My semi-random rant for the month...

[K77]

We are still keeping animals for our gratification. Motives for keeping the fish should be irrelevant if we give the same level of care. My reasons for keeping a reef tank (like the reasons of anyone on this board) are entirely selfish. Whether I do it because it looks cool or whether I do it to learn is irrelevant, IMO. I still do it to please me! IMO judging another's motives for keeping a tank is hypocrisy in its purest form.

I would like to believe there is a desire to understand, a desire to empathize, a desire to learn, a desire for companionship, a desire to enlighten outselves, a desire to not ignore things which we consider below us, and a lot of other things that I could fill a page with. Those are not irrelevant because they are probably what drive most of us in this hobby. There is very little self gratification to this hobby IME, except for maybe some very long term gratification, and I think we would give it up within a year or so if that were what we were only looking for. Watching frags grow isn't exactly entertainment, unless you're as sick as we are.

As for conservation, nothing we do could be counted as conservation, IMO.

woah. This is so far left wing there is nothing I can do with it, but I do highly, highly dissagree with this!! I think there are some very heavy shouldered conservationalists in this hobby. I really want to talk about some of the pioneers on this board, but let's talk about the average everyday hobbyist instead. Do you really think they have no impact in helping us understand and save the reefs, giant clams, and many other types of ocean life given the encyclopedia of stuff on the board? There was a post earlier basically saying that we should be helping preserve the elkhorn coral in the keys rather than removing it from the ocean (ignored). This is so bizzare to even consider. People destroy ocean life every day, but ironically this hobby removes only a small drop conpared to the mass destruction being cause by people ignoring what is right under their noses, simply because they don't understand it. And this hobby would not remove nearly as much as it does if it were not for the 90% that we've been talking about. There is nothing that can be done to save the keys unless the politicians care enough to do so by upgrading the sewage system. Unforunately that costs money. And the most bizarre twist of fate here is that it will be the reefers who will probably come along later to repopulate with their millions of captive grown staghorns, because they chose to try to understand these creatures. Now that's conservation!!

Unfortunately we generally harm what we try to understand. But ignoring it simply means we will always harm it without ever understanding it.

conversation. Being judgemental does two bad things: First, it make us forget our own culpability/responsibility by making others appear worse than us in our own minds. A feeling of moral superiority clouds our own judgement on our own actions. Second, it discourages the new hobbiest from coming here for advice. I do not see the point in bringing ethics into the discussion. I do not see
Ernie

mmmm, well there are two things you're talking about here. As far as our attitudes toward new folks, I agree. We do not need to be judgemental and we do need to have patience. But it is hard not to get upset with some attitudes sometimes. As far as ethics and morality...that's not what we're really talking about here. Attitude is what really matters, and unfortunately that's generally a big umbrella that hold a lot of things under it, like morality, religion, and ethics, etc. But those are really peripheral to the issue. They only help explain why we should/should not re-adjust our attitude, IMO. I think that Florida should upgrade their sewage systems and pay the billion bucks, and I am sometimes upset by their attitude toward it. But how does that feeling make me feel morally superior or judgmental? And does it really mean that I am questioning their morality or motives? I'm afraid I just don't follow that line of thinking.

 

[esmithiii]

As for this being a "Flame War," perhaps we all might need to calibrate our definition. A "flame" (IMO) is a personal, emotional criticism directed at one individual communicated in a harsh way, usually intended to be punitive and often intended to incite a heated response. Civil, respectful disagreement does not count as a flame, IMO, especially when the intent is to generate more dialog which helps everyone understand each other's point of view.

IMO when people disagree, one of three things is going on. 1st people really agree, but are miscommunicating, 2nd one individual has a point of view that is more emotional than logical,3rd the two individuals have very different philosophies/viewpoints that are due to some environmental factor(s) that is not clearly understood by both parties. IMO, healthy discussion/debate can "resolve" the first two cases, and can bring better understanding and respect in the third case (i.e. we understand and respect where each other is coming from and agree to disagree.)

To leave God out of it (when religion can greatly influence belief systems that touch on all aspects of our lives) makes it difficult to have resolution (in many cases) in the third case I mentioned above.

Ernie

 

[Anonymous]

Very well said, Ernie!





-John

 

[esmithiii]

I would like to believe there is a desire to understand, a desire to empathize, a desire to learn, a desire for companionship, a desire to enlighten outselves, a desire to not ignore things which we consider below us, and a lot of other things that I could fill a page with.

My point (I am not sure you understood it) is that all the things you mentioned are there to gratify (or please) the hobbyist. No one is in this hobby with the motive to save the reef. My point is simply that we have tanks for our own enjoyment., whether that enjoyment comes from learning, companionship, or giving empathy to non-sentient creatures does not make the motive unselfish- we own fish and other living things to pleas us! If you claim that your tank does not please you, then why else would you foot the expense and spend the time and effort? The bottom line is that all of us keep tanks to please us in some way. It is not my place to criticize your reasons if all your livestock is healthy, nor is it your place to criticize mine.

woah. This is so far left wing there is nothing I can do with it, but I do highly, highly dissagree with this!! I think there are some very heavy shouldered conservationalists in this hobby. I really want to talk about some of the pioneers on this board, but let's talk about the average everyday hobbyist instead. Do you really think they have no impact in helping us understand and save the reefs, giant clams, and many other types of ocean life given the encyclopedia of stuff on the board? There

Perhapse I was too harsh. Let me put it another way: I concede that hobbyists raise awareness, and that there is some value to that. I am not condemning the hobby. I am just stating that IMO, the harm the industry does greatly outweighs the good that any additional "awareness" that comes from reef tanks in our homes. This is just my opinion. I have no way of quantifying the harm, nor the benefit- it is just what I believe. My point is simply that we in the hobby have little room to "throw the first stone."

People destroy ocean life every day, but ironically this hobby removes only a small drop conpared to the mass destruction being cause by people ignoring what is right under their noses, simply because they don't understand it.

I agree that the damage caused by the hobby is a drop in the bucket compared with damage caused by others. I think that any "awareness" that we create as a hobbiests does not reach or affect most of the "offenders," most of whom will never be in the US nor ever see a reef tank. I do think that the industry can do quite a bit in the way of teaching sustainable harvesting techniques for pacific islanders, and if the locals' livelyhood comes from these harvests they will protect the natural reefs. To call the consumer a "conservationist" because of this, however, is quite a reach, IMO.

Attitude is what really matters, and unfortunately that's generally a big umbrella that hold a lot of things under it, like morality, religion, and ethics, etc. But those are really peripheral to the issue. They only help explain why we should/should not re-adjust our attitude, IMO. I think that Florida should upgrade their sewage systems and pay the billion bucks, and I am sometimes upset by their attitude toward it. But how does that feeling make me feel morally superior or judgmental? And does it really mean that I am questioning their morality or motives? I'm afraid I just don't follow that line of thinking.

My comments about feeling "morally superior" were directed at those who often seem to rebuke others who do not follow their husbandry techniques or who may not seem to place the same value on the life of the specimines we keep. Being judgemental is simply hypocricy, in my opinion. All of us, even those who buy only captive bred/propogated specimines, are in some ways responsible for killing fish, coral and the reef. We put money into the industry that does it. Calling someone cruel for putting a tang in a tank that is too small seems silly to me. Again, this is just my opinion.

As for it "being hard not to get upset with some attitudes sometimes, " that may be so. It is important to excercise restrain- it is truly easier to catch flies with honey than with vinager.

 

[K77]

My point (I am not sure you understood it) is that all the things you mentioned are there to gratify (or please) the hobbyist. No one is in this hobby with the motive to save the reef. My point is simply that we have

I agree with this. I do think that we need to be extra-ordinarily patient and understanding. I'm not sure that the reaction to the attitude that this thread was about was not totally deserved though. I also think you are speaking more in generalities that we need to be understanding (true!). Then when all else fails beat it with a hammer? At some point I think we do start to be more aware and care more about the inhabitants of our tank, but we essentially all are doing this because it has some hold on us.

point is simply that we in the hobby have little room to "throw the first stone."

The vaste percentage of the time yes. It really depends on whether the person wants to learn from their mistakes i guess. I'll wait a while before I trade in my hammer though. :lol:

any "awareness" that we create not reach or affect most of the "offenders," most of whom will never be in the US nor ever see a locals' livelyhood comes from these harvests they will protect the natural reefs. To call the consumer a "conservationist" because of this, however, is quite a reach, IMO.

Man, now we're getting into politics... Its really a question of being globally conserving or locally conserving. Its very hard to teach the population about the importance of this stuff when only .05% of the population knows anything about it. But the hobby has driven some major conservationalist efforts that you mentioned. We have pacific coral farms because of the demand for more consciousness concerns, and clam farms (they used to be pretty endangered too). We have more and more retailers selling SPS frags rather than colonies. Those are major, and it gets better every day. But with anything that is scientific, it takes a lot of education to change public consciousness. But for every person on this board that warns someone that some creature should not be kept, that is hopefully one less order that will be sent back to the pacific. For every note about how to raise an animal, that is a few more that can be captive bred. Not that that is the major overhall in the system that we need, but every ounce of knowledge helps. I would not consider myself to have a "liberal" viewpoint for this reason. Although global conservation is a nice ideal and I agree with it, realistically, the only people we can truely change, are ourselves. ...and maybe one shark keeper at a time... :lol:

Calling someone cruel for putting a tang in a tank that is too small seems silly to me.

I'm only referring to sharkky's post. I would probably agree that thread may have gone a tad too far there. :roll:

 

[esmithiii]

K,

Quick question- How many people have seen your tanks and then decide to do one? How many livestock will they kill as they learn?

I am not being argumentative, just pointing out that perhapse the "awareness" aspect of the hobby is overstated, and can also have a downside as well.

Good discussion.

By the way, my friends and family, co-workers, etc would call me one of the most "conservative" people they know. I am not pro-banning importation of fish/corals. I just believe that too many people (not directed to anyone in particular) get high and mighty when no one in the hobby has a completely "clear" conscience.

Ernie

 

[Contender]

I was recently directed to this thread....I wish I had seen it sooner. I had never gotten past the first page, so I had not realized it had turned into such an interesting discussion. I think that looking at different perspectives is something greatly needed in this hobby.

I see the term conservationist thrown around a lot. A recreational reefer, even a responsible one, claiming he is a conservationist is like a butcher claiming he is an animal activist because he tries to get the most possible meat out of each cow. Conservation begins in the ocean, not in a glass box in your living room.

Much good research has come from this industry. For example, a scientist in Ft. Pierce recently aquacultured hundreds of sea fans and replanted them in an area that had been battered by a ship running aground. But to bulk your leisure in with their research is a far reach. There is not a single person on this board who walked into an LFS and decided "I really want a reef tank because I think it would be interesting to research and ultimately conserve the environment." Our involvement in this hobby is for pleasure, not for anything else.

 

[esmithiii]

I see the term conservationist thrown around a lot. A recreational reefer, even a responsible one, claiming he is a conservationist is like a butcher claiming he is an animal activist because he tries to get the most possible meat out of each cow. Conservation begins in the ocean, not in a glass box in your living room.

Very well said. That is the point I was trying to convey, but you seem to have articulated it much better that I could.

FWIW- in your analogy, I do not condemn the butcher for what he does- (I love a nice, rare steak as often as I can afford it from a health perspective) but I will call BS when he calls himself a conservationist. I will call BS even more if he condemns others for "unethical treatment of animals," no matter how humanely he slaughters animals in his occupation.

Ernie

 

[K77]

I see the term conservationist thrown around a lot. A recreational reefer, even a responsible one, claiming he is a conservationist is like a butcher claiming he is an animal activist because he tries to get the most possible meat out of each cow. Conservation begins in the ocean, not in a glass box in your living room.

Very well said. That is the point I was trying to convey, but you seem to have articulated it much better that I could.

FWIW- in your analogy, I do not condemn the butcher for what he does- (I love a nice, rare steak as often as I can afford it from a health perspective) but I will call BS when he calls himself a conservationist. I will call BS even more if he condemns others for "unethical treatment of animals," no matter how humanely he slaughters animals in his occupation.

Ernie

Have fun. This is too left wing for me. My opinion still is (and always will be) that a butcher can do more for conservation in a year if he decides, due to raised awareness, to preserve just one cow, than a global conservation effort can ever do when in essense it never saves ANY.

If that is what it means to be a butcher, I would take that any day. I do not believe that conservation starts somewhere where a person has no access to understand the creatures they are trying to help. If being a butcher would mean that I might have a little more compasion through exposure to what I was working with, then I should think the butcher would come out a much better person in the end, not to mention more productive in the case of at least that one cow's life. 8O

Sorry, but this is all I have to say on this subject. I choose to be the butcher if this is our definition. :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Great freakin' topic!

Have fun. This is too left wing for me. My opinion still is (and always will be) that a butcher can do more for conservation in a year if he decides, due to raised awareness, to preserve just one cow, than a global conservation effort can ever do when in essense it never saves ANY.

I find your cemented opinion to be distressing. Why lock yourself into one way of thinking. Surely 1000 people deciding to eat less red meat every week would have a greater effect than a butcher not butchering 1 cow.
If you are simply saying that 'global conversation efforts' never get anything done I am also distressed. Surely we should continue to try to change things for the better rather than accept the status quo as unchangable.

Being a butcher is fine. Many butchers are compassionate and care about the enviornment and do all they can to lessen the impact they have.
But they, like us reefers, have to realize that what we do does have impact, that by any of our actions to stay in business or to stock a tank are destroying the enviornment. We can try to minimize the impact, but it won't be zero. We have to be realistic and honest with ourselves - we are hurting the enviornment because we want to, in the same way people using SUV's to drive to the store are hurting the enviornment because they want to.
Here's the thing - its fine to do it. Get a bigger car because you want it, throw away the plastic bottle because it is easier than recycling it, have a wood burning fire because you like the way it smells, buy a wild caught colony once and a while - just don't rationalize it.
It is our choice to do all of these things, and we can ALWAYS not do them. The more honest we are with oursleves about the impact of our actions, the more likely we are to change our actions. The more we make excuses and tell ourselves that we are justified in doing things that harmfully impact the world the more likely we are to continue to do them because we convince ourselves we are doing nothing wrong.
Perhaps some day in the future no one will take anything from the reefs, and home tanks will play a major role in repopulating the reefs. But right now, and for a good while yet, it seems to me the hobby is doing more harm to the world then good. And that is fine, as long as we don't lie to ourselves about it.

RR :mrgreen:

 

[flameangel1]

esmithiii,,

Motives for keeping the fish should be irrelevant if we give the same level of care.

This is a good point, but-
if people do not relate to the animals as being "real living creatures with a right to a decent home", they will NOT get the same level of care.
Someone who wants a "pretty fish" will only give it "half-!&*%# care !!

K77- wish I had your way with words !! [/quote]

 

[Anonymous]

esmithiii,,

Motives for keeping the fish should be irrelevant if we give the same level of care.

This is a good point, but-
if people do not relate to the animals as being "real living creatures with a right to a decent home", they will NOT get the same level of care.
Someone who wants a "pretty fish" will only give it "half-!&*%# care !!

I don't think this is true. I know many people keep 'beautiful' things, art, sculpture, guns, antiques...and give them trememdous care. I don't think something being alive makes people necessarily care for it more than something that isn't. Perhaps the cost is more central to treating things well. Or perhaps, people will treat things badly anyway because of the disposable culture we live in.

RR

 

[SPC]

Righty,
I agree with all you have said as it pertains to the way things are done today. I still think there is a way this hobby can actually have a positive impact on the reefs. As it stands right now I see the reefs being destroyed for many reasons, one of which is the aquarium trade. If we were to somehow turn things around however and give real ownwership (and economic value) to the reefs, then I feel there is a good chance that the reefs would be protected by the native people. It is currently being done in Africa where hunting is being used as an environemental tool to save habitat. I feel the aquarium trade could be this economic incentive for protecting the reefs, what do you think?
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Steve,

There are already places that are 'farming' the reef, like Gulf View. Could what you are talking about happen on a large scale, sure. Could it be done responsibliby (sp), maybe. I think it is a good idea and a good way to go.

That said, I think it is important that even though the scaniro you discribe may be the one we are working towards, the hobby today is doing way more harm than good. It would still be better if we all stopped buying reef critters until farming gets going. I reiterate this because some people will rationalize the current abuse of the reef by saying 'we are working to a sustainable, healthy goal', and that does not take away the damage being done now.

RR

 

[flameangel1]

Righty,,

I know many people keep 'beautiful' things, art, sculpture, guns, antiques...and give them trememdous care. I don't think something being alive makes people necessarily care for it more than something that isn't.

This is so discouraging !!! The lack of respect for life, that is.

Running a LFS responsibly,buying as many tank raised fish as available, propagating 75% and more of the corals I sell,educating every customer who walks in the door for hours, and yet you are saying it is all useless and of no more value than the artwork on my walls ??

I do value my inanimate artwork, but I value my animals a whole lot more !!!!
Wonder if it is only country people who value life, now days !!

 

[danmhippo]

Being an Asian, we have been told and educated about Siberian Tigers, Elephant, Rhino, Medicinal Seahorses, Sharks...etc. Have the world seen the collection practice improving through education? Yes. Have the world seen heightened environmental awareness? Yes. Is there still pochers conducting those activities? Yes, but is declining rapidly.

Why can't this be applied to education to marine aquarium hobbyists and LFS alike?

 

[flameangel1]

danmhippo,,

Why can't this be applied to education to marine aquarium hobbyists and LFS alike?

Try to tell myself that it is ethical to be in this business because of your quote above. But, reading this thread really makes one wonder if it is best to get out and not be encouraging the growth of this hobby. :? [/quote]

 

[Anonymous]

Righty,,

I know many people keep 'beautiful' things, art, sculpture, guns, antiques...and give them trememdous care. I don't think something being alive makes people necessarily care for it more than something that isn't.

This is so discouraging !!! The lack of respect for life, that is.

I don't know...it depends on what you think of as respect for life. People kill live stuff all the time. And people protect non living things at all costs - would you kill a fish to save the original Declaration of Independence? Is eating meat respectful of life? Can it be? It is all about what the individual thinks is important. Some find some living things to be important, some find the pretty living things to be important and want to kill the ugly living things, while some put more stock in things that are not alive. I don't think it is discouraging, it is just learning to accept that people think in different ways.

Running a LFS responsibly,buying as many tank raised fish as available, propagating 75% and more of the corals I sell,educating every customer who walks in the door for hours, and yet you are saying it is all useless and of no more value than the artwork on my walls ??

I am not saying that. I am saying that some people may think that, and they may not be wrong. At this point in time the industry you support is doing more harm than good to the worlds reefs. You are doing your best to minimize the harm. Good job!
And perhaps I am saying that all the work you are doing is of equal value to the artwork on your walls, and if you have an original Monet, that value is considerable.

I do value my inanimate artwork, but I value my animals a whole lot more !!!!

That is you. Others feel differently, and I don't think they are wrong, just different. Are animals more important than a piece of history? Who is weirder, the person who keeps live corals in a glass box, or the person who keeps knives from the Civil War in a glass box?

Wonder if it is only country people who value life, now days !!

Not at all. I am city folk and I value life.

danmhippo,,

Why can't this be applied to education to marine aquarium hobbyists and LFS alike?

Try to tell myself that it is ethical to be in this business because of your quote above. But, reading this thread really makes one wonder if it is best to get out and not be encouraging the growth of this hobby. :?

[/quote]

I wrestle with the same kind of questions. I am about to set up a bigger tank - should I? Well, I really want one, so I am going to, and eventhough I know it will be wasteful of animals and water and packaging and electricity I am still going to do it. Only you can decide the ethics you want to live by. I just think it is better for people to think about what they want to do without lying to themselves.
But, it does sound like you are one of the good ones, one of the ones that may help to move us to the more better future discussed in this thread. I say you stay, and you keep trying to make it better. Thanks for all you work already.

RR

 

[Anonymous]

Being an Asian, we have been told and educated about Siberian Tigers, Elephant, Rhino, Medicinal Seahorses, Sharks...etc. Have the world seen the collection practice improving through education? Yes. Have the world seen heightened environmental awareness? Yes. Is there still pochers conducting those activities? Yes, but is declining rapidly.

Why can't this be applied to education to marine aquarium hobbyists and LFS alike?

Not being an Asian, all I really know is what I see on the news and discovery channel and the like. Question for you: Is the Asian community finally coming to accept that seahorses have no medicinal value whatsoever and that finning sharks is one of the most abhorrent (not to mention detrimental to the entire oceanic macro-system) practices in the marine community, seeing as how shark-fins have almost no flavor (so what's the point in adding them to soup when they still have to add beef bullion to give any flavor) and shark cartilage has been shown to have no positive effects on the body?


-John

 

[yellow_dog]

This topic got way off track. Notwithstanding everyone's bigger picture political and religious views, there is one very pragmatic point that has been missed. That is, regardless of your motives for keeping reefs, irresponsible reef keeping, particlularly when coupled with the "short-timer" mentality, is a direct threat to everyone's ability to keep and purchase these animals in the future. Aquarists are a very easy scapegoat for legislators and environmental groups (no big dollar lobbying to protect us unlike the coastal developers, polluters, hotel resort chains). Irresponsible custody of these animals or increasing the demand for them (caused by the need to replace dead specimens or to meet the needs of someone who wants a work of art for 6 months) makes the possibility of a ban on collecting or keeping these animals a very real possibility. In addition to other concerns, when I get bothered that people come into the hobby and don't realize that many of the fish live for 20+ years or that anemones have a lifespan longer than a human and don't intend on keeping them for that long, it is because it likely adversely affects my opportunity to keep these animals in the future.