How much do you get at your LFS for frags?

[JennM]

It's rude and unfair to hang out at LFS and try to undercut their business, using their facility to try to hawk your wares. I'd toss anybody out who tried to sell frags to my customers, under my roof. Trading or giving away is one thing, SELLING is what I do in my store. Think of what you do for a living and imagine your competition coming in and undermining your business, or a private individual coming in and undermining your business ... puts a different perspective on it, doesn't it?

As for trading for cash or store credit, and wholesale/retail prices, Righty, just how does the store "get you both ways"? Without somebody to buy/trade those frags, you are stuck with them unless you find another way to sell/trade them (reef club, classified ads, etc). Since you will probably want other livestock or supplies, the LFS is providing you with 2 SERVICES... frag clearinghouse for you, and supplies for you. If you didn't have a place to sell or trade your frags, you would still need supplies and want other livestock -- IMO it's win/win for hobbyist and LFS if trades for store credit can occur. I guess it's just a matter of "glass half empty or glass half full". I guess you see LFS as ripoffs? God forbid there should be an advantage for the store to buy your frags? IMO it's rather convenient for a hobbyist to be able to unload several of the same type of frag all at once, instead of orchestrating several trades with this one or that one, people not showing up at meetings after arranging deals, and etc... but that's just my hobbyist experience at frag swaps

Besides, if you don't like the deal that the LFS is offering, you don't have to trade.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

As for trading for cash or store credit, and wholesale/retail prices, Righty, just how does the store "get you both ways"?

You get 10 store bucks for a coral. They sell it for 20. You buy dry goods with your store bucks, which only cost the store 5 bucks. So in reality, only gave you 5 real bucks.

Again, and see below, I have no problem with this system.

I guess you see LFS as ripoffs? God forbid there should be an advantage for the store to buy your frags? IMO it's rather convenient for a hobbyist to be able to unload several of the same type of frag all at once, instead of orchestrating several trades with this one or that one, people not showing up at meetings after arranging deals, and etc... but that's just my hobbyist experience at frag swaps.

Besides, if you don't like the deal that the LFS is offering, you don't have to trade.

I think it would be better to read my entire post instead of assuming and agruing against positions I clearly don't hold.

I wrote:

I don't think this {giving store credit, and getting both ends} is a terrible practice at all, but I like to be honest about it.

and

BTW, I never ask what I want for a piece - I let the LFS tell me what they want to pay. I figure they are doing me a service, let them set the price.

:mrgreen:

 

[JennM]

I did read the entirety of your post... and yes I did see that you said one thing, but actually do another.

I just am curious about why it's a bad thing that the store benefits. Your statement, even if not your whole post, but just that statement, implies that the store is benefiting unfairly.

It's all about perceived value - if you can trade a frag for $10 in store credit, and get something you would have spent $10 on anyway, why is it relevant that the store only paid $5 for it?

Not trying to flame or argue, just found the comment that the "store gets you" to be worthy of exploring further.

Jenn

 

[liquid]

Eh I was likening it to how I deal with used car salesman: if I'm going to trade in a car and buy a car from the same lot we either work off retail price for both vehicles or dealer price for both vehicles. That way they don't get my car for dealer price and sell me a car at retail. They try to get you as many ways as they can. However, this is used car salesmen and not the LFS.

Taking frags into the LFS for trade/credit/etc is all new to me so I'm trying to figure out exactly how things work.

Keep the advice coming.

Shane

 

[JennM]

Unfortunately, LFS get compared to used car salespeople all the time online... Honestly we aren't all out to get you... :roll:

Really, anybody in what they do, are simply out there to make a living. I'm sure there are bad apples in every barrel, but not every LFS (or every car salesperson) is out to bend you over. IMO most people who get their sleeves wet every day for a living, do it because they love to do it, not because they can get rich overnight

If you have a store that you can work with to trade frags, I'm sure you'll get their best price on whatever you trade for ... it *IS* a give and take thing, and in my experience as both a store owner, and as a hobbyist, stores appreciate customer loyalty, and customers appreciate a good shop.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

I did read the entirety of your post... and yes I did see that you said one thing, but actually do another.

Then what was the point of the 'you feel lfs are ripoffs..' section of your post?

I just am curious about why it's a bad thing that the store benefits. Your statement, even if not your whole post, but just that statement, implies that the store is benefiting unfairly.

That implication was not meant by me, but I see how you could see it.

Its not a bad thing for the store to benefit. Many people don't realize that the store is 'forcing' via paying store credit, you to make it money twice, that in reality the deal they made you is way better for them than you, and they get upset when the realize this. And, like liquid says, it is a little weird to charge wholesale and then get 'forced' to pay full retail to the same establishment.

It's all about perceived value - if you can trade a frag for $10 in store credit, and get something you would have spent $10 on anyway, why is it relevant that the store only paid $5 for it?

Because the assumes that the stores preceived value is worth more than yours. I think a propagated animal should be percieved to be worth more than a wild caught animal.

 

[JennM]

My point is, nobody is "forcing" anyone. If a hobbyist brings in frags to trade, he should be glad to be able to do so.

Again, it's perceived value. If one doesn't feel that they are getting value for their frags, then they don't trade. It's all relative. No assumptions, either the hobbyist feels like he's getting his money's worth, or he takes his frags elsewhere...

My "ripoffs" comment stemmed from your comment that the LFS "gets you both ways", implying that the store was taking advantage.

Again, the worth of a captive propagated animal is a perceived value too... yes, I would agree that there is more perceived value in a captive propagated animal, it has shown its adaptability to aquarium life, and therefore is more likely to succeed. However, the reality of LFS life, is that MOST hobbyists don't give a tinker's curse about that, all they want is the cheapest price. That's why there isn't a huge economic force behind captive propagation, and that's why the fish trade still has an abundance of cyanide-caught specimens.

Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful or argumentative on a personal level, just playing devil's advocate from my side of the fence.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

And, like liquid says, it is a little weird to charge wholesale and then get 'forced' to pay full retail to the same establishment.

By virtue of opening a store and paying sales tax and what not, the retailer has earned the right to make wholesale purchases. The right doesn't really extend to the hobbyist who frags a few corals. You are going into his/her store where they have a great deal of overhead and expecting them too swap even, for something they may not even want. Believe it or not some of us take trade-ins just to help the customer out. It happens a lot when people are moving or getting out of the hobby. The more volume you do with your wholesalers, the better care they take of you in return in this business. Half what the store sells it for in store credit is more than fair IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

My point is, nobody is "forcing" anyone.

Agreed. Thats why I put 'forcing' in quotes.

If a hobbyist brings in frags to trade, he should be glad to be able to do so.

I think I partly disagree, aas why shouldnt it be the case that the store is equally glad to take the frags in trade.

My "ripoffs" comment stemmed from your comment that the LFS "gets you both ways", implying that the store was taking advantage.

But if you understood that that isnt what I meant because you read the whole thing, why the assumptive accusation? Ahn nevermind.

However, the reality of LFS life, is that MOST hobbyists don't give a tinker's curse about that, all they want is the cheapest price. That's why there isn't a huge economic force behind captive propagation, and that's why the fish trade still has an abundance of cyanide-caught specimens.

And that will never change unless those attitudes start to change.

Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful or argumentative on a personal level, just playing devil's advocate from my side of the fence.

Jenn

Me too!

 

[Anonymous]

And, like liquid says, it is a little weird to charge wholesale and then get 'forced' to pay full retail to the same establishment.

By virtue of opening a store and paying sales tax and what not, the retailer has earned the right to make wholesale purchases.

Sure (well, they bought a wholesale license), however, they arent really making a wholesale purchase. They are trading something they will sell in their store for credit in their store (and I seriously doubt that such transactions are recorded and taxed, possibly negating any 'right' they have to do business).

The right doesn't really extend to the hobbyist who frags a few corals.

It does if that hobbyist has a wholesale license, which I do. I seriously doubt that a LFS would extend me the wholesale courtesy I am extending them.
I don't think we are talking about any kind of regular wholesale purchase. This small scale bartering falls into a grey area of business.

You are going into his/her store where they have a great deal of overhead

Yep, that I was I said right at the beginning that this kind of system is no big deal. As long as both parties understand the deal, its cool.

and expecting them too swap even, for something they may not even want.

I don't, and I don't think anyone else expects any such thing. I am in no way a proponent of even swap with an LFS, they have overhead and stuff. And if they don't want it they don't have to take it. That is another of the benfits they get out of this deal.

Remember, in my post that you quoted, I said it was a little weird, and I still think it is. That doesn't mean I don't accept it.

 

[JennM]

Depends on the frags. Once I had 3 people bring me Xenia in the same week. I was thrilled to see the first one - Xenia does not ship well. I wasn't so happy to see the second person... the third one, well I accepted the frags but then I had a glut of the stuff. Ironically, nobody has brought me Xenia in ages - I've got a few stalks that I'm propping, but I could use a small batch of it

Sometimes, trading in is done strictly as a courtesy. In the case of "too much Xenia", it is definitely a courtesy. Often it is a great benefit to the store - however not all stores will take stuff in. I know of some stores that won't take anything in or anything back - once it's out the door, the door only goes one way. Once you buy it you are on your own, no matter what.

I wouldn't have ordered such a quantity of Xenia from my supplier, as I took in on trades that week - I pick from their list and get a variety - so it's not quite the same as if I had chosen how much to get...

I've finally had to impose some restrictions on fish trades that I'll take... (I realize we're talking about frags, but I digress for a moment...). I am all over taking in Banggai Cardinals that were captive propagated, and if anybody could rear clownfishes or seahorses, I'd be all over that too (on a hobbyist scale), but I got to a point where I can only issue store credit for stuff I've sold. If I sell something that doesn't play nicely with others (even though book knowledge says it should), or if it outgrows the tank, I'll take it back. However I have stopped taking fishes purchased elsewhere - since people were coming to me with inappropriate fishes purchased elsewhere, and when they attempted to return them, they were declined.... I had a collection of Lunare wrasses - I still do. I've turned down 4 more! I've only ever brought one Lunare into my shop, I have him still... and several others. Nowadays, if you have an unwanted fish, I'll take it in (so it doesn't get flushed) but I cannot offer store credit for it unless I sold it in the first place. Only exceptions I make are for easily saleable fish - then I offer wholesale credit. It's a fine line - between being a foundling home for rejected fishes that are hard to (honestly) sell. I have managed to place some rather unruly fishes with appropriate owners/tankmates, but it can take months or a year or more... ditto with corals - no matter what the source, we buy on speculation that somebody at some point, will want what we've got.

Jenn

 

[JennM]

="Righty"
Sure (well, they bought a wholesale license), however, they arent really making a wholesale purchase. They are trading something they will sell in their store for credit in their store (and I seriously doubt that such transactions are recorded and taxed, possibly negating any 'right' they have to do business).

I can only speak for my own practices here. Wholesale purchases are not taxed - that's why I have a resale number. Regardless of whether I buy my corals from MaryHM or Joe Hobbyist, I do not pay tax on my purchases. The main difference at this level is that MaryHM pays income tax on any profit she makes, but I'd be willing to bet that Joe Hobbyist does not report his income (yes, income) from his trading activities, on his Income Tax Return.

When I sell a frag I've traded for, I charge sales tax, because that is my obligation under the law of the state of Georgia. Likewise, when Joe Hobbyist redeems his store credit, he is charged tax on his purchases. The store credit issued is recorded as a sales discount, instead of a cash payment, because that is what it is.

Again I can only speak for my own practices.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Wholesale purchases are not taxed - that's why I have a resale number.

Gulp. Got me!

Regardless of whether I buy my corals from MaryHM or Joe Hobbyist, I do not pay tax on my purchases. The main difference at this level is that MaryHM pays income tax on any profit she makes, but I'd be willing to bet that Joe Hobbyist does not report his income (yes, income) from his trading activities, on his Income Tax Return.

You bet they don't!
If I came to your store with a resale number, would you sell to me for wholesale?

When I sell a frag I've traded for, I charge sales tax, because that is my obligation under the law of the state of Georgia. Likewise, when Joe Hobbyist redeems his store credit, he is charged tax on his purchases. The store credit issued is recorded as a sales discount, instead of a cash payment, because that is what it is.

That is how it shold be!

I think whatever policies you want to have in your store are up to you and can be changed whenever you want.

 

[dizzy]

If I came to your store with a resale number, would you sell to me for wholesale?

Righty retail stores don't usually sell anything wholesale to anyone. You really can't afford to tie up your money buying product and then selling it for what you gave for it. If you want to buy wholesale you need to go to a wholesaler and not a retailer.

 

[Anonymous]

Of the three stores I frequent:

One gives 50% of resale price

One gives 1/3

Last one I dunno - never asked.


I usually end up just giving away frags to people that come over anyways.

 

[Anonymous]

If I came to your store with a resale number, would you sell to me for wholesale?

Righty retail stores don't usually sell anything wholesale to anyone. You really can't afford to tie up your money buying product and then selling it for what you gave for it. If you want to buy wholesale you need to go to a wholesaler and not a retailer.

Yeah, but you are only applying the rules when it benifits the LFS.

Before you were saying that LFS have the 'right' to buy wholesale. Now, you are saying that even though I also have that 'right' the LFS does not have to honor it. If I only have the 'right' to by wholesale from wholesalers, why do LFS have the'right' to buy wholesale from people who aren't wholesalers?

The assumption seems to be that the LFS should only purchase things for wholesale prices. While I don't mind the practice, but I do mind the assumption.

 

[Jolieve]

Wow... who realized this would get taken this far?

All I really have to say on this is, I don't care if my lfs is making money off of me twice. I'd like my lfs to stay in business, I'd like my lfs to continue its practice of encouraging the local hobbyist to frag their own corals and bring them in for other people to enjoy the same species, without having to take them from the oceans.

The rest of it? I don't really give a darn about, and I imagine that your average hobbyist probably doesn't really give a darn about it either.

My .02 cents.
J.

 

[gracie]

Thank you Jolieve! I agree. When I trade or sell
my frags to lfs I know someone will enjoy them.
I am not trying to make money just enjoy my
hobby. You are absolutely right at least the frags
were not taken from the ocean.

 

[JennM]

Jolieve and gracie - you have it! That's EXACTLY the spirit in which most frags are traded - and the hobbyist gets to offset some of his own costs. Very very few hobbyists actually would realize a profit off their frags, even if they were paid cash... it would take a helluva lot of frags to pay for a tank setup and all that goes with it...

Righty, if you brought in a valid resale permit for a pet-related business, and left a photocopy of it on file with me, you could buy at my regular prices and not pay sales tax because using your permit, and on good faith, you are purchasing products from me for resale. As a reseller, YOU collect and remit the tax when you resell the item. There are a couple of industry types who buy bits and pieces from me this way, and if the government ever needs to verify why I didn't charge them tax, I have a hard copy of their resale permit on file to verify that they are bona fide businesses, specific to the pet industry.

I am not a wholesaler. If you wish to buy at wholesale, you need to go to a wholesaler and fulfil their requirements of not *only* the resale number and business licence, but most (if not all) require that you also have a bricks and mortar store front, and you spend a minimum dollar amount - the local wholesaler here in ATL requires that you spend $100 if you are shopping in person. Most out of state wholesalers require that you spend $250-$350 minimum per order. If you can fulfill those requirements, then you're better off shopping with them.

Reality is, that the industry folks who have their resale number on file with me, do not meet all of those requirements - either they are home-based businesses, or they don't need/want to spend that kind of money at a time - thus they pay retail prices, but forego the tax.

Hope this clears a few things up.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

JennM you hit everything right on the head :lol:

Righty, we have/had 3 lfs here, none of them would not give any kind of store credit, 1 is now out of business because they sold wholesale to a select few, and under charged a select different few and over charged the remainder of us (like 6x over wholesale).

Having a resale license doesn't mean you can walk into any store and buy wholesale. It means you are a business and can go into an electrical supply store, lumber co., hardware store or what not, and buy without paying sales tax, for your business. It also means you can buy from any pet wholesaler for wholesale prices. But it also means that you got to fill out all kinds of forms once a month too. :evil:

I would give anything to have a decent lfs here where I live. I would love to have a store that would give me store credit. If your one of the lucky ones who do, then quit complaining that they're getting you both ways. Jenn feel like pulling up stakes and moveing here? 8O