Is aquiring frags just to make us feel better?

[gregmookelly]

I agree that there is debate on the issue but the points were clearly stated on why captive raised is better for the reefs. The debate seems trivial. I am the person mentioned who does not have my tank completly set up but will only use captive raised or frags. I realize that keeping a reef is somewhat selfish but I love keeping fish and I am willing to be selfish to start one. I will also try my best to be as responsible as possible with my efforts to stock the tank. If I ever feel that my efforts are still hurting the environment then I might just have to find another hobby.
I do and will feel good about my efforts to take nothing directly from the ocean. Hopefully, my efforts will turn out postive as I would like to start a website showing the equal beauty of a reef tank containing nothing from the ocean.

p.s. Some reefers who commented seem to feel guilty about their actions and feel the need to diminish the efforts of those that really care. Just a thought.

 

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I realize that keeping a reef is somewhat selfish but I love keeping fish and I am willing to be selfish to start one.

My point exactly.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> If I ever feel that my efforts are still hurting the environment then I might just have to find another hobby.
<hr></blockquote>

By purchasing goods from retailers who sell wild caught corals/fish you will be supporting and even funding an organization that is in part responsible for damaging the reefs worldwide.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> p.s. Some reefers who commented seem to feel guilty about their actions and feel the need to diminish the efforts of those that really care. Just a thought.
<hr></blockquote>

I hope you don't mean me or others that have commented on those taking the "moral high ground" because if so, you have missed the point. I don't feel guilty about my tank or the wild collected specimines in it. I simply resent any implications that I am less moral than someone with a tank full of captively raised specimens.

I will buy captive raised corals more than wild caught mostly because I feel that the survival rate is higher. I will not keep certain species (like goniopora) because I don't want to throw away money on something that won't live more than a year (or much less). I will try to minimize my contribution to damaging the reef whenever possible, but if there is a hearty species that is only wild collected, (tangs for example) and I feel it fits well in my tank's stocking plan (read- if I want it and it makes sense) then I will buy it, and I will not feel guilty about it, in spite of how anyone else feels on this board.

Ernie

[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: esmithiii ]</p>

 

[VkeSu]

Esmithii....do you dive? Have you ever been to a reef that is dead..it is sad. I am fairly new (4 years, learned many things from uneducated lfs) but I do get captive when available. Hopefully if more people do this, the reefs can become beautiful once again. I admire people with the thought they can "save the world" by purchasing captive breed stuff! You know what...they just might! It has to start somewhere. IMO..if taking one wild will supply hundreds of offspring (frags) possibly by the time my kids are grown, wild caught will be not so necessary. Maybe I've missed the point in your mind, but to say "who cares" or "let's just take what we want" is not the way to help the reefs. One step at a time....not everyone collects by cyanide anymore do they? My 2 cents.

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I do and will feel good about my efforts to take nothing directly from the ocean. Hopefully, my efforts will turn out postive as I would like to start a website showing the equal beauty of a reef tank containing nothing from the ocean.

I think the point being raised by the thread is that you possibly might not know whether the "frag" you got was from a "tank raised" specimen or a wild caught speciman that was hacked up to increase profits. If that is the case then your tank will contain "stuff from the ocean."

Glenn

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gregmookelly:
<strong>p.s. Some reefers who commented seem to feel guilty about their actions and feel the need to diminish the efforts of those that really care. Just a thought.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, I don't see that. They are just pointing out the fallacy of the self-righteousness that often pervades the threads on this board. Check any thread that concerns conservation issues and you will see posts dripping with hypocrisy as these folks pound the podium and ooze outrage then 5 minutes later, in another thread, post with pride about the growth rates in their tank and how beautiful their tang is.

I think Bill was just pointing out how silly the melodrama can be.

[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: MickAv8r ]</p>

 

[naesco]

Interesting that the anti conservation comments come from people in the industry who have a vested interest to rape the reefs.
If we all trade frags they are out of business.
Cheers for the people in the industry who also take up conservation.
We should support them 100%

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by naesco:
<strong>Interesting that the anti conservation comments come from people in the industry who have a vested interest to rape the reefs.</strong><hr></blockquote>

thanks you made my point perfectly

[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: MickAv8r ]</p>

 

[Shamrock317]

I doubt they will be out of business if we all trade grags. Unless of course we also trade tanks, skimmers, lights, etc;.

 

[Ben 4]

Life is full of hypocrisy. From the food we eat to the entertainment we pursue, we are a walking, talking contradiction. As long as we do our best to be responsible and minimize any negative impact our enjoyment of our hobby, be it reefkeeping, fishing, hunting, hanging out in bars chowing chicken wings.. etc. may create, we certainly have every right to partake in that hobby without feeling guilty.

 

[esmithiii]

VkeSu:

I am trying to get certified, but have snorkeled in the keys, and am aware of the issues. My point is not that we should not buy captive propogated frags, but more that feeling a sense of guilt about buying a wild collected specimen is somewhat hypocritical.

I try to be responsible in what I buy, and in my husbandry techniques. The issue is a complicated one with few easy answers. Keep in mind that collection of some species impacts the reef much less than others. In Borenman's book Aquarium Corals: Selection, Husbandry, and Natural History, he outlines collection impact for each individual species. I think it is a good starting point for understanding the impact that collection has on the reefs.

Naesco:

MickAv8r has provided invaluable information to many reefkeepers (including myself) which undoubtedly has saved many corals, which means less corals taken from the wild. I think your comments were out of line. I don't "have a vested interest to rape the reefs" but I too think that most posts on conservation are laden with hypocrisy. And Naesco, in your case I think the shoe fits.

Ernie

 

[esmithiii]

Ben:

For me, life is not "full of hypocrisy". My vision is clear on these issues, and I stand by my beliefs. I believe that all things here on earth were placed for our (human's) benefit, not to be wasted or undervalued but to be used in a responsible manner. I do not feel guilt when I eat a hamburger, nor when I kill and clean a chicken, pig or steer (I grew up on a farm) nor when I pull the trigger and a kill a pheasant or rabbit. I don't feel bad when I use medicines that were tested on animals to ensure that they are safe for me and my family.

I feel bad when I loose a fish due to my own ignorance, when someone shot my poor cat August, when the two cats I got at the local shelter came down with some disease they contracted there and died. I hate to see the forests cut down, but its not me that has to clear the land so my family can eat.

Understand that for me it is hard to take some people seriously that pound their fists on the podium of environmentalism in one post and then
in another ask if marshall island liverock is really that much better than fiji.
E

 

[SPC]

I think the point of aquacultured rock is to allow the wild area to be wild. I would liken this somewhat to farm land that borders a state wildlife area.
Steve

 

[esmithiii]

The "moral high ground" thing bothers me too, but hey, that's life. I have tried to point out the blatent hypocracy of anyone taking the "moral high ground" in this hobby, but no one wants to feel guilty about being a part of a hobby that does do harm to the ocean's reefs.

As for fragging, I think it is great. If my tank were all captive raised species, LR and LS, then I am sure some people on this board would probably like me more, but I wouldn't put it in my sig, or mention it much because in my opinion it is not that much better than having a 100% collected tank.

I mean, if I take a wolf and put him in a 6'x2' pen does it really matter if he was bred in captivity or taken from the wild?

Flame away, tree-huggers

E

 

[gregmookelly]

esmithii, first off I am sorry to hear about your cats. I would die if I lost my "children". I do have to disagree with you that animals were put here for humans. I am not a christian(I have read your comments on your religion) and believe all living creatures have equal rights on the earth. Example: I understand the food chain but also realize that I can have a very healthy lifestyle as a vegetarian(vegans live longer). Why would I want to take a animal from the reef when I can buy or trade a frag from a friend or member of my reef club? Do the math, it will make a difference. I am not perfect so I do not make issue with other people's choices unless it is thrown at me. i.e. this thread

 

[SPC]

I agree with Horge on this, I don't see any point of contention

.
Steve

 

[esmithiii]

Greg:

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. This is not the forum for debates on philosophy/theology, etc, but I will say that my belief system is quite different from yours, and that it governs my life.

Cheers.

E

 

[Anonymous]

I like ya Ernie!

 

[VkeSu]

Go...Horge...but, also I can also say if rules are followed and the hunting is done to feed a family and not just the sport of watching it die..we also use hunting as a means of over population. I don't believe the reefs have the problem of over population.

 

[kevreh]

Call me igonorant BUT....

- Do we really know how much of an impact the hobby has had on reefs around the world?
- And how does this compare to other things that might be harvested for other purposes that have nothing to do with our hobby? Or other industries that may impact the reefs.
- And *if* the collection of corals is done right can't the hobby sustain itself guilt free with minimal impact? "Done right" would mean collecting corals from an area without wiping it out, moving on to another area, then coming back to the first area when it's grown back. This would be comparable to the lumber industry that both plants trees and cuts them down. It also means not using cyanide...

I enjoy this hobby and also want to make sure that I'm not supporting the wiping-out of reefs. But I have yet to see conclusive analysis that says the hobby has impacted the world's reefs. When someone says "and I saw a dead reef..." I don't assume its from the hobby when it could be from polution or even (natural) environmental situations. I'll buy captive breed, but would also like to see more balanced impact analysis.


Kevin

 

[naesco]

esmithiii

Of course everyone contibutes and learns from eachother although we may not always agree we always learn.

For example, I have read your posts over time and every day, in every way, you are posting more and more like a conservationist.