Niger Trigger reef safe?

[TheZooFarmer]

WOW everyone wants to disagree with me and call me the bad man. But no one wants to answer the poster of this threads original question. Who is doing the real damage here?

Me posting 8 different links that support my original post calling the niger trigger not reef safe.

Or

Every tom, dick , and harry trying to figutre any reason they can to disagree with me and

marine depot
wet web media
fish domain
live aquaria
saltwater fish
central pets
aquatic retail
aquatic creations

Not only that sea maiden has quoted wet web media in this thread I guess she is wrong also. Len has also agreed with these 8 websites as confirmed through email.

I have asked at least half a dozen times can anyone post a single shred of contradicting information? But all we keep on hearing is about when the niger trigger eats in the wild and the shape of their mouth. Wow that is relevant?????????????????

If my name was Sprung or Delbeck I would have 100 people on this board agreeeing with me, but since I am not these people everyone is finding reasons to disagree with me, even if it makes them wrong.

That is just plain stupidity, now one more time. I have never seen a niger trigger before and I am thinking of adding one to my reef tank, can anyone post a link or refernce to a book that says a niger trigger is reef safe?

 

[Anonymous]

Look, Zoo, even within WetWeb we disagree. The HUGE differences within our crew and what's happening here are many, not the least of which being that we allow for personal experiences being different. It also helps that many of us know each other personally, as alluded to previously. Why in the world are you still worked up about this? You made statements as if they were unequivocal, I've tried to qualify mine as well as possible, you and I and others are going to disagree, though I'm quite willing to admit that there will always be cases where the general rule has been broken (that whole "generalities, and anomalies" thing) and in the end, on a case by case basis, essentially we'll ALL find supporting information and experience.

In the long run, in the grand scheme of things, is it really worth becoming so upset? In my opinion, not at all. I've lost one good friend this month and learned that another's cancer has returned (inoperable, even). It's just not worth getting so mad because our opinions differ. I have another friend who buried his grandmother the other day, and his wife's in hospitalized. These are things worth getting passionate about, these are worth the energy and effort you're putting into convincing us that there is no possibility a Niger can be kept in a reef system. I know folks who have broken every rule of fishkeeping I have (also garnered through not insignificant experience), yet they succeed! I've broken the rules of others, yet I succeed. Can we at least agree that there is as much a measure of art to this hobby as there is science? And if not, how about just agreeing, in a friendly way, to disagree?

You're not going to get many folks to come to your way of thinking (especially those with experience otherwise) by calling anyone moronic, or declaring that their opinions are stupid.
Honey vs. vinegar, yeah?

 

[Minh Nguyen]

.
...
I have never seen a niger trigger before and I am thinking of adding one to my reef tank, can anyone post a link or refernce to a book that says a niger trigger is reef safe?

It all come down to what you mean by reef safe isn't it?
I would not put them in my reef but I know that they won't eat any of my corals, which is the definition of most people for reef safe.
How about you answer this question:
Do you know of any reputable information source that state that Niger Trigger eats corals? Let me say ahead of time that livestock dealers information should not be use here. I am not saying that they, the sellers, give wrong information, but one should not wholly rely on seller information regarding their product.
Minh

 

[jevs]

Hi, I think this is my first post on here so please bear with me.

Black triggers IMO, can be a bit of a problem in reefs and indeed with FO setups. Although each individual fish is different, the general concensus of opinion in the UK is not to risk a black trigger in a reef.

However, I have a stunning blue throat trigger in my reef and it's a model citizen ....great fun and beautifully coloured too. Pink tailed triggers have a similar disposition to the blue throats.

I shall try to put a photo up for mine

Regards

Andy

 

[Anonymous]

Welcome to reefs.org, jevs, and thank you very much for your input. If you do a search on the original poster, you'll see that he has a hind (blue spot grouper) in his reef and needs a suitable companion.

 

[Anonymous]

But all we keep on hearing is about when the niger trigger eats in the wild and the shape of their mouth. Wow that is relevant?????????????????

If my name was Sprung or Delbeck I would have 100 people on this board agreeeing with me, but since I am not these people everyone is finding reasons to disagree with me, even if it makes them wrong.

Hey Zoo,
New day here. Ok, what is the relevance of dentition and jaw structure? Well if you look at a grouper, you know it's not equiped to scrape algae off your glass right? And if you look at a lawnmower blenny, you know it's not going to eat your damsels - fair enough? So, when we look at the dentition of a fish like O. niger we know that it's not equiped to decimate our corals, nor does it do so in the wild. Indeed, it's been observed and documented that O. niger is a zooplankitivore in the wild. In the aquarium, as with many fish, it becomes very opportunistic. However, as our experience has indicated, it doesn't bother corals - which is what many of consider reef safe. You can show me a completely unknown, undescribed fish, and a good percentage of the time I can tell you if it has a chance of bothering inverts or not. Form folows function in the animal kingdom.
So dentition is very relevant. I can look at the dentition of a varanid, or monitor lizard, (another keen interest of mine) and tell you if it would rather eat a frogs, fish and insects, or if it injests snails or turtles for example. Dentition can tell you a lot.
Folks on here are not disagreeing with you because you are not Delbeck or Sprung. I have no problem disagreeing with either of them should I feel it appropreate to do so. Ol Chucky made a post on another forum to the effect that most groupers available are too large for home aquariua, and therefore not suitable for reef tanks. I disagreed with him, stating that many if not most of the species commonly available fall into the 11-16" range. Including most of the hinds (Cephalopholus sp) and even a few of the Epinephelus sp., such as E. ongus, and E. merra. Anyway, I digress. They are not gods, nor is everything that comes from them the absolute truth necessarily.
These people are also not "finding" reasons to disagree with you. Their experiences are not what you read on those websites, that's all. In the end, empirical data wins out every time.
Now, if you need a book or other such reference to believe something, look no further than Scott W. Micheals books. The best references out there for marine fish. You will see that he states O. niger is harmless with corals. Again, that's what we look for when deciding if something is reef safe. Shrimps can be kept, but should be added before the trigger. His books are the first references I've ever come across whith such comprehensive and accurate info.

Let go of the " because I says it on a website, it must be true" thing. It doesn't hold up. There is a modicum of good info, and a ton of bad.

I would pay heed to Seamaidens post above, they are as ever, wise and levelheaded words.

Peace
Jim

 

[Len]

Hey Andy,

Thanks for sharing your experience and a pic of your gorgeous trigger.

 

[Anonymous]

Andy?

 

[Len]

jevs = Andy (read the last lines of his post)

 

[ChrisV]

Hmm you have stated your opinion on this many times, Zoofarmer. I will have to agree with Seamaiden and Jim though. Zoofarmer I think you need to be more open minded. Is it hard for you to beleive that two of the same species trigger behave differently? To me, reef safe means they dont harm my coral.

-ChrisV

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Jevs, and welcome!
Your input is much valued!
There is prevailing opinion that certain fish shouldn't be kept in reefs, and much of it is well founded. Other times I think much of this is due to perception rather than actual observation.
Example, the emperor angel. Not reef safe right? Well, after keeping this fish in FO tanks for years, I have one in a reef now (SPS). Why? Because I kept reading posts from people who have, or who are keeping this fish with success with SPS corals. Scott also says in his book that it should be OK with SPS. Minh has kept several angels that are usually not considered reef safe, yet he's done it with success, as have others. A marine scientist on the other forum keeps a queen angel in his tank, and maintains that they are usually fine! The genus Holocanthus has a reputation for being the WORST with corals! Yet, he does it. There is much to learn still.
Anyway, I put an imperator in my tank, and guess what, he's doing great! (so far...ahem). Anyway, it depends on different factors, and I'm sure some individual niger triggers cause problems (substrate disturbance, etc). They also get large, and need swimming space, so smaller reefs are out of the question. The reasons for not including one in certain setups are basically the reasons Len stated at the beginning of this thread.
Nice blue throat!

Jim

 

[teevee]

As far as triggers go, they are the closest thing to reef-safe you can get.

Incorrect. It is the Xanthichthys genus that is made up of planktavores: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/triggers/xanthichthys/index.htm

Edit - I see someone has already posted this...

 

[Anonymous]

Indeed, teevee, and upon doing further searches within WWM alone, you'll find that there are others who call the Niger "planktivorous" or "zooplanktivorous" as well. As I stated earlier, even there we disagree, we just don't get all heated up about it (talking about crewmembers, not the forums).

 

[TheZooFarmer]

Wow check the link.

http://www.reefs.org/library/compatibility.html


reefs.org has triggerfish listed as incompatible with corals and inverts.

Has anyone found that link for the reef safe niger trigger yet?

 

[Len]

Our fish compatibility chart (one generously donated to us by Marine Depot) is a rule of thumb that generalizes genera and is not species (or subgenus) specific. Please use it accordingly.

 

[Anonymous]

Has anyone found that link for the reef safe niger trigger yet?

Well I'm not about to go searching the net, but Mihn's mention of Scott Michaels assessment along with the anecdotal evidence of numerous successful aquarists indicates that this species may be reef safe, along with the pink-tail and members of Xanthichthys. The niger and pink-tail might eat you snails, which is I think people put them in not reef safe categories. Nothing to fight about!

 

[Anonymous]

:wink:

 

[Minh Nguyen]

My head hurts this afternoon. Initially, I did not know why then it dawn on me. I have smacked my head into a brick wall several times today here on RDO. That is why my head is hurting now. I will to save my head for better things.
Minh

 

[Len]

Hey now, the headbanging isn't due to RDO It's just one member

 

[Anonymous]

I just need to point out that "posting a link" is, in scientific circles, a complete lack of evidence. There are three levels of scientific literature: primary literature--peer reviewed articles in journals; secondary literature--textbooks and the like that are not peer reviewed but are based upon primary literaturewithout necessarily any new research; and...."The Web"--a place where anybody can post anything they want to, whether it's true or not, and without any type of review or scrutinization by others in the field. The fact that 7 of the 8 links you provide are commercial retailers of fish makes me trust their content LESS, not more. www.liveaquaria.com lists ALL their triggers as either "With Caution" or "No" in terms of their reefsafeness, even the ones in the genus Xanthichthys that everyone seems to agree are reefsafe. www.marinedepotlive.com says the same thing with the members of this genus. www.centralpets.com doesn't even know the max size of the fish they're selling, other than that it's "larger than average."
So saying "show me a link" kind of makes me laugh. I challenge you to show me a book that says the Odonus niger is not reef safe. JimM has provided a quote from Scott Michael's book "500 Aquarium Fish" that says they are "harmless to corals."
Here is another, from "Reef Fishes: Volume One" by Scott Michael: "Zooplankton-feeding triggerfishes are best suited for a community setting, and several species can even be housed in reef aquariums."