I THINK I HAVE ICH!!!!

[Terry B]

Jack,
Does the fact that most people do not have the correct lighting intensity and spectrum for their tanks mean that we should not tell them how to improve it? Just because people quarantine incorrectly or not at all doesn’t make it any less important that we tell them how valuable and” crucial it is to learn how to quarantine properly.

“Terry maybe I missed your answer but how do you explain a tank full of fish and only one of them have ick? Surely you have seen this. Why hasn't the ick hosted on all of the fish if it is not stress induced?”

Let me give you a common scenario for how this can happen. The fish combated an ich infection some time in the past, say two months previous. These fish survived because they developed some partial immunity. The parasite was not eliminated from the aquarium because they were not treated with an effective method. A combination of a partially effective treatment and some acquired immunity reduced the infection to a sub clinical level (generally a few trophonts exist under the gill cover out of sight in partially immune fish). Only fish that have been infected and survived can have acquired immunity to a pathogen. Then a non-immune fish is added to that system. Suddenly, the one non-immune fish is infected. Sometimes this will result in a full blown infection as the population level of the parasite multiplies in the aquarium because it has found a suitable host. Sometime the one fish exhibiting white spots will also develop a partial immunity and the infection returns to a sub clinical level. In this case, if the fish are weakened by stress, resulting in reduced immune function, and the parasite is currently in that system at a low level the infection may worsen and you begin to see spots on other fish.

“Lets talk about a Sohal tang. How would you quarantine this fish. First off we know it needs a large tank to live in at least 7ft but I would do no less then 8ft. How do you quarantine this fish? What are the odds of it living 3 weeks in a 29 or 55 or 75? Does the fishes chances increase with the tank size?”

Yes, I would quarantine this fish and not put the other fish at risk. The stress of confinement is minor compared to the stress of infection. If we were talking about an aquarium so small that the fish could barely turn around in then it would be more of a factor. If the water quality is maintained and the tank is cycled the fish has a very high likelihood of surviving the quarantine period. However, Sohal tangs are not the hardiest of species so there chances of long term survival are less than some other species regardless of whether or not they are quarantined. You can only increase their chances and protect the established stock by quarantining them.

“Now that being said and me observing a tank full of fish with only 1 ick infected fish I would be more likely to add the Sohal to the display immediately.”

Did someone say Russian roulette? I have used that analogy for many years.

They use only healthy fish in clinical studies and they ALL get infected when exposed to ich, unless they have previously survived an infection within the past six months and developed some level of acquired immunity.

Terry B

 

[WRASSER]

ok guys,


with all this knowldge being thrown around, will a U/V light help :?: and i just mean help kill the parasites. ZK maybe this will help in your experiment. i have a 150 set up for display. i had a bad ICH problem. what i did, i went to my LFS. i asked questions and i came up with my own combo. i bought a protien skimmer, U/V light, and a grounding probe and i keep my tempature at around 78f ( with a heating probe) and i keep my SG at about 1.025, people might think that is a little high, but that is what the ATLANTIC is at, i also take more time acclimating at a slower rate for this reason. i do not have a quarantine tank. with that said, i am ICH free and can put a new fish in my 150 diplay with out worring about ICH, why because it's a stress free enviroment :!:
now, maybe i am lucky with all this and i get lucky when i buy a fish and put it in my display and i am lucky that my display fish don't get ICH and i'm just a lucky guy, or i'm doing something write i really don't know. and really all i am doing is giving my knowldge of what i did that works for me. maybe people can work from that.
i hope that i helped a little :wink:




good luck,




wrasser 8)

 

[TheZooFarmer]

Terry I do not understand. If you are adding the sohal to a stress free environment where the established fish have this acquired immunity you talk about, where is the risk? Or should I say how much of a risk is it?

You say

"The parasite was not eliminated from the aquarium because they were not treated with an effective method."

If this is true then once again 99% of aquariums have ick in some stage therefore the most important factor is promoting a STRESS FREE ENVIRONMENT.

But let me ask you this Terry, what percentage of people properly treat and eliminate ick from the home aquarium? I consider myself an expert, and I know very few of my customers that knew as much as me or more then me. And if what your saying is true, even I did not know how to properly eliminate ick from the aquarium. Now these percentage of people whatever it might be, is it not safe to say since there is ick in their aquarium at some stage, at this point promoting a stress free environment is CRUCIAL for keeping an ick outbreak from occurring?

 

[Anonymous]

er- just the act of moving a fish is stressful? :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Once the parasite count get's to a certain critical level, even fish with a partial acquired immunity will be overcome. It's just a matter of time in most cases. There are certain fish that can hold out longer than others, dragonetes come to mind.

The parasite was not eliminated from the aquarium because they were not treated with an effective method."

If this is true then once again 99% of aquariums have ick in some stage therefore the most important factor is promoting a STRESS FREE ENVIRONMENT.

This is not what Terry is saying. Even without treatment, in a display tank with long term fish that have have some immunity, the parasite will cease to exist after a period of time if the infection remains at a subacute level. This is because the parasite count gradually decreases since the free swimming stage cannot find a host, despite the fact that fish are present in the system. It's critical to NOT add any new fish for a period of some months until the pathogen has left the system.


Cheers
Jim

 

[WRASSER]

amanda, i really hope you can learn what you need out of this :wink:



good luck


wrasser 8)

 

[Anonymous]

Once the parasite count get's to a certain critical level, even fish with a partial acquired immunity will be overcome. It's just a matter of time in most cases. There are certain fish that can hold out longer than others, dragonetes come to mind.

The parasite was not eliminated from the aquarium because they were not treated with an effective method."

If this is true then once again 99% of aquariums have ick in some stage therefore the most important factor is promoting a STRESS FREE ENVIRONMENT.

This is not what Terry is saying. Even without treatment, in a display tank with long term fish that have have some immunity, the parasite will cease to exist after a period of time if the infection remains at a subacute level. This is because the parasite count gradually decreases since the free swimming stage cannot find a host, despite the fact that fish are present in the system. It's critical to NOT add any new fish for a period of some months until the pathogen has left the system.


Cheers
Jim

is it not possible for a system to maintain a permanent, either low level, or 'sub clinical' ongoing 'infection'?

 

[Anonymous]

Permanenet? No.
Extended? - yes.

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

double post

 

[Anonymous]

how long of an extended period, assuming after last fish addition ?

i ask since i've seen recurring 'outbreaks', mebbe 2-3 cysts on one fish, well up to a yr after no more fish were added to a reef tank, at 1-2 'outbreaks'/yr

 

[Anonymous]

I honestly have no idea. Terry would be better at commenting on this. I would look to your husbandry pracatices, setup, stocking level, aquascaping, etc. To minimize stress, as Zoo indicated above.
Also, make sure you are not just seeing sand in the slime coat. This happens a lot.

 

[Anonymous]

I honestly have no idea. Terry would be better at commenting on this. I would look to your husbandry pracatices, setup, stocking level, aquascaping, etc. To minimize stress, as Zoo indicated above.
Also, make sure you are not just seeing sand in the slime coat. This happens a lot.

no problem w/the husbandry practices, i assure you, unless you count for keeping 2 tangs in a 75 'low'(18"x18"x5') as automatically being bad husbandry :wink:

relatively low to moderate stocking level-nice healthy soft corals,lps's, and regularly spawning gregory's :wink: , among other small fish.

i'm addressing the time frame/span of low level/sub clinical ich infection, here :wink:

according to what i've gleaned, no fish should have been able to 'outbreak' at all, if nothing was added to the tank for at least a yr.

my observations aside-it seems counter-intuitive to me that ich cannot keep cycling at extremely low levels in any closed system ad infinitum :?

 

[Keli'i]

I've used the quarantine methods described by TerryB for many years. My company designs, builds, and often maintains large marine exhibits from 700 to 1.4 million gallons which are primarily flow-through, though most in the 700 to 4000 gallon range are closed systems. We have 4', 8', and 10' x 3 ea. quarantine tanks set-up for hyposalinity treatment. All fish go through this.The treatment consists of lowering the salinity to 14.2ppt over the course of 48hrs., and a gradual temperature elevation over the same period to 83oF. We maintain this for 24 days. This method failed only once. Years ago we accidently allowed the salinity to go to 17ppt on around day 19-20 and thought it wouldn't affect the results. We were wrong, Cryp. was still present by day 24. Our mortality rate is less than 2% with this method. We've also used the 7 day formalin bath method with excellent results which involves a 50min. bath on day 1,3,5,and7. Following each bath, the fish are transfered to a separate clean/sterile tank. Uronema will survive this treatment so we do a skin scrape on a few fish after day 7. If any are visible we do another 7 day treatment of freshwater dips instead of formalin. Short term mortality is between about 1-2% with this method but longer term ( within 2 months) motality rises to 4-5%so this method is not used much and only in special cases. The real light at the end of the tunnel is the fact that a couple of scientist here have recieved a federal grant to develop a vaccine for Cryptocaryon. We have been providing them with data and information from our systems to help with this cause. We have also learned that depending on were the Cryp. comes from, it may have a tolerance for salinities down to 10ppt. Tropical islands or bays that have a high influx of fresher groundwater tend to support these hyposalinity tolerant strains. These methods can be argued over, but for us, it is the simplest and most effective/efficient method that has consistenly worked to date. Many other large private and public aquariums also use these methods or slight variations thereof.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, great information you've added here, Keli'i. Welcome to reefs.org. I'm amazed a federal grant has been garnered, that is quite the feat.

Have the different strains of Cryptocaryon been described? Are they entirely different species, or subspecies of C. irritans?

 

[Terry B]

Jack asked:

“Terry I do not understand. If you are adding the sohal to a stress free environment where the established fish have this acquired immunity you talk about, where is the risk? Or should I say how much of a risk is it?”

The risk is that the sohal tang does share the acquired immunity that the other fish enjoy and stress is NOT a prerequisite to infection. This means that moving the tang into a system that has a subclinical infection is very likely to result in the tang breaking out with white spots. No stress required.

The percentage of people that treat ich correctly or quarantine doesn’t matter, we are talking about how to do things right. However, yes stress is a factor in maintaining the delicate balance between a low level infection and a full-blown outbreak. Acquired immunity only becomes a factor post infection. I guess you could say that stress is only a factor when the fish have some level of immunity.

Vitz,
The period of time that a low level infection can be sustained is not well studied. I can tell you that scientist have a difficult time sustaining a population of cryptocatyon irritans for future use. You are right Vitz, there appears to be some limit to how long a low level infection can be sustained. We just don’t know how long that is.

Kelii,
Thanks for your imput. I am aware that the geographical, temperature and salinity ranges for Cryptocaryon is expanding. Some highly aberrant strains have been discovered in Taiwan. They found an isolate in a pond in Chiayi in a salinity of 5ppt! However, I have yet to hear of any reports of it in the aquarium industry. The potential for such a highly aberrant strain to infect tropical fish imported for the aquarium industry certainly exists. Let’s keep our fingers crossed that it does not happen. In the meanwhile, I am currently working on a 6,000+ word report about this very subject. I will be reporting it in a series of articles in the near future. In the series, I will detail a hybrid or new treatment to counteract such an aberrant strain that can also be used as an alternate to conventional hyposalinity therapy.

BTW, I have been advocating that all teleost reef fish be routinely treated with hyposalinity during the initial quarantine period. Even if the fish are free of parasites hyposaline conditions will improve survival rates by alleviating the hydromineral or osmotic disturbance that is an inherent part of stress in fish.
Terry B

 

[Terry B]

Seamaiden,
Several different strains have been reported, but they have been classified as varients and not as speperate species, at least to this point. In the past all strains could be destroyed with hyposalinity. We just have to keep our fingers crossed that as the parasite is adapting that we don't see such strains become widespread.
Scientists have been working to develop a vaccination for Cryptocaryon irritans for years. I think they have had some success with freshwater ick. There is a lot of money invested in fish mariculture so this is where the money for research on Cryptocaryon and other pathogens comes from. Let's hope they succeed with something that can benefit our hobby.
Terry B

 

[TheZooFarmer]

Terry you are far more experienced and knowledgeable then me on ick and fish disease in general. But I still do not understand why you disregard stress as a main cause/factor for ick outbreaks.

From my experience as a LFS manager I can not tell you how many customers would have an outbreak due to an environmental change.

I can remember one customer who had a healthy small tank ( I think it was a 37) with a pair of small clowns, a blenny, flame angel, and some neon gobies. Needless to say that one day he had an ick outbreak. Well I asked all the right questions and finally diagnosed the cause being a large water change (15-20%) with water that was at room temp and not tank temp. Now do you not attribute a case like that to stress?

And are you saying that if all of those fish were treated properly with hyposalinity then ick would have never been an issue?

With all of this knowledge why isn't the proper technique for hyposalinity and quarantine tanks common knowledge?

Maybe Reefs.org should start a fish disease forum and have you as a moderator. You can then post stickys to all of the pertinent information on treating the more common diseases. Not only would it allow posters to have a direct link to a person(s) with the answers they need, but it would remove some of the duplicate threads that clutter up the other forums?

 

[Terry B]

Jack,
I am not sure how to say this other than what I have previously stated. I did not say that stress is never a factor. What I said is that fish do not have to be stressed to become infected. Perfectly healthy fish that have not developed some acquired immunity because of a previous challenge with the parasite can get infected without being stressed. If the tank contains Cryptocaryon irritans (which is not always the case. Systems and fish can be free of the parasite) and the fish have some level of partial immunity then a stressful event can tip the scales in favor of the parasite.

I would say that knowledge about quarantining and hyposalinity is pretty widespread by now. Just pick up any book on marine aquarium keeping and you are bound to find a section on quarantine. Some of the more recent books do talk about hyposalinity and if you visit the most active marine fish disease forums on the Internet you will find a lot of people that are familar with hyposalinity and that have used it. Hypo is not a secret anymore, but there isn't much in the way of profit from selling a product when it is promoted.

Thanks for the suggestion about a disease forum. However, I already moderate one active disease forum and regularly participate on another. You can find me anytime on the disease forum at www.saltwaterfish.com. I visit Reefs.org as often as time allows and I do write for Advanced Aquarist online magazine, which is sponsored by Reefs.org.
Take care,
Terry B

 

[Anonymous]

Terry, so, as I understand you, at this point what are being described (variants) are all C. irritans, but as subspecies, yes? Which would mean (in my limited knowledge/understanding) that there are no significant taxonomical differences, but differences in survivability in differing environs?

I am aware of the research regarding aquaculture, did much searching on this looking for solutions for our poor koi, unfortunately, I discovered that, in the case of furunculosis at least, we are actually talking about different pathogens entirely (species dependent). This meant that what works for salmonids wouldn't work for my cyprinids, which left me back at square one. I'm wondering if this will be the case here, as well.

 

[StevenPro]

Seamaiden,
Stoskopf's "Fish Medicine" has pretty good coverage of diseases affecting Koi.