I THINK I HAVE ICH!!!!

[Terry B]

TheZooFarmer (Jack),

You are asking intelligent and well thought out questions, all of which I have answered before. I don’t know how often that you have read this and other message boards (other web sites) like it the past couple of years, but hyposalinity therapy is a very popular treatment on the other large forums. It is recommended daily on the two largest marine fish disease forums on the Internet (at least the ones with the most traffic that I know of). I happen to be a moderator on one of them and a regular contributor on the other one.

Hyposalinity works very consistently on all marine teleost fish regardless of their size when administered correctly. Freshwater dips may be another matter. Hyposalinity therapy consists of maintaining the salinity at 15ppt or less consistently for a minimum of three weeks. The tomont stage of the parasite is destroyed with this treatment preventing reproduction. Do not use hypo with inverts, live rock, live sand, or sharks. It can be administered in a cycled quarantine tank or right in the display tank provided it does not contain any of the things that I just mentioned. Actually hypo is the safest and most consistently effective treatment to date. I am currently developing a hybrid or new alternative treatment, but the three week bath will still be my treatment of choice.

I am a strong advocate of quarantining all new fish for a minimum of three weeks. The same can be said of every single author of the books I have seen on our hobby. They agree 100% on this and that should tell you a lot. While it is true that a lot of people don’t quarantine, or they do not do it correctly, that does not change the value of doing it. IMO, is should be standard practice for every marine aquarist. BTW, all public aquariums quarantine. If people are not going about quarantine correctly then they should simply learn how, it’s not difficult.

Stress is not a prerequisite to infection with ich. They go to great pains in scientific trials to ensure that the fish are healthy, in a good environment and not unduly stressed. Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate parasite. This means that it does not feed on anything other than live fish and it cannot survive without attaching to a host fish in it’s trophont stage. This is why ich can be eliminated from an aquarium by removing all the fish for a minimum of 30 days. This is generally a safe time-frame.

Ich does not have a dormant stage, but a low level of infection can exist in an aquarium for a period of time. Fish that have been exposed and survived can develop some acquired immunity. When a non-immune fish is added to such a system then that fish often will develop and infection and you will see white spots on it. The population of the parasite will increase because it has found a suitable host. As that population increases the fish with partial immunity may also succumb.

Stress can certainly be a factor, because it does impair immune function, but it is not a requirement for fish to become infected. Actually, fish cannot develop a partial immunity without first becoming infected themselves. Fish can be stressed to the extreme and not get ich if the parasite is not present in the aquarium. IF a low level infection exists in the system, and the fish have some level of partial acquired immunity, then a stress factor can swing the delicate balance in favor of the parasite. Then you would see spots beginning to appear on the fish.

No, the slime coat does not have to be depleted before fish become infected.

Freshwater dips accomplish very little as a treatment for ich. They do cause a lot of stress and you still have to treat with something else. I do not recommend FW dips for ich. They are more helpful with amyloodinium, but don’t cure that either.

Ich really doesn’t have a dormant stage. Tomonts take between 3 and 28 days to hatch so if the fish are treated correctly then it is safe to move them back into a tank that has been fishless after 30 days. I would say that the survival rate of fish treated correctly with hyposalinity and then placed back into the display after that display has been fallow (without fish) for 30 days or more is above 90%. I know people (retailers) that use hypo on large numbers of fish all the time and they report exceptional success. If you are going to use copper then Cupramine is the safest and most effective IMO.

Laboratory conditions do not change the nature of the beast, its life cycle, or what works to kill it. What works in a lab will work in an aquarium.

It is a sad fact that most people do not research the needs of each species of fish PRIOR to purchase and then provide it with the right conditions to thrive. I have been keeping marine aquariums for 30 years and I get discouraged by people like that and the ones that refuse to quarantine until they have killed a lot of fish. Reef fish can remain healthy and live for a very long time in captivity when they are provided with a good diet, a low stress environment and cared for properly in other ways. I cannot overemphasize the importance of continuing to be a student of the hobby and practicing proper quarantine procedures.
Terry B

 

[Terry B]

No Manny, no dormant stage has been found in any study that I am aware of. I have copies of a lot of studies. I would be interested in knowing what the reference is so I can read about it myself. At this point I am highly skeptical.
Terry B

 

[WRASSER]

everyone



i don't have all the answers, not even some of them, but since you are on stress and immune system lets give amanda some info to help prevent some stress in her tank. im going to guess like tempature, salinity, maybe even a grounding probe will reduce the stress levels, acclamating the fish might help. some or all could be a start of a stress free enviroment for healthy fish. (my neon goby use to work hard keeping every one clean, now he eats spectrum and ghost shrimp with everyone :!: )
i know she asked how to get rid of them and everyone did a great job of letting her know, but prevention also helps :wink:



good luck,


wrasser 8)

 

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

Before giving my oppinions I will not two things. First, I too have read several scientific studies on ich (the direct records and papers...not just the exec summary). Second, in my limited time in this hobby I have successfully cured fish or ich, velvet, and gill flukes using only hypo and freshwater dips...I am currently having great success with two clowns that I believe are infected with brooklynella and are improving by the day because of daily freshwater dips. And I have never bought a fish, from LFS or online, that was not infected with something! Call it bad luck...I do...but I have had to deal with it all and I have seen several fish die because of errors I have made early on, and recently in spite of perfect conditions and excellent treatment.

Having said that, I will first point to the fact that copper and hyposalinity both only kill the free swimming stage of the lifecycle and, to a lesser extent, destroy or prevent the developement of the cyst. Copper may increase slime production, although I have not read that before, but that is not why it is a good treatment for ich.

I will also point out the fact that freshwater dips, done properly, will kill ich and many other parasites on the fish's body and in its gills. I can site papers, studies, or experts, but personal experience is one of the best forms of evidence. I have seen fish covered with ich, that looked like they were not going to make it, with a hundred spots on a 3 inch fish...a freshwater dip caused the spots to burst right before my eyes. What was left was little flaps of skin...yes, weakening the fish for other infections, but saving it from the ich. A full spectrum antibiotic should prevent secondary infection while the fish heals. In the dip jar were the tiny parasites.

The problem with FWD is that people don't do them long enough. They get freaked out by the gasping fish lying on its side or trying to jump out. Of course he's pissed...its freshwater! But the dip must last 5 minutes or it's worthless.

As for hyposalinity, it works quite well on even the smallest gobies. I have a firefish that survived two months in 1.009-1.010 SG. This eradicated any ich in the tank and the fish seemed totally fine.

Reading journals is a must for this complicated hoby, but there is so much conflicting information that sometimes you have to try something for yourself.

And as for hospital tanks, they work great! Don't tell begginers not to have a QT or an HT. It might be fine for you not to have one, but I can't live without it. It is a must and without a good extra tank, you can not hope to beat all the diseases trying to make you fail at this.

Manny

 

[TheZooFarmer]

Terry you have said some things I have never heard or read before. The main one being that FW dips are useless. The other being that ick doe not lie dormant in the sandbed for up to 6 months.

But let we quote Bob Fenner and something I have been saying all along.

"All diseases are to degrees environmentally mediated. That is, the physical, chemical and social make-up, foods/feeding and a myriad of other factors directly and indirectly dispose an organism to/from health to disease. Many systems teeter on being just about parasite free, though possessing latent infestations of parasites. With slight changes in water quality, nutrition or social interaction, this balance can be tipped either way."

Now I have recently read both you and sea maiden talking about how public aquarium's quarantine all of their livestock. But what I have not heard is how large these quarantine systems are and what percentage of fish they lose. You have to compare apples to apples and not just say that since an public aquarium which has hundreds of thousands of gallons does it so do you. Most public aquariums have ozonizers also, why aren't we all running them then?

Now can you please tell me what equipment I would need to properly quarantine a medium sized yellow tang of 5" before I place him in my main display.

Now even without answering I am willing to bet the tank size you recommend for quarantine is probably the same size if not larger then most of the tanks readers of these boards have setup as their main display.

I still think we have been treating the symptom and not the cause. With your knowledge and experience you should tell the posters which encounter ick that the ick has been brought on through environmental stress and has no business being in their current setup.

If I get time today I will go back some pages and post every ick thread I find. And like I said earlier 99.999999% of them will be poor mismanaged setups the fish do not belong in.

I am patiently awaiting your answers, Jack

 

[TheZooFarmer]

Manny, great post, I just wish I read it before I made my last post. But I will pose the same question to you that I have posted to Terry.

Now can you please tell me what equipment I would need to properly quarantine a medium sized yellow tang of 5" before I place him in my main display.

Let me add both with your clowns and firefish they KEY was catching and treating the disease early. ESPECIALLY with brooklynella. We would actually treat most all captive caught clowns for brooklynella (with formalin) as soon as they came in to the store.

Your experiences with the FW dip has been identical to mine. Dip the fish have the parasite explode and now be prepared to treat a secondary bacterial infection. And the fish must be placed in a sterile ick free environment. Depending on the strength of the fish I could have placed it in a system with low levels of copper.

Regards, Jack

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with much of what you said Zoo. Unfortunately though, you do not need a poor mismanaged setup, you need only to introduce an infected fish to almost any setup and you have a problem. I've seen it many times. Systems can and do become ich free, mine are.

Fish can be quarantined in much smaller containers than what would be recommended for long term living conditions. I'm sure you know this. Myself, I use tanks with live sand, live rock, macros, and even a few corals. I don't medicate these tanks, they are just for quarantine and are running all the time. I think barebones tanks just stress the fish more. A 50 gallon tank setup as such is more than sufficent to quarantien a 5" tang. A hospital tank for hypo is similar, minus the corals and live sand.
Nowdays I just use my 7 gallon nano for quarantine, which limits me to acquiring small fish, but that's ok. I did quarantine a small yellow tang (2") in that tank, and did just great.

Cheers
Jim

 

[Anonymous]

That is a great question to pose...are you asking what would be the ideal QT for a 5" yellow tang, or what would be ok for him if he was healthy to begin with?

Because my tank is only 75 gallons (Hah...only...as if 75 gallons and 100 pounds of rock is a tiny little tank :roll: , but it may be to many here), I have never had the pleasure of QTing a fish that large.

I would say he would be comfortable in a dimmly lit, well cycled, 20 gallon with a small power filter (for particles), a sponge filter (for bio filtration), plenty of airation, and several large PVC pipes to hide in. Not the nicest looking set up, but the bare bottom and PVC should make for easy cleaning and syphoning of any cysts developing on the bottom. As long as water quality was good, I see no reason why this would be any worse for him than just throwing him in your reef

He may not be very happy to be in such a small tank, but as long as he is in a low traffic area of the house, he should not be too stressed. Of course this can only work with a fish that is eating well and is not already overly weakened.

This will give you the chance to see any disease in it's early stages and you won't have to stress him by tearing your tank apart catching him.

That's how I have cured fish that would have died in my reef. They didn't GET sick in a QT that had never had fish in it before...they brought whatever they have with them. The brooklynella is going away with just freshwater and hypo...FOR NOW...but I have formalin on hand just in case.

On that note, what is the best way to use formalin? I have been afraid to add it to the tank because the bio-filtration is so great right now and I have been afraid to dip the fish in it for fear of using too much.

Thanks,
Manny

 

[Terry B]

Wrasser,
You have a good point. We should try to help people improve the conditions in which they keep their fish.

Manny,
You said:
“Having said that, I will first point to the fact that copper and hyposalinity both only kill the free swimming stage of the lifecycle and, to a lesser extent, destroy or prevent the developement of the cyst. Copper may increase slime production, although I have not read that before, but that is not why it is a good treatment for ich.”

True copper does kill the free swimming or theront stage. However, hyposalinity kills the parasite before it hatches from the tomont stage. It works by destroying tomonts before they can hatch, effectively interrupting the life cycle of the parasite. It is true that copper causes hyper-production of mucus.

It is true that FW dips kill some types of parasites. It can even kill trophonts which are not deeply imbedded. The problem is that many of the trophonts will be imbedded under a layer of skin making it impossible for the FW to get to them. This means that you cannot cure ich with FW dips and another treatment has to be used. Like you said, hyposalinity works very well.
I really haven’t seen much in the way of conflicting information in the journals concerning ich. Perhaps you could point some of it out? There are several different strains of ich so they vary in size and the number of theronts each tomont produces. The difference between isolates are mostly minor and don’t make a difference as far as treatment goes.

BTW, I also have to recommend formalin as a treatment for Brooklynella. If you do a google search on my name, Terry Bartelme, you should be able to locate a SeaScope article that I wrote about using formaldehyde. You can also find several other articles that I wrote by checking several pages of a google search.

Jack,
With all due respect to Mr. Fenner, he is not an aquatic medicine specialist. I get my information from scientists and professors of aquatic medicine. This also includes personal communications with both. Then I have 30 years of experience. Having said that, there is nothing in the quote that I would disagree with. BTW, Fenner has listed me as one of his references when writing his own article.

You have to understand that all pathogens, including parasites, do not behave similarly. Some pathogens are facultative or opportunistic while others are obligate. If you generalize too widely then it becomes misleading or inaccurate.

Not only do all public aquariums practice quarantine, every single author of a book that I have ever seen on our hobby suggests that all aquarists quarantine. You know that Robert Fenner is a strong advocate of quarantine. I believe that you are asking the wrong question. It’s not how many are lost because of quarantine. I can tell you that you can multiply that by several times for the number of fish that are lost by a failure to quarantine.

Mannys probably on the right tract for a decent quarantine set up. As for stress, I am also well informed on that subject. I have detailed this very complicated subject in about 10 published articles. I understand it very well, and any minor inconvenience that a little confinement stress may cause is nothing compared to the stress caused on fish by failing to give them a period of time in isolation to recover from the stress of handling, capture and transport. They need time to adjust to you, captivity and a new diet. Disease and aggression from other fish are both stressors which can be avoided with the proper treatment and quarantine period.

Most people in this hobby could have a better setup and conditions for their fish regardless of whether or not they are currently battling disease.
Terry B

 

[Len]

marked for archiving

 

[StevenPro]

I just wanted to interject a moment about quarantine. I just heard Anthony Calfo state it this way and I thought it was brilliant and succinct, "Not quarantining your fish is like playing Russian roulette. In the end, nobody wins. Some just get to play longer."

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, so much to address here, but I would like to speak to ZF's query regarding q/t's in p.a.'s. My experience is only with one, the Long Beach Aquarium of the Pacific, and in one area, the "coral lab" (tropical q/t and holding area). There are several holding systems, no ozonizers, several HUGE foam fractionators. They range in size from approximately 100 gallons to several 3,000 gal. tubs linked together. There is a separate system for inverts, corals, etc. Losses are very low, in the single digit percentages during my time there. There is a full lab on site, copper is the prophylactic treatment of choice for the bulk of the bonies, excepting (of course) frogfishes and butterflies.

I would go into more detail, but I have site work to get to, and I am also off to VOTE!

 

[Anonymous]

What does that mean Len?

Hi Steven...good quote.

Hi Sea-mommy ...voting for Arnold???

Read your article on formalin Terry...Thanks ...If my FWDs don't cure them, I'll follow the formalin method.

As for the conflicting information, we have a prime example here. I wish I kept records of what I read, but I know this was in a scientific journal. It stated that hypo would prevent the developement of the ich cyst, but that if SG went up, it would be possible for the cyst to finish developing. That seemed counterintuitive to me because the cyst is a cell that must interact with the surrounding environment to survive. Likewise, I read somewhere that copper would not kill the cyst and other places that it would....This is why I frequent forums and ask questions over and over again...it's wonderful to be able to benefit from the experience of people who have been at this for 30 years, are at the cutting edge of research and have worked in public aquariums (like sea-mommy)!!!

Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Jeez, sometimes I can't tear myself away from this place. No! Not foh Ahnohld! I am voting for McClintock (which really kicks at my Libertarian arse doncha know), he's the man with a plan, and he's the only candidate who has not only promised to not raise taxes, but has actually outlined how he's going to eliminate the deficit. He is also the only candidate who has behaved with true class, something I haven't seen in my entire voting life.

 

[Anonymous]

I just wanted to interject a moment about quarantine. I just heard Anthony Calfo state it this way and I thought it was brilliant and succinct, "Not quarantining your fish is like playing Russian roulette. In the end, nobody wins. Some just get to play longer."

Exactly. Something I've tried to get across to the "I've never quarantined and never had a problem" crowd.

Jim

 

[TheZooFarmer]

I think I am being misunderstood.

I think quarantining is useful and necessary when PERFORMED PROPERLY. This is why I asked Sea Maiden and Terry what they knew about public aquariums Q-systems. I am trying to show the size of these Q-systems.

But like I said earlier, how do you tell a hobbyist they need to buy another setup whether it be a 29 gallon tank or a 55 gallon tank when they already have a 55 or 75? And even if you did tell them how many would listen? Like I have said repeatedly 99.999999% of the time when an ick post is made it is caused by user/hobbyist error.

And once again like I have stated earlier most all of the time these Q-systems are setup poorly and are to small and they actually do more harm then good.

Terry maybe I missed your answer but how do you explain a tank full of fish and only one of them have ick? Surely you have seen this. Why hasn't the ick hosted on all of the fish if it is not stress induced?

Lets talk about a Sohal tang. How would you quarantine this fish. First off we know it needs a large tank to live in at least 7ft but I would do no less then 8ft. How do you quarantine this fish? What are the odds of it living 3 weeks in a 29 or 55 or 75? Does the fishes chances increase with the tank size?

Now that being said and me observing a tank full of fish with only 1 ick infected fish I would be more likely to add the Sohal to the display immediately. This is of course, after it has been observed to be eating and otherwise all around healthy in the LFS.

Regards, Jack

 

[Len]

What does that mean Len?

All it means is this thread will be archived for prosperity. There's plenty of good information here and putting it in our archives will allow more visibility to this thread.

 

[StevenPro]

If all a hobbyist has is a 55 gallon main display tank, then they won't have (or should not have) anything that they cannot quarantine in a 10 or 20 gallon aquarium for a month or so. If you have a 200 plus gallon aquarium that you have invested thousands of dollars in, what is a couple of hundred for a 55 gallon quarantine.

For filtration, I prefer fully cycled sponge filters. These can be kept in your sump. If you don't have a sump, a small hang-on power filter with one of those biowheels works well. Again, this should be kept running on your display tank so it is ready when you need it. If you are concerned about nitrate production, don't worry. We are talking about a matter of scale here. One small sponge filter or biowheel should not produce a significant amount of nitrate in the display.

Lastly, why one fish out of a whole tank develops visible signs of Cryptocaryon while the others don't could be because of natural, acquired immunity. If you wish, I just wrote two articles on treating Marine Ich. They are both available on Reefkeeping. Beyond what I cover, there is an extensive list of referenced that could lead you to additional information.

 

[TheZooFarmer]

Ahhhh Steven I could not agree more.

A tang/trigger/non pygmy angel belongs in nothing smaller then a 75 (I am being nice) and most often then not, depending on what type of tang/trigger/angel we are talking about, the tank size might in fact have to be much larger then the previously mentioned 75. Now here we go back to my 99.999999% statement where ick is caused from a stress related environment due to improper housing of the fish.

Now Steven you being another knowledgeable author on this subject. What percentage of ick breakouts do you attribute to a stress related environment? What percentage of healthy fish, in a healthy stress free environment succumb to ick? Like I have stated earlier ick rarely kills healthy fish in an healthy stress free environment.

I would like to see this experiment. Take 12 or 21 of a identical single ("ick magnet") fish and place them in a large system for a month or so. Plumb this large system with 12 or 21 smaller individual systems in 3 different sizes during that month. Now place all of these fish in the smaller individual systems and shut off the central plumbing. I would bet anything that the ick and mortality rate will be much higher as you get smaller in tank size. Has such a study been done? And of course all other things would have to be equal and there would also have to be ick in this system but only in a dormant state.

BTW you mentioned a cycled sponge filter. Now you do realize that very few people with 55 gallon tanks have sumps. Now I am unsure of how many nitrates a small single biowheel puts out, but the problem I see is that the average 55 gallon tank owner already has a nitrate problem due to poor filtration, poor skimming, and high bio-load.

 

[Terry B]

Manny said:

“As for the conflicting information, we have a prime example here. I wish I kept records of what I read, but I know this was in a scientific journal. It stated that hypo would prevent the developement of the ich cyst, but that if SG went up, it would be possible for the cyst to finish developing. That seemed counterintuitive to me because the cyst is a cell that must interact with the surrounding environment to survive. Likewise, I read somewhere that copper would not kill the cyst and other places that it would”

These statements are true and do not conflict. Hyposalinity does kill the parasite in the tomont stage. It is also true that the salinity must be kept at a therapeutic level or the life cycle of the parasite will continue. Hyposalinity does not prevent trophonts from maturing on the fish. They must mature and fall off of the host before hypo takes effect. No treatment kills the parasite at every stage of development, at least not any treatment that would not also kill the fish.
Copper does not kill the parasite at all stages either. Copper is effective at killing the theront or free swimming stage. I don’t see any conflict in either of those statements, they just needed some clarifying.
Terry B