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Kalkbreath

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All this work......and still no evidence showing long term effects from coral harvesting? Why hasnt any of this data been released? perhaps the truth is not what the researchers had hoped to uncover?What effects has this hobby had on Acropora, Morish Idols, butterfly, or Gonipora populations worldwide? Why the big secrete?
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dizzy

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Eric Borneman":fauxp7k4 said:
So, the numbers I reported in the coral-list thread were ultimately wrong, thankfully, although until then these were the data that showed the need for standardization of reporting according to weight, pieces, live v. dead, etc. It also set the stage for further work that is and has been accomplished on these issues by myself, with others, and, more importantly, by funded and interested parties.

Hey Eric I just want you to know I wasn't accusing you of coral McCarthyism in my earlier posts. I know coral harvest information was shady back in the mid to late 90s and before. Somehow getting the facts straight always seems to calm down the emotionalism. Thanks for setting the record straight.
 

Eric Borneman

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Kalkbreath:

As I MENTIONED, it is a recent investigation, and so how do you expect to have long-term results when investigations are just beginning?

Second, there is now significant amounts of information available, in publications by the groups I mentioned. None of it as complete as it could/should/will be, but there is a significant start.

Third, its Moorish Idols, butterflyfishes, and Goniopora.

Fourth, Acropora is the world's most speciose coral genus and many species are among the most common, too. Bad example.

Try Catalaphyllia, Nemenzophyllia, Cyanarina, Blastomussa and others banned by the EU - and for good reason according to the surveys we did in coral collecting areas, written about right here by me on reefs.org, and presented at last years MACNA by Andy Bruckner...and used in a TRAFFIC report on the coral trade in Indonesia ( a 90+ page publication), all in lay terms, too, for everyone to read and understand...not to mention scores of other reports, papers, presentations, workshops, posters, conferences, discussions, etc. Elizabeth Wood has recently put out an 80 page report on aquarium fish collection. Reports on coral and/or fish collection exist from the Great Barrier Reef, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, live rock and coral harvest in Fiji, ...shall I go on? All in the past few years. Of course, its apparent you haven't actually read any of those.

So, rather than reciting the age-old pledge of ignorance by the cumulative hobby (not everyone!) that "we don't know, and we don't make a difference, and there are worse threats, and researchers are cloaked in secrecy and haven't found what they 'expected," get busy actually investigating and reading the literature on the subject. I think you'll be surprised - some is better than expected, some is worse than expected.

In looking back at your previous comments, and your presemed expertise, I'm surprised you haven't offered the real facts to all of us before now and saved all us researchers the work.
 

Kalkbreath

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I see you still have nothing to show ........yes in collection areas, there are going to be some items that were collected and now missing?{simple math} But being that collection areas make up about one tenth of the reefs in the world and that the corals you mentioned have very little to do with the reef structure itself {lagoon corals} Why is it that many are still attempting to suggest that this hobby has any effect on the REEFS? One bumphead Parrot fish kills more SPS coral a year then the whole hobby takes. ..........The Jumbo jet Air strip in the Maldives{for ecotourism} killed more live coral when they used it for fill ,then this hobby could use in one hundred years! .............. The most important fish on the reef are the herbivors {Tangs} the most distructive are the parrots and coral eating butterflies. Yet all we ever hear is that we need to ban sps coral collection and coral eating butterflies! I have had enough! If the spokesmen for the hobby wont stand up for a truthful perspective.Then I will! {As soon as I learn to type and spell}
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dizzy

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Eric,

I hate to risk taking fire that was meant for kalkbreath, but I do have a couple of thoughts I would like to put into the discussion. The first that it would be nice if you would provide links to the reports that you sited in your post, so those that want to educate themselves could.

The second part is now changed to: I hope the researchers are studying the effects the aquarium industry is having on the reefs with an open mind. The grant system is somewhat flawed, but does allow important work to be done.
 
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diz,
Did Steve Robinson, a dealer, have any explanation why dealers (not all) don't treat the animals in their care better? Did he explain why they accept animals that have an abysmal survival record? Could it be for the same reason he is arguing, the sheer pursuit of the almighty dollar? Like I have heard so often, you spot it you got it. Were it not for dealers chasing the dollar, there could be no work for the researchers. I fail to see how not presenting the results of the researchers on many of the reefs around would help them get more money. There is a lot of money available and used on the GBR by many. In OZ, there is no import or export of coral, or inverts of any kind if memory serves. There has been oodles of research done on growth and live coral take. The hobby was almost shut down by one man last year. He didn't like the collection going on in a World Heritage area. Only by an immense effort by people like Dallas Warren, Andrew Trevor-Jones and others, using the research were they able to keep the hobby alive. They have shown a sstainable harvest is possible and the science helped. I can hardly see this not being the case all over the world.

The problem is that in many parts of the world there is a vast amount of poaching and little to no enforcement. Again, no one is saying that oure hobby is the worst damage that occurs. In Australia, there is ample evidence that the hobby is the least damaging activity on the reef. There is ample evidence that fishing, agricultural run-off, and other boating activities damage the reef far more than the hobby. The problem then is one of money. The tourist trade, the food generated by the agriculture adn fishermen is a lot more money than our hobby. I dare say that is also true through out the rest o the world. To make it look like something is being done the lowest money maker is often the first to go, as is one considered to be a luxury. Guess what that is. It is important for the hobby to show that it is sustainable, to show that it doesn't damage the reefs more than the education and money generated can reasonably outweigh the "cost". There are a lot of people up in arms about the state of the reefs in the world. Many/most are not doing real well. There is a lot of research to show it. Get a subscription to Coral Reefs Journal and have a read. It is a publication of the International Society for Reef Studies. A membership is only 80 or so dollars a year. You can see abstracts at http://www.link.springer.de/link/service/journals/00338/index.htm
 

dizzy

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Steve,

Hey this was just on 20/20 so please check it out (Missing lynx)

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/dai ... 020802.htm

John Stossel is a pretty straight up guy in my books.
OBTW I don't get your OZ analogy to the Philippines or Indo. Sounds like the Aussies shut down the coral collection and the reefs are still dying.

Kalk can be far out there at times, but he wasn't wrong when he told Eric that the corals the EU were banning were not reef building corals.

The grant money people are often pork fed. Some are good and some are not.

Being shut out or somewhat kept in the dark regarding the future of the industry is frustrating. News reports like the one above put doubts in your mind.
 
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Anonymous

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The analogy of Oz and the rest of the world is that were it not for people doing research and getting it out to the public, it is very easy to shut down our hobby. People arent' going to stop farming, they aren't going to stop fishing. If we don't have the proof that what we do doesn't harm the reef it will be easy to shut down. The coral collection was not shut down because people that are "in the know" got active. Were it not for those people, there would be no collection.

As far as the corals the EU has baned, why did they do it? I don't know. I would bet it has nothing to do with anything but the perception that they come directly from the reef. That is what I am trying to point out. The general public, and our leadders, are pretty ignorant of the reefs. If one says coral the first thought is reef. They hear someone say something about 1 or 2 reefs and generalize it: All the reefs are in big trouble. The media does't help at all. They only report what peple want to hear whether it is true or not.

To attack the people that are trying to help from you living room is pretty asanine. Nothing like biting the hand that feeds you. I got memberships to several publications so I can read what kind of research is being done. It is extensive. To say that we are seriously affecting the reefs is not easy to disprove. First, one must get the collection numbers, and they must be accurate. Poaching, whether one likes to think of it or not, happens. This affects the numbers. Next one needs to know the past behavior of the reef. There are borings being done one several to determine growth rates and distribution. Next, present reproductionneeds to be factored in. That is a lot of time and money. That is why it is important for us to give as we can and be involved.

Tried the link but it didn't work. Many/most are in professional journals that aren't published on the net without having a mebership or some kind of connection. i see it all the time in the medical field from my wife. I am pretty sure Mary has some good links over in the industry forum or at her site.
 
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Anonymous

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Not you dizzy, sorry for the confusion. I tried the link again and it didn't work for me. I will try a couple different forms of it. i think ABC news is down.
 

SPC

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The biologists also have an explanation; they say they weren't trying to cheat, they were just testing the labs to make sure they could identify lynx fur. The locals don't buy that.

Was there any type of disciplinary action taken against these biologists dizzy?
Steve
 

dizzy

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SPC

I'm really glad you got to read it. I think they did get an ass chewing. Something like Clinton might have gotten for the Rich pardon. We're the country who let OJ walk and slapped Jihad Johnny on the wrist. Lying, cheating, and my favorite "spinning" are the acceptable norm.
 

dizzy

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SPC":2m5u3vp3 said:
Posted by dizzy:
I think they did get an ass chewing.

-I wonder if they did or if they were indeed found innocent of this accusation?
Steve

Steve the article says and I quote " The biologists were verbally counseled." If that's not a politically correct way of saying "ass chewing" I don't know what is. One of their own turned them in.
 

dizzy

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Contender":2uzfd5f5 said:
Here is a link to the study by Dr. Elizabeth Wood that Eric Borneman mentioned.

http://www.mcsuk.org/action/aquarist.html

Good show Contender. There really is some very interesting information in the Woods study. It gives some needed perspective into the difficulty of tracking the trade in marine ornamentals. It is interesting that US demand seems to have peaked in 1995.
 
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Anonymous

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Arguing with Kalkbreath always ends in an impasse. I've tried over and over again to offer him sound papers from a couple of works I've cited and he does a good job of spinning it, but, politely, I don't think he really hasthe time to find and read the papers, and I think this leads ultimately to his ineffectiveness in arguing factually against harvesting as a negative impact.

However, this doesn't mean he isn't a great person/businessman and doesn't run a good shop. It simply means that I hope whoever he buys his fish and coral from is a little more altruistic and interested in sustaining the hobby. I've yet to meet him, but I'm sure he does care about the hobby and is debating whether or not to be concerned. But, when you spend all of your time trying to open a new store, it doesn't leave much time to revel in our nerdery and actually understand the rather exhausting papers and discussions regarding the detriment that over harvest causes.

Looking forward to your talk on Saturday,
Brian
 

Kalkbreath

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I checked out the link above ,read the whole thing and seems there might be a few fish missing in the collection zones{ thats what collecting means} but thirty years of collecting and thats it? They say that the total collection numbers are remaining steady........so explain: why will the next ten years lead to a different situation? Same amount of fish collected for twenty years and very little decline ,EVEN in the collection zones {which account for only10 % of the reefs} What am I missing? {the same thing the research is !}}
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Kalkbreath

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Oh I forgot.......I never really thought this hobby had no lasting effect on the fish populations........but thanks to the Woods' report I am now convinced that this too is quite silly{ the idea of the hobby impacting fish populations } So thanks for the info!...... the truth Is a wonderfull thing! Keep those links comming! ........................................................... Ps Speakng of scientific studies:,,,true or false......one adult bump head Parrot fish has been shown to "TAKE" more SPS coral per year then this hobby?
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