Introducing Tridacna species to Gulf waters, your opinion.

[John_Brandt]

In science topics are brought up and discussed and researched to see the VALIDITY of the subject.
It's the foundation of our technology, why do you think we have come so far in the past 100 years, by scientists sitting on their hands, no by research. I didn't want to get this deep, but I'm not going to be falsely accused of being irresponsible for my posting.
Nothing against you SciGuy2 but the reason why we have so many useful products and equipment for this hobby is because of research, looking into ideas, researching those ideas.
Don't let a few mistakes in the past stop the progress of research, in the future this topic may come up again, if God forbid the Tridacna's numbers do dwindle down to dangerous numbers, we may have to setup protected aquatic farms in Federal waters, but only if there is a need and the Government allows it and has appointed a program to do this.

Captive Reef, have you been researching the history of introduced exotic species? What are you hoping to discover by asking this question of hobbyists? If some of us thought it was a good idea would you approach the government with a suggestion to do the introduction? Would you yourself, or would you encourage hobbyists to introduce these clams?

Did you know that Tridacna clam propagation and restoration efforts are well underway in Southeast Asia and the South Pacific? Did you know that CITES has already listed this genus on Appendix II, which monitors the International trade in these clams - and is used to buttress local governments' quotas and bans on wild harvest and International trade? Did you know that Tridacna clams are locally threatened, but not regionally? Did you know that in areas where they are not intensively harvested for food they are extremely numerous? Did you think the world is getting down to the last few Tridacna clams?

 

[CaptiveReef]

You wouldn't get a bivalve parasite from captive propagated clams...

What makes you confident of that statement?

Do you think a well running clam farm would take the risk of allowing bivalve parasites to infest their crop. With all the control measures being taken to collect and raise the clam spawn, the bivalve parasites are most likely being introduced after they leave the farm. I have been in a number of wholesale facilities and have seen newly introduced clams being put in holding tanks that had bivalve parasites.
And don't ask me to name them!

CaptiveReef

 

[John_Brandt]

Do you think a well running clam farm would take the risk of allowing bivalve parasites to infest their crop. With all the control measures being taken to collect and raise the clam spawn, the bivalve parasites are most likely being introduced after they leave the farm. I have been in a number of wholesale facilities and have seen newly introduced clams being put in holding tanks that had bivalve parasites. And don't ask me to name them!

I think a well-running clam farm is incapable of identifying and eradicating all possible clam pathogens. We don't simply concern ourselves with "parasites". We need to know about bacteria and viruses as well.

What about the introduction of a foreign zooxanthellae to the Gulf of Mexico?

You made an appeal to a scientific approach to the issue - you are getting it :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

...Hey If I want to I'll post it on as many boards for discussion purposes ...

Okay keep asking the question if you really want to, but how many more times do you need to hear that introducing an alien species is a bad idea?

...This board has kept this discussion as a discussion,and not a gang up flame forum. And who are you to assume what arguments would come up by me posting on another forum.
I find the fact that you HAD TO POST to accuse me of trolling, you are trying to turn this discussion into another flame topic. If you read I stated not to do this, but keep it as a discussion. ...

If I had wanted to start a flame war I would have used much more argumentative language.

...I didn't want to get this deep, but I'm not going to be falsely accused of being irresponsible for my posting...

Okay, if I wrongly took things, I'm sorry. But you certainly had the appearance of one of those people that asks a question and when they get advice they don't like, keeps asking the same question over and over until they find someone willing to give them the advice they want to hear.

...Don't let a few mistakes in the past stop the progress of research, in the future this topic may come up again, if God forbid the Tridacna's numbers do dwindle down to dangerous numbers, we may have to setup protected aquatic farms in Federal waters, but only if there is a need and the Government allows it and has appointed a program to do this...

Alright, if a native species dwindles down in the environment and it is determined that a captive propagation and species re-introduction program is needed it should be done as close to where the species naturally occurred as possible.

-Lee :mrgreen:

 

[hdtran]

The problem with this particular gedanken experiment is that it is just that, a thought experiment.

What would you think if I proposed a vitrified high level nuclear waste repository in the Gulf? After all, the vitrification process encapsulates the waste, so it can't leak, and the waste doesn't reproduce (unlike biological critters).

How do we know that vitrified waste doesn't leak? Let's find out by testing it in the gulf!



Hy

 

[tangir1]

>... You wouldn't get a bivalve parasite from captive propagated clams, ...

Don't know, but rice snails are taking toll on farmed clams.

Why John is getting all the attention, while I was ignored when I challenge about the parasite in prop. clam ?

(No, I am not an attention whore )

 

[CaptiveReef]

In science topics are brought up and discussed and researched to see the VALIDITY of the subject.
It's the foundation of our technology, why do you think we have come so far in the past 100 years, by scientists sitting on their hands, no by research. I didn't want to get this deep, but I'm not going to be falsely accused of being irresponsible for my posting.
Nothing against you SciGuy2 but the reason why we have so many useful products and equipment for this hobby is because of research, looking into ideas, researching those ideas.
Don't let a few mistakes in the past stop the progress of research, in the future this topic may come up again, if God forbid the Tridacna's numbers do dwindle down to dangerous numbers, we may have to setup protected aquatic farms in Federal waters, but only if there is a need and the Government allows it and has appointed a program to do this.

Captive Reef, have you been researching the history of introduced exotic species? What are you hoping to discover by asking this question of hobbyists? If some of us thought it was a good idea would you approach the government with a suggestion to do the introduction? Would you yourself, or would you encourage hobbyists to introduce these clams?

Did you know that Tridacna clam propagation and restoration efforts are well underway in Southeast Asia and the South Pacific? Did you know that CITES has already listed this genus on Appendix II, which monitors the International trade in these clams - and is used to buttress local governments' quotas and bans on wild harvest and International trade? Did you know that Tridacna clams are locally threatened, but not regionally? Did you know that in areas where they are not intensively harvested for food they are extremely numerous? Did you think the world is getting down to the last few Tridacna clams?

Well actually I would have you approach the government,(you are a member of the reef police right), :lol: just a little joke.
If there was a need I'm sure the government would take things underway and appoint a research team that is funded to start a protected aquatic farm.
As far as the Tridacna numbers dwindling down, our reefs are totally destroyed in some areas, and the remaining ones are greatly being destroyed by global warming,pollution. So talking about setting up protected farms in other waters is not crazy.
You say Tridacna clams are locally threatened, but not regionally.
OKAY WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE LOCALLY THREATENED TRIDACNA CLAMS ARE WIPED OUT, HELLO REGIONAL CLAMS.
AND THE AREAS THAT ARE HARVESTED FOR FOOD CLAMS ARE WIPED OUT, HELLO AREAS THAT WERE NOT INTENSIVELY HARVESTED.
As far as me asking other hobbyists about this, I don't see the problem. You and a few others started pointing fingers accusing me of trolling, WHAT THE HELL IS TROLLING, by the way. And suggesting that my intentions were dangerous, Discussion is all that I was looking for just discussion.
Oh yea, did you know the world is flat :lol: and if you keep going you will fall off the edge..............
Man will never fly...........
The wet/dry filter concept will never sell.................

God I can't wait for your answer :wink:


CaptiveReef

 

[Anonymous]

What would you think if I proposed a vitrified high level nuclear waste repository in the Gulf? After all, the vitrification process encapsulates the waste, so it can't leak, and the waste doesn't reproduce (unlike biological critters).

How do we know that vitrified waste doesn't leak? Let's find out by testing it in the gulf!

Come on Hy. Everyone knows that only low level vitrified radioactive waste should be dumped in the Gulf. [/sick joke] 8O

The high level stuff should be stuffed under Yucky (Yucca) Mountain, Nevada; a 100 miles NW of Las Vegas.

My only question about Yucca comes when I superficially connect the dots between the Long Valley Caldera and the San Francisco Field.

Oh well, it's not in my back yard. 8O :wink: 8O

Peace,
-Lee

 

[CaptiveReef]

>... You wouldn't get a bivalve parasite from captive propagated clams, ...

Don't know, but rice snails are taking toll on farmed clams.

Why John is getting all the attention, while I was ignored when I challenge about the parasite in prop. clam ?

(No, I am not an attention whore )

:lol: Tangir1 you are funny
To answer this question you have to look at what point are these parasites being introduced. The clam farms take great measures to keep clam predators out of their clam crops.

:lol: attention whore
That is FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!

CaptiveReef

 

[Anonymous]

Just stop replying to this thread, and it will die.

He's obviously not considering the avalanche of reasoning and logic everyone has presented.

He is trolling fish geek forums to get a rise out of people. He probably doesn't even have a tank...

 

[hdtran]

Lee,

Let's do a controlled experiment! Low level vitrified off of Sanibel in the gulf, high level vitrified further offshore. Then, as the control, some glass beads buried in my backyard

More seriously, a cost-benefit analysis should be performed at some point. Rabbits in Australia, certainly the costs outweigh the benefits (though at the time, I'm sure people didn't think so). Ditto wild pigs in Hawaii. I'm pretty sure those were intentional introductions, rather than accidental (like zebra mussels). Kudzu is an intentional introduction which went awry. Corn is an intentional introduction of non-native species from the Americas all over the world--and is relatively beneficial. All the various wheats and rices used in modern agriculture are definitely non-native, but IMO, have benefits.

I personally favor reintroduction of wolves into former habitats in the Rockies & the Southwest (I would also favor reintroduction of grizzlies, but I'm probably in the minority on that one).

Tridacnas, however, are not native to Caribbean or Gulf ecology, so I am opposed, until I see some compelling reasons. CaptiveReef has not provided any compelling reasons.

Hy

 

[Len]

This was posted elsewhere, but for everyone's reference, I'm listing several definitions of trolling, gathered from various online dictionaries. I post this in hopes that everyone can review their own posts to make sure that it does not qualify under any of the decriptions below.

A troll is deliberately crafted to provoke others with the intention of wasting their time and energy

An electronic mail message, Usenet posting or other (electronic) communication which is intentionally incorrect, but not overtly controversial (compare flame bait), or the act of sending such a message. Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply key. A really subtle troll makes some people lose their minds.

To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself.

An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.

As a verb, the practice of trying to lure other Internet users into sending responses to carefully-designed incorrect statements or similar "bait."

"To 'troll' is to make a provocative posting to a forum intended to produce a large volume of frivolous responses. The content of a 'troll' posting generally falls into several areas. It may consist of an apparently foolish contradiction of common knowledge, a deliberately offensive insult to the readers of a forum, or a broad request for trivial follow-up postings.

 

[CaptiveReef]

Lee,

Let's do a controlled experiment! Low level vitrified off of Sanibel in the gulf, high level vitrified further offshore. Then, as the control, some glass beads buried in my backyard

More seriously, a cost-benefit analysis should be performed at some point. Rabbits in Australia, certainly the costs outweigh the benefits (though at the time, I'm sure people didn't think so). Ditto wild pigs in Hawaii. I'm pretty sure those were intentional introductions, rather than accidental (like zebra mussels). Kudzu is an intentional introduction which went awry. Corn is an intentional introduction of non-native species from the Americas all over the world--and is relatively beneficial. All the various wheats and rices used in modern agriculture are definitely non-native, but IMO, have benefits.

I personally favor reintroduction of wolves into former habitats in the Rockies & the Southwest (I would also favor reintroduction of grizzlies, but I'm probably in the minority on that one).

Tridacnas, however, are not native to Caribbean or Gulf ecology, so I am opposed, until I see some compelling reasons. CaptiveReef has not provided any compelling reasons.

Hy

The compelling reasons are that I was looking for a discussion about this subject, ( what if ) for the future. You hit it on the head, you are for the reintroduction of wolves and grizzlies to their habitat, a species that was once in abundance in this area.
These new animals that are being introduced are being taken from the wild from different habitats to repopulate this empty one.
What about the Tridacna, if they are wiped out in certain areas why is it wrong to have a federal protected aquatic farm. Again our Government will come to the rescue and provide a safe controlled area for farming to help in increasing the numbers of clams if the numbers were to become very low.
I think this is pretty compelling, don't you.


CaptiveReef

 

[hdtran]

CaptiveReef writes (slightly edited)

These new animals that are being introduced are being taken from the wild from different habitats to repopulate this empty one.
What about the Tridacna, if they are wiped out in certain areas why is it wrong to have a federal protected aquatic farm. Again our Government will come to the rescue and provide a safe controlled area for farming to help in increasing the numbers of clams if the numbers were to become very low.
I think this is pretty compelling, don't you.

Correct, wolves being reintroduced (or bighorn sheep) are not from the exact same habitat (wolves in Northern Rockies come from Canadian Rockies, not US; bighorn sheep reintroduced in Colorado are from NM and CA populations, If I recall). But as far as I know, they are the same species, and there were lots of discussion (not the least of which was how to compensate ranchers for predatory losses) by both the scientific community and the locals.

Tridacnas are not native to continental America waters. They are not extinct elsewhere (yet). I would oppose wild release of Tridacnas in the Caribbean, unless there were some pretty far out scenarios (meteor causing another mass extinction, etc.). I'm perfectly happy with the idea of aquaculture and reseeding of Tridacnas in their South Pacific habitats.

I'm skeptical of the Government coming to the rescue of anything, except endangered taxpayers (maybe). 8)

 

[Len]

Captivereef,
People are saying to you that it's not a bad idea to farm Tridacnas if done in their native waters, but it's a horrible idea if done in ours. Ecologists, scientists, industry professionals, and all those who are well acquinted with this issue may have a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of introducing foreign species to native waters, but there's a very good reason for it; history has shown it is simply a very bad idea for the local ecology.

 

[CaptiveReef]

This was posted elsewhere, but for everyone's reference, I'm listing several definitions of trolling, gathered from various online dictionaries. I post this in hopes that everyone can review their own posts to make sure that it does not qualify under any of the decriptions below.

A troll is deliberately crafted to provoke others with the intention of wasting their time and energy

An electronic mail message, Usenet posting or other (electronic) communication which is intentionally incorrect, but not overtly controversial (compare flame bait), or the act of sending such a message. Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply key. A really subtle troll makes some people lose their minds.

To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself.

An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.

As a verb, the practice of trying to lure other Internet users into sending responses to carefully-designed incorrect statements or similar "bait."

"To 'troll' is to make a provocative posting to a forum intended to produce a large volume of frivolous responses. The content of a 'troll' posting generally falls into several areas. It may consist of an apparently foolish contradiction of common knowledge, a deliberately offensive insult to the readers of a forum, or a broad request for trivial follow-up postings.

Len thanks for the breakdown, okay I can see this topic being called trolling if,

I was to post that I had already introduced the clams to the gulf, and was now waiting for all the hate post's to start popping up.
It's not foolish to talk or plan for the future, it is foolish to try to discourage somebody from bringing up a valid point ,with tons of information that has compiled from native species that have caused problems in their non native habitats.
Its about research and showing some responsibility.

CaptiveReef

 

[PRC]

Captivereef,
If you are looking for a discussion on this topic why aren't you addressing the issues people are raising? It appears to me that you have only randomly and intermittently responded to any of the multitude of very good arguments against this idea. The reason this is one sided is that it is simply a very bad idea and you are not providing any reaonable counterarguments. I believe this is why people are doubting your intentions. Many people have spent a significant amount of time demonstrating why this is such a bad idea and you have put forth very little effort to debate them as far as I can see.
Any comparison of the reintroduction of a species to it's native habitat is an obvious indication that you are just completely missing the point. That's not what you originally suggested here and it is a very different situation. And the whole "Earth is flat" thing is way off base. Your suggestion has nothing to do with scientific discovery. On second thought, maybe we could discover that normally healthy tridacna clams harbor a virus which is capable of infecting the xooxanthellae in Caribbean scleractinia. Of course we'd manage to wipe out all the stony corals in the western Atlantic in the process, but hey, it's all in the name of scientific advancement right?
Hy, I'm with you on the grizzlies. After all, you haven't lived til you've been charged by an adult grizzly. Everyon should have the opportunity, gives you perspective...
I'll have to think about the nuclear waste thing though. After all Sanibel is sort of my backyard. Maybe it would help the clams grow faster! That's it, then everyone in Florida could be rich, just like oil money in Alaska, except it would be clam money. So that settles it, clams AND nuclear waste in the gulf, the perfect combination!

 

[Len]

PRC,

 

[fishfanatic2]

I don't understand why anybody would even consider this, especially the gov't.

I think we all know the govt. to do some pretty stupid things.

Cane toads in florida...mongoose in hawaii...lots of others i dont know about...all wreaked havoc, and all were introduced by the government to control some pest.

Are you able to cite references that governments intentionally released these species?

FWIW, a mongoose was sighted last week on the Hawaiian island of Kauai for the first time ever.

Maybe it wasnt hawaii, i forget, but jamaican mongoose were intentionally released somewhere to control a pest. I know there are others, just cnat remember the friggin names...ARGH!

EIther way, its a bad idea. :wink:

 

[hdtran]

Mosquito fish were intentionally introduced by the Govt in Hawaii in the 1900's. The mongoose was intentionally introduced by sugar cane planters in Hawaii in the late 1800's to control rats. You can basically consider the planters to be the Gov't in Hawaii in the 1800's. (Natives might disagree--or not).

If you want citations, you could buy me a ticket to Hawaii, then, I'll visit the Bishop museum, write down citations for you, and post!