Fiji thread
- Thread starter SPC
- Start date
Hi Steve,
I agree there is some interesting discussion of some very important issues in the link you provided. ( I hope everyone takes the time to read it) It seems this stuff was a hot topic back in 1999 and then turned cooler. The new administration in the white house has something to do with it.
The argument for coral farming in the countries of origin just makes an immense amount of sense to me. Shutting down the industry makes no sense.
The thing that is really hard for me to understand would be Eric Borneman's seemingly intentional over-estimating the coral and live rock harvest from Fiji. Many of his statements in this thread and in other places would seem to be anti-industry, yet he writes books and profits from the very same industry. Apparently some of today's aquarium book authors state what they believe and don't worry about losing credibility from pro-trade people, if you know what I mean.
I agree there is some interesting discussion of some very important issues in the link you provided. ( I hope everyone takes the time to read it) It seems this stuff was a hot topic back in 1999 and then turned cooler. The new administration in the white house has something to do with it.
The argument for coral farming in the countries of origin just makes an immense amount of sense to me. Shutting down the industry makes no sense.
The thing that is really hard for me to understand would be Eric Borneman's seemingly intentional over-estimating the coral and live rock harvest from Fiji. Many of his statements in this thread and in other places would seem to be anti-industry, yet he writes books and profits from the very same industry. Apparently some of today's aquarium book authors state what they believe and don't worry about losing credibility from pro-trade people, if you know what I mean.
Posted by dizzy:
-Yes I think Eric would be very anti industry for those who are not eco friendly. I have noticed that he always seems to stand behind his convictions, number one being to increase the health of the reefs. His books are written in a way that educates reefers in two ways 1. Proper care for the animals they keep and 2. The impact those animals have on the reef itself. I believe that Eric is one of those unusual individuals who is actually trying to do the right thing :wink: .
-I know exactly what you mean, I wish they were all like that, if you know what I mean
.
Steve
-Yes I think Eric would be very anti industry for those who are not eco friendly. I have noticed that he always seems to stand behind his convictions, number one being to increase the health of the reefs. His books are written in a way that educates reefers in two ways 1. Proper care for the animals they keep and 2. The impact those animals have on the reef itself. I believe that Eric is one of those unusual individuals who is actually trying to do the right thing :wink: .
-I know exactly what you mean, I wish they were all like that, if you know what I mean
.Steve
Steve,
I don't always agree with Eric Hugo's logic, but he is a very intelligent and appears to be very passionate about his beliefs. My point is that this "ends justify the means" mentality is hardly ever the key to success in the long run. If you are going to be discussing very important issues, like whether or not people should be allowed to harvest their resources, then you need to get the facts straight. I don't fully understand the impact the marine industry is having on the reefs. About all I can do is listen to both sides and see which one is making the most sense. In this current situation all I can tell you is that I read both sides of the issue and it appeared like Eric Hugo was reporting certain harvest figures and people like Charles Delbeek, Julian Sprung, and Bob Mankin were disputing the reliability (or the accounting practices) of the figures Eric was reporting. Failure to properly report the facts can do severe damage to your cause, and it doesn't matter which side of the issue you are on.
Look at the financial mess corporate America has gotten us into by "cooking the books". Sometimes the truth hurts Steve, but I truly believe that honesty is always the best policy :!:
I don't always agree with Eric Hugo's logic, but he is a very intelligent and appears to be very passionate about his beliefs. My point is that this "ends justify the means" mentality is hardly ever the key to success in the long run. If you are going to be discussing very important issues, like whether or not people should be allowed to harvest their resources, then you need to get the facts straight. I don't fully understand the impact the marine industry is having on the reefs. About all I can do is listen to both sides and see which one is making the most sense. In this current situation all I can tell you is that I read both sides of the issue and it appeared like Eric Hugo was reporting certain harvest figures and people like Charles Delbeek, Julian Sprung, and Bob Mankin were disputing the reliability (or the accounting practices) of the figures Eric was reporting. Failure to properly report the facts can do severe damage to your cause, and it doesn't matter which side of the issue you are on.
Look at the financial mess corporate America has gotten us into by "cooking the books". Sometimes the truth hurts Steve, but I truly believe that honesty is always the best policy :!:
I will have to finish reading the thread tomorrow, but I do fing it very interesting. These things are discussed here as well. The players in that thread were pretty impressive. I have a feeling, from the parts I read, that Eric Borneman is "more correct" in his figures. He has a good many contacts with the people in that region. It does go to show that there is a lot more going on "behind the scenes" than most of us realize. One must remember these are the "power players" in this game.
Steve,
Thanks for the link!!!
Steve,
Thanks for the link!!!
Where can I learn more about Bob Mankin? Who is he and what is his back ground.
_________________
Honda Rafaga
_________________
Honda CB250
_________________
Honda Rafaga
_________________
Honda CB250
Kalk
Bob Mankin is a computer programer that lives in the SF Bay area. For many years he was the leader in bringing the premium farm reared acropora frags to MACNAs. He was selling excellent frags from Dave Palmer who was working with the native people in the Solomons. It is all there in his post along with his e-mail address. The figures he quoted are coming from an inside knowledge of the supply side of the industry.
Eric Hugo Borneman suggested he would be writting a paper to document his claims about the coral and live rock harvest from Fiji. Well it has been nearly three-years since the thread, does anyone know where Eric's report was published?
By reading the entire thread it is obvious to me that Green Peace was working to gather evidence to shut down the trade in wild corals. There were plenty of rumors going around that we had begun the countdown to shutdown back then. The live coral trade was obviously saved by those wacky Florida voters who can't read a ballot.
Enviromentalists would do their causes a great favor if they would stick to the facts when presenting the evidence. I have always considered myself a friend of the environment, but some of the stuff I have been reading lately, makes it difficult to tell which side is wearing the white hat.
Bob Mankin is a computer programer that lives in the SF Bay area. For many years he was the leader in bringing the premium farm reared acropora frags to MACNAs. He was selling excellent frags from Dave Palmer who was working with the native people in the Solomons. It is all there in his post along with his e-mail address. The figures he quoted are coming from an inside knowledge of the supply side of the industry.
Eric Hugo Borneman suggested he would be writting a paper to document his claims about the coral and live rock harvest from Fiji. Well it has been nearly three-years since the thread, does anyone know where Eric's report was published?
By reading the entire thread it is obvious to me that Green Peace was working to gather evidence to shut down the trade in wild corals. There were plenty of rumors going around that we had begun the countdown to shutdown back then. The live coral trade was obviously saved by those wacky Florida voters who can't read a ballot.
Enviromentalists would do their causes a great favor if they would stick to the facts when presenting the evidence. I have always considered myself a friend of the environment, but some of the stuff I have been reading lately, makes it difficult to tell which side is wearing the white hat.
Yes, his post was one of the very few on this subject that used logic and math to show what effects this hobby may have on the reefs where collection is taking place. Enough time has passed to see the a five year result of collection, why are there no updates/ Or is it what I suspect.that there are no signs of over collection ?Even Erics own account in "Where do our Corals come from" His visit to one of the largest collection areas seemed to result in little prof of over collection for this hobby.{the food industry is harming the area}?
_________________
gremlin
_________________
Dodge Vehicles
_________________
gremlin
_________________
Dodge Vehicles
So Dizzy what difference does a few coral and fish make to the argument.
Unless something is done NOW this hobby is doomed.
Eric and others like him who have the courage to stand up for the preservation of our hobby, deserve all of our support.
Industy for the most part ignore this with the result that the governments of the world will shout down our hobby and their businesses.
Industy wake up and change your ways!
Unless something is done NOW this hobby is doomed.
Eric and others like him who have the courage to stand up for the preservation of our hobby, deserve all of our support.
Industy for the most part ignore this with the result that the governments of the world will shout down our hobby and their businesses.
Industy wake up and change your ways!
This Industry is far more doomed if we PRETEND the problem is ten times greater then it is......I still would love to see ONE five year report that shows any long term effect from coral harvest? Even this one example would be one in ten thousand......being that there are ten tousand islands in the Indo Pacific and coral harvesting takes place in about six locations world wide..........
_________________
financial bailout
_________________
Baha'i Faith Forum
_________________
financial bailout
_________________
Baha'i Faith Forum
Kalkbreath the typical reaction of industry is to ask for yet another study to be done.
Dizzy
The arguments blaming the fisherman and pollution runoff etc. simply do not hold any water anymore. If the majority of reefers believe that we are seriously damaging our hobby's environment how do you expect the government guys to view our hobbby.
All you have to do is visit a reef in the Phillipines to see the damage our industry and hobby has done.
IMO the modern aquarist strives to buys cultured and fragged corals and does not purchase fish that are impossible to keep in our tanks.
The old ways are simply no longer acceptable and cannot be tolerated any longer.
Dizzy
The arguments blaming the fisherman and pollution runoff etc. simply do not hold any water anymore. If the majority of reefers believe that we are seriously damaging our hobby's environment how do you expect the government guys to view our hobbby.
All you have to do is visit a reef in the Phillipines to see the damage our industry and hobby has done.
IMO the modern aquarist strives to buys cultured and fragged corals and does not purchase fish that are impossible to keep in our tanks.
The old ways are simply no longer acceptable and cannot be tolerated any longer.
No Corals are taken in the Phillipines for this hobby.....so any coral damage is a great example of what happens when no one cares about the live coral ? and the amount of hobby fish taken when compared to the foodfishing in these islands is forty times.......And still these islands are the most productive on Earth.
_________________
grilling Forum
_________________
Depression Forum
_________________
grilling Forum
_________________
Depression Forum
Kalk,
Why do you say no corals are taken from the phillipines? It may not be "legal", but in reading the thred it seems to me it happens.
As far as numbers goes, it seems to me that there are no real good ones. Each person thinks their numbers are correct and has reason to believe it. None have the "proof" that their number is correct. One thing the thread assuredly points out, there needs to be accurate recording of the take.If one is under the impression that taking corals off of the reef is not damaging, let us think about just how natural it is for man to go and whack it apart. I am not suggesting that it should stop, but as in Australia on the GBR, studies need to be done to determine the take that can be sustainable. This, along with farming, is the only way the hobby will be able to remain viable. The curio trade, to me is disguting, and should be banned. There is no more selfish thing that happens in the oceans than the indescriminate killing for skeletons of a once living creature. Just goes to show how good we are as a species.
Why do you say no corals are taken from the phillipines? It may not be "legal", but in reading the thred it seems to me it happens.
As far as numbers goes, it seems to me that there are no real good ones. Each person thinks their numbers are correct and has reason to believe it. None have the "proof" that their number is correct. One thing the thread assuredly points out, there needs to be accurate recording of the take.If one is under the impression that taking corals off of the reef is not damaging, let us think about just how natural it is for man to go and whack it apart. I am not suggesting that it should stop, but as in Australia on the GBR, studies need to be done to determine the take that can be sustainable. This, along with farming, is the only way the hobby will be able to remain viable. The curio trade, to me is disguting, and should be banned. There is no more selfish thing that happens in the oceans than the indescriminate killing for skeletons of a once living creature. Just goes to show how good we are as a species.
The accounting proccess for the live corals trade is and has been for many years quite tight. The numbers , Kept by CITES ARE there for any one to compare......I spent hours just last week filling out the paperwork and watching Fish and Wildlife unbox and check the shipment. There are only six ports in the US that even permit the "Landing" of animals into this country and the Air lines wont even let you near the shipment until both Customs and F&W have done there thing.....And if you think its easy to smuggle in Corals today or ever again with the 911 issue ,then you have not tried to send a package in the past year. . Also.Why is it that its always the NEXT five year that we will see the harm this hobby brings about to the reefs? I know why, and the several year old thread above illustrates the point that the doom and gloomers of five years ago were not correct .
_________________
Honda CB500T
_________________
Chinese Forum
_________________
Honda CB500T
_________________
Chinese Forum
Well, I read no doom and gloom, only concerned individuals. Your 5 years pass a lot faster than mine, fo me it has only been 3 since 1999 :wink: Is the paperwork you took care of for here, or for collecting? That, from my reading, is where the discrepencies lie. Just because it is shipped, doesn't mean more wasn't collected. I don't know. Are you saying there is no more illegal collecting and that it can't get here? I guess no more drugs can come in since 9-11 either? Granted security is tighter, but far from tight.
Steve,
Did you read Thomas Heeger's e-mail in the noaa thread? Where he is at they hear 30-40 dynamite blasts per day for foodfishing. The good news is that is sounds like they are setting up a coral farm in the Philippines. Granted the Philippines are a project, but financial support and education are the key. Boycotting these countries will only help to seal the fate of the reefs. We have got to quit blaming the aquarium industry for all the problems and begin to realize that it can be part of the solution if managed correctly.
Did you read Thomas Heeger's e-mail in the noaa thread? Where he is at they hear 30-40 dynamite blasts per day for foodfishing. The good news is that is sounds like they are setting up a coral farm in the Philippines. Granted the Philippines are a project, but financial support and education are the key. Boycotting these countries will only help to seal the fate of the reefs. We have got to quit blaming the aquarium industry for all the problems and begin to realize that it can be part of the solution if managed correctly.
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
