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Kalkbreath

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If you think people are landing live coral heads on the beach in Malibu in the middle of the night after boating three weeks from Fiji.....or that Truckers are hiding Acro frags in the boXes of blue jeans comming out of Mexico.or that people are swallowing brain corals boarding Delta plane and and the" Passing "them the over the toilet once they have made it into the USA .....well then common sense has passed you by? Live corals can only come to the USA "ALIVE"by the limited Tourist plans leaving the islands, Drugs or live corals Are very hard to sneak in on these planes. And with live corals costing less then five dollars each its hardly worth it!
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dizzy

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Kalkbreath

You have a suspicious amount of insider knowledge concerning drug smuggling. How do you explain it?
 

Kalkbreath

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Actually Im involved with the international Fiji corn smuggling......there is no profit in doing it ,its impossible to sell once Ive snuck it into the country..but someone has to be doing it.....or else what would all the anti corn groups use as an example of how out of control the corn importation is?
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diz,
You won't hear me say that the aquarium industry is the only problem. If you do, please have me committed :wink: That is the point that has been made here, I think. We, as a hobby, need to be in the forefront of trying to get the reefs under better management. We need to be the ones shouting help the people collecting or we will be the ones that can't have a reef in their house. The collectors can, and do, look at the reef all the time.

kalk,
I think i wasn't clear enough. Do you really think that all the fish, coral, and rock that are collected get shipped? I have heard, not seen, a lot of stories on how the collection and handling goes over there. Not at all what we would consider good conditions. The mortality rate has to be pretty significant on the collector end. These numbers wouldn't show up in shipping logs. i was also pointing out the fallacy that just because one or ten boxes get checked that there is security or any real knowledge of what comes into the country in the ports. That is simply not the case, and can't be.
 

Contender

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Kalk,
Just wondering if you are familiar with importation practices in places like Europe and Japan. I hear they represent a very large part of the industry, and pay top dollar for corals and fish. I am not familiar with their trade laws, but maybe they have more leniant trade restrictions, or are more tolerable to coral illegally taken from places like the Phillipines. And if they are not, perhaps it would be easier or more profitable to smuggle these animals into somewhere like Japan, which is alot closer, and would fetch much higher prices for the goods.

Again, I do not know anything about the importation of coral to any of these places, I just think its worth mentioning that there are other markets for it.

As far as rediculing SteveNichols for suggesting that coral might be smuggled, you should definitely read this article:
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/artic ... ln04a.html

It may not seem rational, but it is definitely possible. Granted, this occurred within the country, but it still shows that there are weaknesses in the system.
 

Kalkbreath

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Whom ever wrote that artical is not too sharp...I wish I could find this story written by someone else ...........If these corals were alive then the 100 ton was 95% water ( this would leave five tons of actual Coral or five washing machine boxes full} ......It is most likley that this was for the dried coral trade . These corals were already in the country so Fish and wildlife never had a chance to inspect.
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dizzy

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Kalk,

I remember hearing Charles Delbeek commenting on this case and it was a very serious incident. The newclip author was Curtis Lum and you can reach him at [email protected] I don't think corals get smuggled all that often because they are mostly legal. The smuggling starts after you ban them.

Contender I think the US market is by far the largest. Europe is quicker to ban threatened species than the US. I have spoken with some German hobbyists who told of a smuggled frag or two from the Red Sea, that has been grown, fragged, and passed around to dozens of enthusiasts tanks, but I don't think it is much of a problem. I doubt Japan is bad about smuggling either. Let us hope reef tanks don't become popular in China.
 

Kalkbreath

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I dont think Curtis would like me to ask him why he thinks there is only ONE place in the world that corals are legal to take .or why he thinks corals are slow growing ,when the reef that lava covered about the same time on another island has fully recovered? When corals are smuggled in to this country as ceramics they die........it usually takes at least three days to three weeks to clear U S Customs.......Heck it takes one day sometimes to clear Fish and Wildlife? I think more fish die waiting for fish& Wildlife then at anyother time?{ The last hours of a long trip }What good is that? Now if we ban certain fish this process will kill more because they will have to look in every bag!
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Contender

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SPC":12ghn1tk said:
Posted by dizzy:
Contender I think the US market is by far the largest.


I think I have heard the figure at about 80% of corals going to the US.
Steve

Thanks....I didn't really know much about how the market was divided...I just know that those Japanese tanks you always see are quite impressive. But of course, we only see the million dollar tanks with all the trimmings, and I wouldn't assume that there is one of those in every Japanese household.


This is going out on a limb, but let me ask this question....would it be possible to ship corals from the Phillipines to somewhere like Fiji, where it is legal to collect, then from there ship it out to places in boxes marked "Fiji"? The likelyhood that a Fish and Wildlife guy could tell were the heck a coral comes from is slim to none. I know this would add a lot of shipping time, so it may not be all that feasable. However, I also know that where theres a will, theres often a way....and that despite all the efforts by customs, there is usually a backdoor.
 

dizzy

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Contender wrote:

This is going out on a limb, but let me ask this question....would it be possible to ship corals from the Phillipines to somewhere like Fiji, where it is legal to collect, then from there ship it out to places in boxes marked "Fiji"? The likelyhood that a Fish and Wildlife guy could tell were the heck a coral comes from is slim to none. I know this would add a lot of shipping time, so it may not be all that feasable. However, I also know that where theres a will, theres often a way....and that despite all the efforts by customs, there is usually a backdoor.[/quote]


Contender if I were you I wouldn't even think about. You seem like a bright guy. There are plenty of ways to earn an honest living in this country. Besides most of those same corals can be had legally from Indo so where's your market?
 

dizzy

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Contender,

Sorry about the double post but I wanted to clear up a couple of points. I really don't want to be sarcastic with you, but you seem to be on some type of Witch Hunt. The marine ornamental industry has been under the microscope for the past several years. It has some serious problems in certain countries with destructive fishing, and also has problems with high mortality throughout much of the chain of custody (coc). The fact that the industry has problems is no reason to try and find ways to make the industry look even worse than it really is.

Organizations like MAC and agencies like the Coral Reef Task Force are well aware of the weaknesses and abuses within the system. Solutions are being developed that will address the problems in a manner than does not destroy the industry. Despite the opinions of some, the United States does not have the moral authority to further impoverish Third World countries by enacting collecting prohibition, based on flawed logic. If countries like the Philippines choose to not allow coral export, that is their decision as it should be. While it may not always have been the case, I think the people who are dealing with the industry issues are extremely well informed these days.

A little patience is needed while the changes that are under way have time to be nutured and grown. I would have to believe that almost everyone involved in the marine industry would like to see it be sustainable. Together we can secure a brighter future for the hobby.
 

Contender

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Dizzy":12oi0rwa said:
Contender,

Sorry about the double post but I wanted to clear up a couple of points. I really don't want to be sarcastic with you, but you seem to be on some type of Witch Hunt. The marine ornamental industry has been under the microscope for the past several years. It has some serious problems in certain countries with destructive fishing, and also has problems with high mortality throughout much of the chain of custody (coc). The fact that the industry has problems is no reason to try and find ways to make the industry look even worse than it really is.

Organizations like MAC and agencies like the Coral Reef Task Force are well aware of the weaknesses and abuses within the system. Solutions are being developed that will address the problems in a manner than does not destroy the industry. Despite the opinions of some, the United States does not have the moral authority to further impoverish Third World countries by enacting collecting prohibition, based on flawed logic. If countries like the Philippines choose to not allow coral export, that is their decision as it should be. While it may not always have been the case, I think the people who are dealing with the industry issues are extremely well informed these days.

A little patience is needed while the changes that are under way have time to be nutured and grown. I would have to believe that almost everyone involved in the marine industry would like to see it be sustainable. Together we can secure a brighter future for the hobby.

I don't get it....Have you just asked me very nicely to shut up? I feel like an enemy of the state who just discovered a conspiracy. You completely evaded answering my question, and then digressed into topics completely unrelated to anything I have ever said.

I'm not trying to make the industry look bad, I hope thats not what you think I'm trying to achieve.

I never suggested that this type of illegal trade was occurring, I was just inquiring if it was possible (and no, its not because I'm trying to set up a coral cartel of any kind, it is merely out of curiousity).

I also am not advocating any type of banning in the trade, as you may have been suggesting I did in your post....I agree with kalk when he says that if we ban certain types of fish, it would just make the current laws much harder to enforce. Reforms are necessary, but banning is not the answer.

I hope you didn't take my posts to be an attempt to take down the industry...I was just inquiring on the subject. I don't think its "making the industry look worse than it really is" to inquire about the origins of the coral we get. If they are being caught illegally and too destructively, it should be brought to light and not swept under the carpet. If this is shrouded in secrecy, there will never be a voice to advocate reform. And if my questions are completely off the far end and not even related to anything occurring in this hobby, then what are you even worried about?


Organizations like MAC and agencies like the Coral Reef Task Force are well aware of the weaknesses and abuses within the system.

Thats great, but I would like to be aware of them too, wouldn't you?
 

Kalkbreath

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From my standpoint......Its very hard to tell the degree at which one is expressing himself or herself on this board........all the :wink: :roll: :oops: :P :twisted: :x :D :( :eek: Faces in the world will not convey the proper subtle degrees of emotion hidden in someones reply....I tend to over do it when attempting to show alternate perspectives ,Yet the LAST thing I wish is for someone to stop replying and feel that their veiwpoints are not welcome........Because this type of questioning is very much needed if this hobby is to save the reefs from the truely harming forces and industries which impact their health and future>...........
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dizzy

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Contender,

It's all a matter of interpretation. I just want people to think about the stuff I write. I'm not asking you to shut up. I just honestly don't believe there any conspiracies going on. At least nothing large scale, but I am at the end of the coc and not the beginning or middle. It would be just as illegal to ship corals from the Philippines to Fiji, as it would to ship them from the Philippines directly to the US. It would be a violation of Philippine law and not US law per say. I guess it could be done, but like I said, you can get pretty much the same stuff from Indo without the risks.

I guess anything can and will be smuggled if there is enough money to be made, and this includes drugs, birds, reptiles, people, and perhaps even corals. If there is currently a market for illegal corals I would think the market is pretty small. By looking at the level of consciousness I have seen on this forum and others, I would think very few people who have the skills to keep coral would want to participate in an illegal trade. Smuggled Philippine corals would not arrive any cheaper than legal Indo corals. If you find out about any real conspiracies I would like to hear about them.
 

naesco

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I am advocating the banning of capture and import of species of coral and fish that are impossible to keep in our tanks.
Those species are set out in the industry forum on this board.
Obviously those experienced reefers who have the time and money to research, universites and industry itself would be exempt.
It is an error to think that something will happen voluntarily because most LFS do not support MAC efforts in that area.
The result therefor will be severe government imposed restrictions on everything which will affect us in a major way.
 

Kalkbreath

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Have you ever come up with how this ban would help the reefs? Why not come up with a list of "VITAL to the health of the reef list " with fish like Tangs and Groupers? Parrot fish and Butterflies Kill coral and harm the reef and besides very few of these types of fish are even imported when compared to Tangs and Damsels?
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dizzy

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naesco,

I'm not opposed to leaving extremely difficult animals on the reef. I don't sell them now so it would have zero impact on my business. I think with the popularity of these bbs the stores that continue to sell impossible critters are setting themselves up for ridicule and failure. The tang police are just the first troops on the ground. The butterfly police are coming. I also think if such a ban would have been in effect 30-years ago we wouldn't have reef tanks today. Good night.
 

Eric Borneman

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Since we are discussing a going-on-four-year-old-topic, I thought I would clarify a few things. First, Jonathan Lowrie and I had done a presentation at the National Coral Reef Institute's international scientific conference on coral reef assessment, monitoring, and management on the effects of the aquarium trade in April of 1999 that had encompassed information we had attempted to acquire for at least a year beforehand. We discovered that data on the trade was virtually non-existent and had not been looked at - as we already knew, and the aquarium trade was blissfully ignorant of this aspect. Following our presentation, I continued to investigate and pursue the matter and acquired raw data from the government and sorted through several thousand pages of files.

As it happens, this time period was exactly when other groups had also become interested in assessing the marine aquarium trade, and the now seminal publications and organization that exist (TRAFFIC, WWF, MAC, USCRTF, etc.) were only in progress. In fact, it was only after showing Andy Bruckner this data, which had only been requested from the same source a month beforehand by the first investigating groups, that the anomalies in the trade data became apparent. In part, this very information brought up the inconsistencies and poor methodologies in reporting of the until-then virtually ignored coral trade. So, the numbers I reported in the coral-list thread were ultimately wrong, thankfully, although until then these were the data that showed the need for standardization of reporting according to weight, pieces, live v. dead, etc. It also set the stage for further work that is and has been accomplished on these issues by myself, with others, and, more importantly, by funded and interested parties.
 

SPC

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Thanks for the update Eric, and thanks for all you do to help educate people about the worlds reefs. :D
Steve
 

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