Is aquiring frags just to make us feel better?

[BerlinMethod.com]

I think everyone will agree that:

Buying/trading frags that have come from frags that have come from frags is great. Benefits include not taking from the reefs for each frag traded and receiving hardy, proven specimens.

AND

Buying frags that have come from chopped colonies is bad. This just puts money into the undeserved pockets of retailers.

So..... if it can be proven that chopping is going on by a particular retailer, why not reveal that info to prospective buyers? This board is a great medium for that.

I for one have bought/traded frags with just about all of the well known propagators, i.e. Greg Hiller, Dr Mac, Joe Kelley, Todd Hillson, Blane Perun, LeRoy Headlee, Tapio Haparanta, Tracy Gray, Ron Coleman, and many more and it does come down to buyer beware. If you know who you are dealing with, and research it, you are sure to get the real thing!

Also, in Bill's original statement, I believe he questioned the point that frags from frags from frags are also bad because it causes real propagators to hunt down rare corals. I think this can easily be dismissed because for 100 frags that are sold only 1 colony was taken from th wild, whereas 100 colonies would have been taken to deliver that same species/strain to the consumers.

[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: BerlinMethod.com ]

[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: BerlinMethod.com ]</p>

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bill2:
<strong>ok once again this is not a debate on the validity of fragging.....

It's a debate on the moral high ground some take when they state they have a captive grown tank

Bill</strong><hr></blockquote>

I beleive that if someone goes to the trouble to acquire captive grown corals and tank raised fish and aquacultered live rock they deserve to brag about the conservation they have helped to do.

I understand that this peeves those people who have tanks filled with fiji rock and have with their dollars helped destroy reefs that this rock is collected from. I have heard many times that live rock is replenished all the time in the ocean and this is just a load of hogwash. If you took it out it is no longer there. If you mined it and put in the ocean and went back and got it, then you have contributed zero impact on reefs.

Trying to belittle people who give great amounts of their time and money to do conservation work is, well just SWELL, and really mature!!

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]</p>

 

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> I beleive that if someone goes to the trouble to acquire captive grown corals and tank raised fish and aquacultered live rock they deserve to brag about the conservation they have helped to do.

I understand that this peeves those people who have tanks filled with fiji rock and have with their dollars helped destroy reefs that this rock is collected from.
<hr></blockquote>

No one in this hobby has any right to brag about being any kind of conservationist. It peeves us not because of feelings of remorse, but mainly due to the hypocrisy of it all, and also because this board is about learning more about reefing, not about listening to self-proclaimed conservationists that that are so puffed up in self-importance that they have to brag to everyone about what a great job they are doing protecting the reef! and Fishaholic- if the shoe fits...

E

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: esmithiii ]</p>

 

[Mike106]

At what point is a frag considered captive raised? A wild colony comes in and is fraged, I think most would agree that this is not captive raised. But, is second generation considered captive? I'm willing to bet most large companies that are advertising/selling captive raised corals are just original frags.

I think captive raised corals will benefit mainly in time. At some point there will be bans on collection and then we will only have what we can grow. Also, with technological advancements we will be able to grow them much better and will not need to take wild caught specimens because it will be more economical just to get captive raised.

later

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

If you took it out it is no longer there.

If I'm not mistaken, live rock is dead reef. SPS corals are "reef building" corals. The SPS grows, storms come along, blow everything around, corals grow on top of other corals and calcium carbonate is formed. So I don't understand how it is not replenishable. It is replacing itself every day through calcium deposits laid doown by the reef.

Glenn

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by esmithiii:
<strong>

No one in this hobby has any right to brag about being any kind of conservationist. It peeves us not because of feelings of remorse, but mainly due to the hypocrisy of it all, and also because this board is about learning more about reefing, not about listening to self-proclaimed conservationists that that are so puffed up in self-importance that they have to brag to everyone about what a great job they are doing protecting the reef! and Fishaholic- if the shoe fits...

E

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: esmithiii ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

If your not part of a solution, your just part of the problem, I think we know what part you fit into Ernie.

 

[JimMurray]

esmithiii, ..if the shoe fits...OUCH.... but I agree.

 

[dmm32]

Hi,

Well, I wont get into the debate, but I will say it makes me happy that 3 friend have reef tanks, that all the frags in their tanks came from colonies that I have had for years. That means that 3 people didnt take from the Reef.


So, IMO I thinks frags are great!

David

 

[MandarinFish]

BARE is great, I went to a meeting and saw tons of coral passed around that will fill tanks and place less demand on nature.

Justin Phillips is extremely cool and is setting up his whole (large) garage to farm out of. His setup is extensive. Very, very nice guy and has mentored me.

Bill - it is very important to breed captively and trade frags. YES, it adds up. Should anyone be a royal deeck to you about it? Probably not (engaging you in friendly dialogue will do far more good). But captive trading is absolutely critical. SO many animals can be saved for the ocean where they belong if less wild demand is there.

Just have a conscience about it.

I think you have a good thread, even though I am a strong proponent of frag and captive bred trading.

I know I feel guilty enough taking on a V-Tail Grouper and a Powder Blue Tang that someone else bought as I am buying his whole system.

The fish can't be returned to the ocean. I don't think they would be healthier being traded/sold again to someone else. They probably don't like being uprooted.

So much for my entirely captive-bred plan. I'll do my best from here on out though.

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: MandarinFish ]</p>

 

[esmithiii]

I freely admit that I am "part of the problem." You are too. All "hobbysts" are "part of the problem" whether you have taken one living thing out of the ocean or you have taken 100.

Each hobbyist takes living things that in nature have miles of reef to in which to swim/live and puts them in a 6'x'2'x2' clear box. Hobbyists buy supplies and equipment from importers, or retailers that buy from importers. We put up websites and post to discussion boards that thousands of potential-hobbyists see. We even encourage new hobbyists, many of whom will kill several fish and a few corals along the way, not to mention the 1.5 lbs/gallon of liverock that they will buy, the live sand, cleanup crew etc.

My point is simply this:

1. How many people truly have tanks where absolutely nothing was taken from the ocean?
2. How many hobbyists keep tanks for purely scientific research?
3. How many hobbyists research where they buy their equipment and supplies to only support ethical, environmentally contientious businesses?
4. How many newbies feel uncomfortable because of self-righteous comments from a fellow reefer that has a few aquaculturesd frags? How many leave the board and the advice they get here only to go on killing their livestock?

Simply put, I think a little humility is in order for us all. I don't mind about hearing about availability or good deals on aquacultured corals, fish, inverts, etc. I want to hear about it. I think frag swapping sessions are a great thing. Just don't give me a hard time about the wild collected corals and fish in my tank, not to mention the liverock! Don't brag to me about how reef-contious you are just cause you have some captively raised specimines in your tank.

Just so you know, all my fish were wild caught, except for a hippo tang who was "tank reared," but not tank bred. Most my coral was captively propagated, except for a couple zooanthid colonies, a euphylia paradivisa and a favites species. My livesand is southdown. My liverock was collected in the ocean. Do I feel bad about it? No. Do I buy aquacultured if available? Usually. Do I avoid difficult to keep species? Absolutely. Am I still part of the "problem"? Probably.

E

 

[JimMurray]

Let's face it the reefs would be in much better shape if this hobby did not exsist. I think what Fishaholic is trying to say is that a captive bred tank is the lesser of two evils, and I would agree with that. However, I think if you participate in this hobby you have to accept responsibility for the impact it, the hobby as a whole, has on the reefs.
Fishaholic, when you're self-righteous and make rude comments it does not help your cause. Rather than call people names that disagree with you and make grandious exits, i.e."Good Bye, I can no longer be a member of Reefs.org", I would like to see some constructive dialogue from you.

 

[Carpentersreef]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JimMurray:
<strong>Let's face it the reefs would be in much better shape if this hobby did not exsist.</strong><hr></blockquote>

WHOA!

I COULD NOT DISAGREE MORE!!!

If I was not in this hobby, I would have NO idea what an anemone was, or what most corals were, or how fragile a clam is!
I now have a HUGE appreciation for our oceans,more so than I could have gotten through reading only. I am now a member of the World Wildlife Federation, and commit more and more to their cause, in a large part through what I have learned through reef keeping.
I have a stronger commitment to learn about environmental policies that our government puts forth, I now commit to membership to the Vancouver aquarium, and the research that they do, GARF included. Any information I can find about the reefs around the world, I can, in one way or another, apply to the aquarium I have in my home.
Reefkeeping is an ongoing education, and I think the reefs will benefit in the long run.

Mitch

 

[SPC]

Ernie, you Steve Nichols and Murray Jim (my old She Goat friend) have already made it quite clear that you believe "all of creation is under the domain of man". This being the case, I don't see where it would make any difference to you where the animals come from, am I right in this assumption?

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

made it quite clear that you believe "all of creation is under the domain of man". This being the case, I don't see where it would make any difference to you where the animals come from, am I right in this assumption?

It does make a difference because while all creation may be under the "domain of man", man is ultimatly responsible as a steward of creation. So while all creation is there for our use, we are also responsible for it's protection.

Glenn

 

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Ernie, you Steve Nichols and Murray Jim (my old She Goat friend) have already made it quite clear that you believe "all of creation is under the domain of man". This being the case, I don't see where it would make any difference to you where the animals come from, am I right in this assumption?

I think you mean dominion but I get your point. Rover put it well. I would put it a different way: Everyrhing on this planet is for our use, but not abuse.

I prefer aquacultured because it is generally heartier than wild caught, and also because it impacts the reef less. I want to keep species that I will be successful with. I don't boast about the aquacultured/captive propagated species in my tank. Nor do I boast about the wild caught items in my tank.

Ernie

Ernie

 

[SPC]

Thanks Ernie, dominion would be correct.

So you and Glen would agree that keeping a Tang in a 29 gallon tank would be abuse? The problem I am having understanding this position is what is considered abuse? Is it ok to subject animals to cruel experiments to try and benefit man?
I think this would be a good discussion for the sump.

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

So Glen would agree that keeping a Tang in a 29 gallon tank would be abuse?

Yes.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

The problem I am having understanding this position is what is considered abuse?

It is our reponsibility to care for the environment to the best of our ability. As long as the positives outweigh the negatives I wouldn't consider it abuse.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> Is it ok to subject animals to cruel experiments to try and benefit man?
<hr></blockquote>

That is a much fuzzier answer. To cure cancer? Probably. To make a better cosmetic? Probably not.

 

[myreef]

I like frags for several reasons, but first and foremost I just love watching a frag grow into a full sized piece of coral. It makes me feel good. Does it make me feel good for saving a wild caught head? Somewhat, but I just get a great deal of satisfaction in watching something small grow into something more beautiful. Also knowing I am helping makes me feel like I am doing a small part in helping. Until everyone has captive raised live rock, live sand, and fish then we will cannot have a 100% captice raised tank.

The Atlanta Reef Club is trying to build a database for captive bred corals. We want to be able to keep track of coral growth and who has frags and who has the mother colony. Eventually we want to incorporate this into a joint effort with other reef clubs. I am talking to Justin Phillips from the Bay Area Reef Enthusiasts (BARE) about doing this now. We both feel this could be a tremendous opportunity to help captive bred corals and to almost have a lineage of where a certain coral has come from. It is only as good as the database and the information we receive. If any other clubs are interested let me know or if you already have a database, please contact me.

Great thread Bill!

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: myreef ]

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: myreef ]</p>

 

[JimMurray]

Carpentersreef
I commend you on your appreciation for our oceans and your desire to learn about our reefs, but what you have to remember is that not everyone in this hobby shares your commitment. ...Speaking of anemones, I read somewhere in a thread that 500,000 anemones are plucked from the ocean every year, how many do you think survive? How many clams and corals die in the collection process, and of those that survive, how many die in tanks? To suggest this hobby is good for the reefs is laughable. IMO

I have never lost a fish, coral or clam, not even when I was a newbie, because I took the time to research. I however accept the fact that by keeping a reef tank, somewhere and somehow, I have impacted a natural reef in a negative way.

SPC,
LOL, I hope there are no hard feelings. I don't think that I ever agreed with ernie on "all of creation is under the domain of man", a little too religious for me, but I do agree with the 4 points he made earlier.

Haven't we had this conversation before?

 

[MandarinFish]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

So you and Glen would agree that keeping a Tang in a 29 gallon tank would be abuse?

That is literally the exact situation I am rescuing a Powder Blue from, along with a V-Tail Grouper.

So I will do my best.

Too many people buy an animal at the store regardless of where it comes from or it's needs. I rant all the time about it.

Honestly, sanctuaries and rescues are full of animals land, sea, and sky that have been neglectfully taken from nature by man.

Captive bred / fragged / aquacultured is always better, without question.

Sadly, some animals are in grave danger in the wild and require human conservation.

Condors. Lake Victoria Cichlids. Many tigers.

Buying an animal because it looks cool is unacceptable, though.

Wild caught is morally deplorable. True, all species have wild roots, but the farther you get the better it is and the lesser the impact.

I have a Beagle. At some point, her ancestors were taken into captivity as wolves from the wild. But in her lineage, a lot of dogs have been in human families that didn't come from the wild since.

Just ranting.

"Back to the Earth I screamed
and no one listened to me...
Back to the Earth I lived
and they all followed." - Rusted Root