celebrate the death of thousands of people is better off oppressed.

"If such terrorism is AGAINT Islam like I have previously stated how can one assume that they support such terrorists? Mercy and compassion are held as the highest virtues of Islam and those who have committed these atrocities, if they are found to be Muslim or of Arabic descent, acted outside the beliefs of the Islamic community at large."

Well I don't think you need to assume that they support this attack, just listen to what is being said in mosques throughout the middle east. Here are a few quotes; "America's terrorism is greater than any terrorism in the world", "The U.S. administration is criminal - injustice always leads to injustice.", "heavenly punishment", "The attacks in the United States are the right thing to do..." and so on, I think it is clear that they are telling us they support these attacks or maybe they're all speaking "outside the beliefs of the Islamic community".
As far as I can tell the Arab world, though condemming the attack, feels we deserved it because of our "criminal" political policies. There seems to be so much hatred for Americans that I do not believe we can ever find common ground for peace.

"American media will rarely show an “American” mistake"...........???

Do you have cable? I think the media is all over any mistake that America makes.

Cheese
I had a Lebanese Poli Sci professor in college, he too was quite trustworthy.

Link to the article that I quoted from.
 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by murrayjim:
[QB]just listen to what is being said in mosques throughout the middle east.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is really in bad taste and bad form.

Do you know what is said in a mosque?

Nothing

A mosque is a refuge to be at one with your prayers.

If you decide to come to this board and make commentary on Islam the very least you could do is READ the Koran.

This act would show you that all the examples you just gave are political and not to do with Islam. Many people have left the Middle east because of politics but have still remained a part of Islam.

In a time of need for compassion you have come to a bulletin board and written hatefull things about a religion that teaches tolerance and love, of which you have not even taken the time to educate yourself about.

You qoutd an article that you have no way of knowing if any of it is as the author says because you will not take the time to research your facts.

You came here to make a point.

I think the point you have made is not the point you intended.

Over the coarse of one weekend you can read the Koran, before giving yor expert opinion of Islam please educate yourself.
 

ynot

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By JOHN STACKHOUSE, The Globe and Mail
Saturday, September 15, 2001

I awoke before dawn on Thursday, to the sound of my infant daughter crying, and thought of Sultan, a Pakistani pilot, warrior and hate-monger. And I shuddered. He hadn't really crossed my mind in the three years since we met, but this week, with talk of jihad and terrorism and hate and pilots, I could think of few people other than Sultan, and how his twisted dream had followed me around the world.

His last message to me had made that dream clear. "Death to America," he vowed.

I met Sultan on a wickedly hot evening in rural Pakistan. It was in August, 1998, just after followers of Osama bin Laden had blown to pieces two U.S. embassies in East Africa. He introduced himself both as Sultan Atiqur Rahman and as Sultan Ahmed, and made no bones of the fact that he, a veteran of the Pakistani air force and the holy war in Afghanistan, was running a training school for Islamic militants.

He cheered bin Laden and was thrilled with the bombings. They were, he said, just the beginning.

I frantically took notes, and filed a story that ran under the headline: "They use the gun to spread the faith." But I was eager to get out.

I was tired of the hate and hypocrisy that bubbled constantly in Pakistan and India.

After seven years of living amid so much deprivation and then watching America's Golden Age unfold every night on television, I feared that I was beginning to see the roots of Sultan's anger. Then again, like a lot of people in South Asia, I also longed for the peace and tolerance that seemed to sprout freely in the West's fertile soil.

Within a year, my wife and I were back in Toronto, a place where we could raise our children with a degree of serenity. I laid my notes of the evening with Sultan to rest in the attic, where they remained until this week, when it became apparent that such a move could not guarantee a sanctuary.

Now, the hope that we could shelter our children from the likes of Sultan may be gone too.

I don't know where he is now but I met him at his Markaz-ud-Dawa-wal-Irshad, or Centre for Preaching, outside the village of Muridke on Pakistan's side of Punjab. We were about an hour's drive north of Lahore, a decadent party town where, Islamic law notwithstanding, Scotch flows freely in many homes. All my best Pakistani friends lived in Lahore, at least when they were not in London or New York.

Muridke is a different world. I was there, thanks to a helpful journalist in Lahore, with Suzanne Goldenberg, a Winnipegger who writes for London's Guardian newspaper. We already knew something of the place, that it trained hundreds of young men every year to take up jihad, or holy war.

It was also the spiritual headquarters of Lashkar-e-Taiba, "Army of the Righteous," a very mean militant group that ran its real training camps - the finishing schools for fanatics - in the Hindu Kush mountains of northern Pakistan and Afghanistan. Sultan's group trained boys to fight mainly in Indian Kashmir, but also Sudan and Afghanistan. It also had close ties with the groups and madrassas in northwestern Pakistan where the Taliban first emerged.

Here, not far from the Indian border, the "Righteous Soldiers" enjoyed a 200-acre estate, carved from some of crowded Punjab's best farmland. And on it they had built the school, six mosques, a hospital, a playground and a shopping centre. The room where we sat was well air-conditioned.

Every autumn, the campus put on a religious festival that draws tens of thousands of people who also can watch demonstrations of commando manoeuvres, examine the newest weapons from abroad and listen as weeping parents eulogize their sons killed in battle.

The cost of the buildings, we were told, had been underwritten by anonymous "donors" in the Middle East. The land had been donated in the 1980s by Pakistan's military government, the one propped up so actively by the Reagan administration. The annual operating budget came from generous Pakistanis around the world and from Inter-Services Intelligence, the country's spy agency.

People commonly referred to the school as "Koran and Kalashnikovs" and, as we entered, we could see why. We had an armed escort and, before reaching the teachers residence, we passed graffiti in Arabic that read: "Democracy leads to secularism" and "Jihad leads to dominance of Islam."

Sultan was there to welcome us, and to introduce Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, the movement's spiritual leader. They greeted me with a Muslim hug of brotherhood. They told Suzanne she would have to cover herself with more than a headscarf. Two teenaged boys arrived with a more appropriate cover - a bed sheet. "Your feet!" Sultan exclaimed, noticing the last exposed part of her body. She covered them, too.

The boys left and returned with a tray bearing bottles of warm Pepsi, which the professors of fanaticism opened and shared with us. They said they had allowed us this rare visit on one condition: We had to swear we were not American.

Sultan hated the place. "We will go to America with the gun," he warned as we sipped our Pepsi.

He described bin Laden not as a man but an "institution," and he claimed that in the 1980s, he left the Pakistani air force to fight in Afghanistan with the infamous Saudi millionaire turned jihad warrior. Americans had trained them in the weaponry they used to repel the Russians, he said, but now he hated them as well as the old Communists. (Pepsi, he explained, wasn't American - it was made in Pakistan.)

Sultan also said he planned to go to the United States. Rereading my notes this week, I was forced to pause. "First, we will ask them [Americans] to take up Islam," he said. "If they don't, then we will use the gun."

I guess I should have asked him whether he planned to use his piloting skills as well; after all, we discussed the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center and Sultan was eager to say how much he despised New York and all its opulence. It was, he said, a city run by Jews.

"The Jews are the real terrorists," added Saeed, his superior. I glanced at Suzanne, under her bed sheet, and wondered whether they had any inkling she's Jewish.

But sitting on the floor of a school in rural Punjab, Manhattan's renaissance just seemed so far away that it wasn't worth probing. This gang had far better targets close by, I thought. Hindus in India, Shia Muslims down the road, the Scotch-swillers in Lahore.

After Sultan's vitriol against Jews, Saeed made a point of saying how terrorism was, in his mind, a very bad word. Terrorism involves the killing of innocent people, while jihad is about helping the poor and oppressed - although sometimes those who get in the way have to be killed.


•••

Those were crazy times in Pakistan. The United States had just rained missiles on Afghanistan, and a few had fallen short, crashing on Pakistani soil.

I had been to a mosque in Peshawar, on the Afghan border, where a cleric said, with a bit of prescience it seems: "From this day on, a new war will start against the United States and against Americans."

In Islamabad, the capital, a leading cleric told 800 worshippers that "you can go out and kill Americans."

The complaint against the United States stemmed from more than a few misdirected missiles. For the better part of the 1990s, Washington had imposed economic sanctions to prompt Pakistan into following a Western agenda - yes to democracy, yes to human rights, no to drugs. At the same time, the West also was playing pussyfoot with a succession of Pakistani governments, giving aid, then taking it away, inviting the prime minister to the White House, then refusing a good photo op.

I still believe that most Pakistanis want a secular government with liberal leanings, although democracy is not a popular topic at the dinner table for people who live in little huts and herd goats for a living. Many of them would just like a day off.

Sultan and Saeed felt that their school was what those young goat herders, and the country, needed. According to the short, beefy Saeed, himself an engineer, a new Islamic state must be technologically sophisticated so that it can provide jobs and decent living standards to its people. His students learned computer science and engineering, and 55 affiliate schools scattered around the countryside produced an annual crop of teenagers for higher education. It had a Web site (markazdawa.org).

Of course, democracy was heretical and also had to go, Saeed said. That was part of their jihad. "In Islam, God is the ruler. But in democracy, the right is given to all people. In democracy, the right to rule is transferred to the common people."

For the next hour or so, we tried to gain some understanding of these men who held such sway over their acolytes - enough to send them to their deaths. They were articulate, thoughtful and genuinely concerned, it seemed, for the plight of the many poor Pakistanis who lived around them.

It was hard not to agree with their desire to overthrow the corrupt government in Islamabad, and do something about the whisky-lovers of Lahore, where many are millionaires but few pay their taxes. It was hard not to admire the genuinely good schools and health clinics they ran.

But they kept coming back, unprompted, to the United States and the Jews, whom Sultan described, menacingly, almost as an ancient plague. Once India was defeated, he promised, "the Jews" would be his army's target.

When it was time to leave, Saeed presented me with hardcover copies of the Noble Qur'an and The Sealed Nectar, Biography of the Noble Prophet. They had been imported from Saudi Arabia. He told me to read the books if I wanted to understand jihad, which, he reminded me yet again, was not to be equated with terrorism. We embraced, and then I left.

Pakistan had been under pressure to shut down the Muridke campus, which had opened in 1989.

The U.S. State Department placed the organization, and Saeed, on its list of terrorists. But with so many other battles to fight in Pakistan - drugs, corruption, dictatorship and, before those, the Soviets - little hate factories in the countryside didn't seem worthy of a diplomatic offensive. And so they grew. Rather than censuring the place, senior government officials beat a path to its door.

My Pakistani friends already felt defeated by the movement. I. A. Rehman, a former journalist and human-rights activist, and one of the finest people I know, said the fight against the Russians, and now the rise of fundamentalists with guns, had made people like Sultan feel invincible.

Perhaps he was right. Back then, as now, the threat was not just the bomb-throwers or the suicide pilots, or some perceived maniac named bin Laden. The threat lay in the hate spewed by people like Sultan, a hate you can hear spoken just as clearly these days in parts of the United States.

This week, there seemed to be nothing to contain the passion for vengeance I encountered that night at Muridke. The month, the year, the continent had changed. But the sentiment remained the same, as the vitriol once again poured out of a notebook I thought I had put away for good.
 

faztaz

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murrayjim

Please get your facts straight. A Mosque is a place of worship and prayer. Worship to Allah and prayer for those around the world that are suffering including Americans. The Mosques which I have been to this past week, some of which are predominantly Arab, are condemning the bombings and praying for these lost souls which are either missing amidst the rubble or have already been found dead. We pray just like we pray for our brothers in Palestine, Kashmir, Bosnia, Africa, Afghanistan, etc, that justice is brought to those who committed these acts snd that no more innocent lives are taken.

I find your post of poor taste. If instead of posting the first piece of propaganda you hear I suggest that you actually turn to several other sources of news and discover for yourself that Mosques and Islamic institutions around the world condemn this heinous act and call upon the media to act responsibly. Why did several Mosques in my own state release doves, put up American flags and ditribute, help to organize blood drives and other charitable events, if as your saying they are supporting the bombing??

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: fmx2md ]
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murrayjim

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Fishaholic and fmx2md,
I'm sorry that you found my posts in bad taste, but just because you disagree with me does not make them hateful. I posted a link to an article that claims that the quotes I posted are true and factual. I have no reason to beleive other wise. If you have some information that would support your claims that these quotes are untrue please post it. Rather then call me hateful prove the article wrong. You asked a question and I answered it, sorry you didn't like the answer. I don't know what to tell you. I don't think the tone or the content of my post was hateful at all towards Islam or anyone else for that matter. I directed my statements towards those that "celebrate the deaths of Americans". I certainly did not want to offend anyone and hope you are not defending those dancing in the streets over this attack. What I find offensive is people calling me hateful because they disagree with my post. To say all those that hate America and celebrate the death of Americans are not true Islams would be a nice way for the Islam people to wash their hands of this terrible attack. However I have not seen one middle eastern Islam denounce the attack without the "but the US had it coming..." on the end, with the exception of Arafat. I honestly do not hate anyone but I have no idea how to deal with people who so obiviously hate me so much they are willing to die just to kill me in the name of allah.
 
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MurryJim

Even your second post speaks of hate and misinformation.

Islam People?

Do you even know what the word Islam means???

You have not heard of and Islamic country say they denounce the act without the "America had it coming". You see this is your hatred and misinformation, go to msnbc and read what the "world leaders react". Most of the America had it coming qoutes are being generated right here by Americans, of which I do not agree with at all.

I do not disagree with you because you are soo badly misinformed and soo lacking with any knowledge of the Muslim community worldwide, there is nothing worth disagreeing with. Islam is the worlds largest religion by a very large margin. Now look at how many divisions thre are in Christianity ( I am only assuming you have some knowledge of this religion ), How would you suppose a religion as large as Islam, practiced by so many people of different cultures ( Remind that that the Arab population is just a small number fo Muslims ) would have the same thoughts.

Now do you see how misinformed a blanket statement like Islam people is.

I gave you the ultimate source The Koran, it is in every libary in our country if you want to seem even the slightest bit informed, I would again suggest reading it before qouting articles that you have no idea about the content of. I do not know how to make it any easier than that.

What you are saying is hatred not born out of an understanding but as most hate is born out of ignorance. You have all the abilities to inform yourself before you speak but you chose not to.

If you truly expect anyone to beleive you have not heard people throughout the world who are Muslims express greif and sorrow with absolutely no reference to America had it coming, you either have been living under a rock or your heart is full of hatred.

I have read this post and have felt a sense of calm from people from very different backgrounds abou a very horrific tragic thing that happened. These posts from people who would like to spread misinformation and fear and hatred of my Muslim brothers, it pains me to read them and to feel that people would not want me and others in my own country that I defended with my life.

I would like to thank those who have posted with respect and love and grief.

I have said enough and would like to leave ths post without answering hatred with anything that may seem as hate.

Al-Fatihah (Seven of the Oft Repeated)

1 Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds
2 The Beneficent, the Merciful
3 Owner of the Day of Judgement
4 Thee we worship; Thee we ask for help
5 Show us the straight path
6 The path of those whom you hast favoured;
7 Not of those who earn Thine anger nor those who go astray.

This is how all Muslims open their prayers and this is what the Koran is about, Humility, forgiveness and tolerence.

Here are what a few words mean

Islam = Submission
Muslim = Slave, to resign one self to God
Koran = Recite, means to read and speak.

I leave you with how we greet each other and part ways.

Salaama lakem = May god be with you.

I hope we all heal from this
 

murrayjim

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Fish
Again you accuse me of being hateful, please explain what I said that could be interpreted as hateful. I have no idea how you can say I am spreading misinformation when I posted a link to the article that I quoted from. Are you saying the article is completely false? Let others read the article and decide for themselves. It was a US News article and doubt they made it up. I feel badly that I can't answer a question and give my opinion without being attacked on a personal level.
I hope that your tolerance level is not an example of that of the Islam faith. If it is then we are all in trouble.

fmx2md
Thanks for your reply. Which one of my statements is it that you found to be misinformed and offensive?
I will take some time out this week to read the Koran, anyone know where I can get a copy on the net, and will be happy to post what I find.
 
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MurryJim

You said you had noy heard of one Islam country not state their grief without "America had it coming"

I clearly put this in my post.

Do you really think with all the news coverage this is at all an acurate statement.

I am not concerned with how you view me. As for if my tolerence of what you write in your posts is examplifing Islam. I would say if you take any one person to be an example of any religion, what does that say about you? Oh I get it, it was an insult.

Peace be with you
 

FISHMAN1

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I worked at 101 Barclay street.(the building is no longer usable) I was 2 blocks from the trade centers. I saw the people leaping from windows,(alot more than you have seen on any news report)I heard the screaming and useless carnage. I lost over 6 friends.I would have no problem using nuclear weapons to clear Afganistan and any other country that will harbor and protect terrorists. If you were not at ground zero on Tuesday and did not have your like changed forever, it is really very easy to sprout everlasting love. I am a middle aged guy who saw the horrors of vietnam, but never experienced anything like Tuesday. I say give an untimatum to the Afganistan, either give up the bastards or we will use nuclear weapons in 48 hours. This has nothing to do with color,race or religion. It has to do with dealing with murderers.

Andy
 

murrayjim

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Fish,
I stand by my statement that "I" have not heard any middle eastern muslim denounce the attack without the "US deserved it.." clause added. I still haven't, with the exception of Arafat, who I thought seemed very shaken by the attack. And the tolerance remark was no less an insult then you calling me hateful. I hear you talking of Islam as a peaceful, tolerant religion in the same breath that you call me hateful. At least try and be civil, even if you disagree with me. fmx2md says he found no hate in my post, why are you looking so hard for it.
Are you saying that people are not examples of the religions they practice???
 

faztaz

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Murrayjim there is nothing in particular I find to be offensive but rather the general assumptions you make about Islam, Muslims, and Arabs. Take for example, “I think any culture that would celebrate the death of thousands of people is better off oppressed.â€
 

Mike02

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
While I do understand your anger and pain, killing off an entire people is not only a naïve suggestion, but un-American, and most importantly inhumane.


What happened to the American Indian? How many Cheyanne, Apache or Sioux are left? Is it their culture for them to live on a few sq acres of desert?
Now, can we all quit this discussion.


[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: Mike02 ]
 

cubera

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I do not support violence against anyone during times of peace. For those of you from faiths akin to the spineless grotesque heathens who hurt my people (Muslims included), I can only advise you to be smart. Do not draw attention to yourselves and respect the traditions and customs of the majority of Americans. Please do not engage in debates about how you are not appreciated or accepted when you go out of your way to alienate yourselves. America's tolerance has worn thin and rightfully so. You should be an American first as this is the country that provides your freedoms of speach, assembly, and religion. Millions of Americans died in combat to secure these liberties so don't throw that **** in my face or I will become extremely angry (as will millions of other Americans). Any individual who places thier religious convictions above National priorities is asking for trouble during these troubled times. Please refrain from "self" and get with the program. Fly Old Glory very high and gives thanks to whatever version of our Heavenly Father you like that you live in the greatest society in the history of civilization (a work in progress). Be prepared to defend her. Be prepared to lay down your life to save another as this kind of sacrifice is pleasing to God. I am qualified to speak on this subject as I am a veteran of two wars. I have been personally victimized by terrorists attacks. I lost friends and loved ones in this most recent cowardly assualt on all of humanity as well as previous experiences in the Middle East. I've lived all over the world. I love people, ESPECIALLY Americans. What defines a person in America is willingness to be an American. This should not be a PASSIVE experience. Stop whining and get with it or get left behind. The choice is yours. This entire experience will strengthen our nation and provide greater peace and security for us all if we do it right. Doing it right means we take care of each other. Put your religious and ethnic baggage away and join our campaign. America is a country where first generation immigrants can go to school and become doctors and lawyers or whatever they desire and then turn around and complain about how they have been mistreated. Don't absorb the benefits and turn around and bite the hand that fed you. I am also a first generation American. I have lived the dream of my father and grandfather. May God bless you all and may you all get your heads out of your asses.
 

faztaz

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Cubera I agree with you on some points. Our main focus should be to help our fallen in any way we can. At the same time I disagree with you in assuming that these statements are about self. Maybe it is you who should figure out what it means to be "American." When someone from foreign land strikes you a blow your first reaction is to strike back, and rightfully so. What many of us have forgotten is that these terrorists are a minority from a distant land. Instead Americans choose to attack their own on domestic soil. This my friend, in my eyes is worse than the attack on the US. When an American attacks a fellow American because of his race, religion, or color this in itself is an act of terrorism. It is not only un-American and shameful but it is the very thing that these foreign terrorists want to propagate. We must take care of out international problems but more importantly we must first take care of our domestic problems from within. For if we are not united from within how can we join each other to exterminate the idiots who dare to hurt us from abroad. As the saying goes, United we stand, divided we fall!

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: fmx2md ]
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davelin315

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Because it's something that should be put before all else. While I still visit this BB a lot, my first concern is what is happening. Our reefs can be an escape, but now's not the time to escape.

Here's some quotes to think about as we approach war, and I think they encompass a lot of people's opinions as expressed here. All but one are from possibly our greatest statesman ever, Abraham Lincoln.

"At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."

"I know not how to aid you, save in the assurance of one of mature age, and much severe experience, that you can not fail, if you resolutely determine, that you will not."

"Neither let us be slandered from our duty by false accusations against us, nor frightened from it by menaces of destruction to the Government nor of dungeons to ourselves. LET US HAVE FAITH THAT RIGHT MAKES MIGHT, AND IN THAT FAITH, LET US, TO THE END, DARE TO DO OUR DUTY AS WE UNDERSTAND IT."

"We have, as all will agree, a free Government, where every man has a right to be equal with every other man. In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed."

"In this sad world of ours, sorrow comes to all; and, to the young, it comes with bitterest agony, because it takes them unawares."

"It is not merely for to-day, but for all time to come that we should perpetuate for our children's children this great and free government, which we have enjoyed all our lives."

"There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one. There is involved in this struggle the question whether your children and my children shall enjoy the privileges we have enjoyed."

"United we stand, divided we fall."
-John Dickinson
 

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