A
Anonymous
Guest
Thank you, I'll look for it (though my mother really had no business buying koi for a 250 gallon pond).
I THINK I HAVE ICH!!!!
- Thread starter awigpot
- Start date
Terry you say
"The risk is that the sohal tang does share the acquired immunity that the other fish enjoy and stress is NOT a prerequisite to infection. This means that moving the tang into a system that has a subclinical infection is very likely to result in the tang breaking out with white spots. No stress required."
How can you say that moving a fish is not a stressful event? If I was a fish I can not think of much else that would be more stressful.
"I would say that knowledge about quarantining and hyposalinity is pretty widespread by now."
But let me ask you this. What percentage of people that are involved in this hobby practice the proper quarantining and hyposalinity practices you speak of? I personally do not know a single person (including myself) who does.
This is why I preach and practice giving the fish a stress free environment so they can rid themselves of ick on their own. Which goes back to a my previous statement of "ick does not kill healthy stress free fish".
So for the people that read this board and this thread
len
sea maiden
jimm
wrasser
vitz
and everyone else
how many of you practice these procedures terry speaks of. I am talking the proper 3 week hyposalinty quarantining in a separate tank.
And this will lead to my last question for terry. If we have established that most all people do not practice the proper quarantining and hyposalinity treatments you speak of, how important does giving the fish a stress free environment become?
"The risk is that the sohal tang does share the acquired immunity that the other fish enjoy and stress is NOT a prerequisite to infection. This means that moving the tang into a system that has a subclinical infection is very likely to result in the tang breaking out with white spots. No stress required."
How can you say that moving a fish is not a stressful event? If I was a fish I can not think of much else that would be more stressful.
"I would say that knowledge about quarantining and hyposalinity is pretty widespread by now."
But let me ask you this. What percentage of people that are involved in this hobby practice the proper quarantining and hyposalinity practices you speak of? I personally do not know a single person (including myself) who does.
This is why I preach and practice giving the fish a stress free environment so they can rid themselves of ick on their own. Which goes back to a my previous statement of "ick does not kill healthy stress free fish".
So for the people that read this board and this thread
len
sea maiden
jimm
wrasser
vitz
and everyone else
how many of you practice these procedures terry speaks of. I am talking the proper 3 week hyposalinty quarantining in a separate tank.
And this will lead to my last question for terry. If we have established that most all people do not practice the proper quarantining and hyposalinity treatments you speak of, how important does giving the fish a stress free environment become?
I don't treat with hypo as a matter of course, I quarantine at normal salinity levels. If I see a problem, then I treat with hypo in a hospital tank. This has been necessary only a very few times. The LFS I purchase my fish from runs hypo, copper, and UV in their system. I've seen very few problems in their system. However I learned my lesson about quarantining the hard way some years ago. I lost everything due to a foolish introduction. This included several "healthy stress free fish" Only a scooter blenny and small basslet surived.
It only takes once.
I know folks who quarantine, and I know folks who have yet to learn the hard lesson.
Doing things the correct way is not contigent upon how many people refuse to do it, is it? :wink:
Back to the Russian Roulette analogy.
Jim
It only takes once.
I know folks who quarantine, and I know folks who have yet to learn the hard lesson.
Doing things the correct way is not contigent upon how many people refuse to do it, is it? :wink:
Back to the Russian Roulette analogy.
Jim
thanks for the answer jim
So what you said was that you do not use the proper hypo techniques from the start. Now when you do choose to hypo is it for a full 3 weeks the way terry describes?
Now jim how many people do you know uses hypo never, 50%, or 100% of the time?
My point is that since nearly nobody practices hyposalinity a stress free environment is the most important factor in limiting ick infections.
What would you say about that statement jim?
So what you said was that you do not use the proper hypo techniques from the start. Now when you do choose to hypo is it for a full 3 weeks the way terry describes?
Now jim how many people do you know uses hypo never, 50%, or 100% of the time?
My point is that since nearly nobody practices hyposalinity a stress free environment is the most important factor in limiting ick infections.
What would you say about that statement jim?
The very few times I've had to use hypo, I went between 2 and 4 weeks. Just depending on my confidence level in that particular fish.
Here is the catch, maybe the fish you add isn't stressed, and is nonsymptomatic. It acts as a carrier, the pathogen is has still been introduced into the system and can be contracted by any fish at that point.
I would agree with this, with the qualifier that the person refused to quarantine or treat with hypo as you said.
Jim
Here is the catch, maybe the fish you add isn't stressed, and is nonsymptomatic. It acts as a carrier, the pathogen is has still been introduced into the system and can be contracted by any fish at that point.
I would agree with this, with the qualifier that the person refused to quarantine or treat with hypo as you said.
Jim
jim correct me if I am wrong but I have always been under the impression that in order for ick to attack, the fish's immune system has to be lowered and their slime coating has to be depleted.
I do not see how adding a fish with a low level infectiion, or even a high level infection to a healthy stress free environment could cause the other healthy happy fish to break out. This is why I keep on saying that you can have a tank full of fish with only 1 infected fish.
I do not see how adding a fish with a low level infectiion, or even a high level infection to a healthy stress free environment could cause the other healthy happy fish to break out. This is why I keep on saying that you can have a tank full of fish with only 1 infected fish.
Doesnt the addition of a new fish put some stress on a tank quite often? Even the least agressive new addition can freak out the established residents of the tank.
I have seen fish break out in ich everytime you reach in to clean the glass.
I had to take my tank down, move it and reassemble it and never got an ich outbreak. 5 min after everything was running and the fish were in, they were all out looking for food.
I have seen fish break out in ich everytime you reach in to clean the glass.
I had to take my tank down, move it and reassemble it and never got an ich outbreak. 5 min after everything was running and the fish were in, they were all out looking for food.
fishinchick if done properly, an addition of a new fish can even go unnoticed by the already present fish
with that being said it is impossible to do in a cramped small tank, which unfortunately most of the people in the hobby have
if you have seen a fish break out in ick everytime you clean the glass there are much bigger underlying problems that would cause the ick outbreak and the glass cleaning is merely the final catalyst
with that being said it is impossible to do in a cramped small tank, which unfortunately most of the people in the hobby have
if you have seen a fish break out in ick everytime you clean the glass there are much bigger underlying problems that would cause the ick outbreak and the glass cleaning is merely the final catalyst
TheZooFarmer":1v5ab8zx said:
The addition of a new fish will always stress those around it, they compete for food, territory even the increased bio load on the tank is going to put some stress on the fish. However if you take care, this stress can be very minimal and pass unnoticed to the hobbyist. I agree that there is something seriously wrong with you tank if your fish get ich just because you clean the glass.
Why did you pull you tank apart? The ich can't live in the tank with no fish, so you should just leave no fish in there for 6 weeks and quarantine all fish that come into your tank for 6 weeks. A lot simpler than tearing a reef apart.fishinchick":3o1jj5ar said:
zoo your statement is very vague and at parts just wrong. You can not make a blanket statement like that because nothing is that simple
If I have a cycled mature 180 with 3 fish do you think an addition of a neon goby will cause stress due to an increased bioload? If in that same tank the 3 fish are an angel, tang, and trigger, do you think the addition of a mandarin will cause stress due to the competition of food? Who will the mandarin be competing with? If I was to add a cleaner wrasse to a tank that has an outbreak of ick do you think this addition will add stress, or will the ick infected fish welcome the cleaner wrasse knowing what it will do (hopefully)? Will the cleaner wrasse be stressed or will it immediately head to the buffet?
Can you please describe us how to "take care"?
And zoo how do you add a fish to your tank?
jim but I have seen tanks with multiple tangs and still only one would be infected with ick. Are you going to attribute that to an acquired immunity and not a stress free healthy fish? And how will we ever really know if the fish has an acquired immunity. Especially since we have no idea if it has been infected before the fish came under our care. Not to mention that there are different strains of ick as described by terry.
I have heard from both you and Len, and none of us even know a single person that uses hypo on any kind of consistent basis.
SO HOW IMPORTANT IS A STRESS FREE ENVIRONMENT?
If I have a cycled mature 180 with 3 fish do you think an addition of a neon goby will cause stress due to an increased bioload? If in that same tank the 3 fish are an angel, tang, and trigger, do you think the addition of a mandarin will cause stress due to the competition of food? Who will the mandarin be competing with? If I was to add a cleaner wrasse to a tank that has an outbreak of ick do you think this addition will add stress, or will the ick infected fish welcome the cleaner wrasse knowing what it will do (hopefully)? Will the cleaner wrasse be stressed or will it immediately head to the buffet?
Can you please describe us how to "take care"?
And zoo how do you add a fish to your tank?
jim but I have seen tanks with multiple tangs and still only one would be infected with ick. Are you going to attribute that to an acquired immunity and not a stress free healthy fish? And how will we ever really know if the fish has an acquired immunity. Especially since we have no idea if it has been infected before the fish came under our care. Not to mention that there are different strains of ick as described by terry.
I have heard from both you and Len, and none of us even know a single person that uses hypo on any kind of consistent basis.
SO HOW IMPORTANT IS A STRESS FREE ENVIRONMENT?
Jack said:
“How can you say that moving a fish is not a stressful event? If I was a fish I can not think of much else that would be more stressful.”
Where did I say that moving a fish is not stressful? Maybe you don’t understand that stress is a natural thing and intended to improve survival (it is adaptive and not all stress is a bad thing). Every instance of stress is not going to cause the immune system to stop working. It is really only when stress is continuous or maybe unnatural that it becomes maladaptive. BTW, I have written quite a few articles about stress in fish. I think I understand the chemical, biological and behavioral consequences of stress in fish as well as anyone.
”But let me ask you this. What percentage of people that are involved in this hobby practice the proper quarantining and hyposalinity practices you speak of? I personally do not know a single person (including myself) who does.”
Why are you hung up on percentages that you cannot speculate on any more accurately than I can? If the largest percentage of people steal from the poor would that make it right? Do percentages somehow make things right or wrong or true or false? If most people don’t quarantine and they kill a lot of fish because of that does the fact that they are in the majority make them right? Since you are so interested in percentages, what percentage of people here do you think know more about this subject than I do?
”This is why I preach and practice giving the fish a stress free environment so they can rid themselves of ick on their own. Which goes back to a my previous statement of "ick does not kill healthy stress free fish".
It appears to me from your statement that you are either unwilling to learn despite any number of explanations or quotations from scientific literature or I don’t know why you don’t seem to be benefiting from this discussion. You seem to have completely ignored Kelli's expert opinion after you asked for someone with their sort of experience to respond. You are still hanging onto all of your previous erroneous assumptions despite all the information in this thread. Your idea that “"ick does not kill healthy stress free fish", is just the sort of false assumption that leads to a lot of dead fish.
Apparently you know more about this than all the scientists and authors that believe otherwise.
“jim correct me if I am wrong but I have always been under the impression that in order for ick to attack, the fish's immune system has to be lowered and their slime coating has to be depleted.”
Another false assumption that is contrary to scientific evidence.
“I do not see how adding a fish with a low level infectiion, or even a high level infection to a healthy stress free environment could cause the other healthy happy fish to break out. This is why I keep on saying that you can have a tank full of fish with only 1 infected fish.”
The infection first becomes full-blown on the new non-immune fish. The parasite multiplies because it now has a suitable. Then the shear number of parasites eventually overcomes the partially immune fish in the system. The population density of a pathogen is a factor in infection.
Nobody here is going to convince you with any amount of information, documentation or surveys if you are not willing to consider the information that you are given. If you really want to hang onto your old way of thinking then don’t let me change your mind. BTW, where are the references to support your contentions? Can you give me any references to the scientific journals that will support your ideas? If you want to read the real facts then I can suggest some journals for you to get.
Terry B
“How can you say that moving a fish is not a stressful event? If I was a fish I can not think of much else that would be more stressful.”
Where did I say that moving a fish is not stressful? Maybe you don’t understand that stress is a natural thing and intended to improve survival (it is adaptive and not all stress is a bad thing). Every instance of stress is not going to cause the immune system to stop working. It is really only when stress is continuous or maybe unnatural that it becomes maladaptive. BTW, I have written quite a few articles about stress in fish. I think I understand the chemical, biological and behavioral consequences of stress in fish as well as anyone.
”But let me ask you this. What percentage of people that are involved in this hobby practice the proper quarantining and hyposalinity practices you speak of? I personally do not know a single person (including myself) who does.”
Why are you hung up on percentages that you cannot speculate on any more accurately than I can? If the largest percentage of people steal from the poor would that make it right? Do percentages somehow make things right or wrong or true or false? If most people don’t quarantine and they kill a lot of fish because of that does the fact that they are in the majority make them right? Since you are so interested in percentages, what percentage of people here do you think know more about this subject than I do?
”This is why I preach and practice giving the fish a stress free environment so they can rid themselves of ick on their own. Which goes back to a my previous statement of "ick does not kill healthy stress free fish".
It appears to me from your statement that you are either unwilling to learn despite any number of explanations or quotations from scientific literature or I don’t know why you don’t seem to be benefiting from this discussion. You seem to have completely ignored Kelli's expert opinion after you asked for someone with their sort of experience to respond. You are still hanging onto all of your previous erroneous assumptions despite all the information in this thread. Your idea that “"ick does not kill healthy stress free fish", is just the sort of false assumption that leads to a lot of dead fish.
Apparently you know more about this than all the scientists and authors that believe otherwise.
“jim correct me if I am wrong but I have always been under the impression that in order for ick to attack, the fish's immune system has to be lowered and their slime coating has to be depleted.”
Another false assumption that is contrary to scientific evidence.
“I do not see how adding a fish with a low level infectiion, or even a high level infection to a healthy stress free environment could cause the other healthy happy fish to break out. This is why I keep on saying that you can have a tank full of fish with only 1 infected fish.”
The infection first becomes full-blown on the new non-immune fish. The parasite multiplies because it now has a suitable. Then the shear number of parasites eventually overcomes the partially immune fish in the system. The population density of a pathogen is a factor in infection.
Nobody here is going to convince you with any amount of information, documentation or surveys if you are not willing to consider the information that you are given. If you really want to hang onto your old way of thinking then don’t let me change your mind. BTW, where are the references to support your contentions? Can you give me any references to the scientific journals that will support your ideas? If you want to read the real facts then I can suggest some journals for you to get.
Terry B
Where are my posts vague and wrong? You are the one who keeps making unfounded statements and asking everyone else to prove their points. You really don't think before replying do you? Obviously I didn't mean that every fish will compete for food, however it is a possibility that fish will compete for food and this could be a cause of stress. Yes every fish you add adds to the bioload. You think that just because it is small it doesnt add to the bioload? Yes I think that if you add a cleaner wrasse to a tank with ich you are placing more stress on your current fish. I think your also an idiot if you introduce and fish into a tank with ich.TheZooFarmer":1rcsq0h2 said:
You can take care to minimise stress by choosing compatable tank mates, moving rock when you introduce fish, introduce fish slowly, acclimatise for a long period of time, quarantine fish etc.
I drip acclimatise my fish over a couple of hours, or however long it takes. I add fish over a long period of time instead of all at once. At the moment unfortunately I don't have a quarantine setup however I will be setting one up shortly.
zooman maybe you should change you rname to the contradiction king.
You clearly state that
"The addition of a new fish will ALWAYS stress those around it, they compete for food, territory even the increased bio load on the tank is going to put some stress on the fish."
Then you say
"Obviously I didn't mean that EVERY fish will compete for food, however it is a possibility that fish will compete for food and this COULD BE a cause of stress. Yes every fish you add adds to the bioload. You think that just because it is small it doesnt add to the bioload?"
So zoo I am trying to be very very specific. You have already said that not every fish will compete with one and another for food. But you are still saying that adding a neon goby to a mature 180 which presently houses 3 fish will be a stressful event because of the increased bioload?
A simple yes or no will do. Does anyone think the addition of the neon goby will be a stressful event to the 3 fish in the 180 because of the increased bioload?
Can anyone point a point of refernce that will support this theory?
len, jim do you care to give us your take?
You clearly state that
"The addition of a new fish will ALWAYS stress those around it, they compete for food, territory even the increased bio load on the tank is going to put some stress on the fish."
Then you say
"Obviously I didn't mean that EVERY fish will compete for food, however it is a possibility that fish will compete for food and this COULD BE a cause of stress. Yes every fish you add adds to the bioload. You think that just because it is small it doesnt add to the bioload?"
So zoo I am trying to be very very specific. You have already said that not every fish will compete with one and another for food. But you are still saying that adding a neon goby to a mature 180 which presently houses 3 fish will be a stressful event because of the increased bioload?
A simple yes or no will do. Does anyone think the addition of the neon goby will be a stressful event to the 3 fish in the 180 because of the increased bioload?
Can anyone point a point of refernce that will support this theory?
len, jim do you care to give us your take?
Zoofarmer, I have to agree with you that most people do not practice the proper QT procedure....but I have to tell you that some do.
After a battle with ich, I fallowed my tank for over two months, much longer than recomended. And let me tell you, it was painful for a new reefkeeper to see a tank with no fish in it, even though it had wonderful corals and inverts..."so, where are the fish?" Then I have to explain that the tank has no fish for the next month or so and that even then I will be adding one or two every one or two months....basically it will be 2004 by the time I have five fish in the tank.
I now QT any fish in 1.009-1.010 SG tested with a floating glass and two box style hydrometers. I start my clock when the SG reaches that point, which takes a few days from when I buy the fish (to reduce stress). I let him live in that for 4 weeks! Then I let him sit in full salt for a week to see if anything developes. Then he goes in my completely ich free display. Oh yeah, and I have seperate tools for my QT tank and I never work on my display after I have touched anything from the QT.
In addition to all that, the fish gets a few freshwater dips, even if he looks healthy.
Now that is proper paraniod QT procedure. 8O
But hey, I'm probably the only person that does all that.
After a battle with ich, I fallowed my tank for over two months, much longer than recomended. And let me tell you, it was painful for a new reefkeeper to see a tank with no fish in it, even though it had wonderful corals and inverts..."so, where are the fish?" Then I have to explain that the tank has no fish for the next month or so and that even then I will be adding one or two every one or two months....basically it will be 2004 by the time I have five fish in the tank.
I now QT any fish in 1.009-1.010 SG tested with a floating glass and two box style hydrometers. I start my clock when the SG reaches that point, which takes a few days from when I buy the fish (to reduce stress). I let him live in that for 4 weeks! Then I let him sit in full salt for a week to see if anything developes. Then he goes in my completely ich free display. Oh yeah, and I have seperate tools for my QT tank and I never work on my display after I have touched anything from the QT.
In addition to all that, the fish gets a few freshwater dips, even if he looks healthy.
Now that is proper paraniod QT procedure. 8O
But hey, I'm probably the only person that does all that.
that is great manny, and so far you are the only person who stated that is what they do
I do not know if you have read terrys previous posts but he has said that a FW dip is practically useless, escpecially sine you are treaing with hypo after the fact.
you might want to skip the fw dip to reduce stress on the fish
maybe terry can hop in and add something
I do not know if you have read terrys previous posts but he has said that a FW dip is practically useless, escpecially sine you are treaing with hypo after the fact.
you might want to skip the fw dip to reduce stress on the fish
maybe terry can hop in and add something
I have read that FWDs are useless if you are already treating with hypo. However, in my limited experience, I have found FWDs to benefit fish that are already in hypo. I think this is because the parasites can withstand the hypo, hiding under the fish's skin and slime coat, but they cannot withstand the shock of freshwater. I also thought (completely intuitively, as I have not read this) that the hypo might actually make the FWD less effective because it is less of a change in SG from 1.010 to 1.000 than from 1.025 to 1.000.
I think they help because I have two clowns with brooklynella (my third pair of clowns this year, hence my signature) and the hypo alone did not make them get better. In fact, they declined, started breathing heavyer every day, and were getting more of a cloudy film. Since I began daily FWDs, they have improved every day. They have gone from hiding and reluctanly eating, to swimming in the open all day and begging for food every time they see me . I think that this pair might make it, thanks to FWD and hypo combined.
I am interested in the oppinion of more experienced people, like Terry. What do you think about my anecdotal evidence Terry and Zoofarmer?
I think they help because I have two clowns with brooklynella (my third pair of clowns this year, hence my signature) and the hypo alone did not make them get better. In fact, they declined, started breathing heavyer every day, and were getting more of a cloudy film. Since I began daily FWDs, they have improved every day. They have gone from hiding and reluctanly eating, to swimming in the open all day and begging for food every time they see me
. I think that this pair might make it, thanks to FWD and hypo combined.I am interested in the oppinion of more experienced people, like Terry. What do you think about my anecdotal evidence Terry and Zoofarmer?
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
