Accidentally introducing a new animal into a new area is bad enough. The brown snake is a prime example. It was accidentally brough to several south pacific islands on military cargo planes. Since it had no natural preditors, it has wreaked havok on those islands. AFAIK the jack russel terrior is still being used at the military bases to catch any that try and get off the planes now.
Introducing Tridacna species to Gulf waters, your opinion.
- Thread starter CaptiveReef
- Start date
CaptiveReef":eyh4mbel said:Well actually I would have you approach the government,(you are a member of the reef police right), :lol: just a little joke.
If there was a need I'm sure the government would take things underway and appoint a research team that is funded to start a protected aquatic farm.
As far as the Tridacna numbers dwindling down, our reefs are totally destroyed in some areas, and the remaining ones are greatly being destroyed by global warming,pollution. So talking about setting up protected farms in other waters is not crazy.
You say Tridacna clams are locally threatened, but not regionally.
OKAY WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE LOCALLY THREATENED TRIDACNA CLAMS ARE WIPED OUT, HELLO REGIONAL CLAMS.
AND THE AREAS THAT ARE HARVESTED FOR FOOD CLAMS ARE WIPED OUT, HELLO AREAS THAT WERE NOT INTENSIVELY HARVESTED.
As far as me asking other hobbyists about this, I don't see the problem. You and a few others started pointing fingers accusing me of trolling, WHAT THE HELL IS TROLLING, by the way. And suggesting that my intentions were dangerous, Discussion is all that I was looking for just discussion.
Oh yea, did you know the world is flat :lol: and if you keep going you will fall off the edge..............
Man will never fly...........
The wet/dry filter concept will never sell.................
God I can't wait for your answer :wink:
CR, I didn't call you a troll. There is no need for our government to enact a Tridacna clam proagation and restoration program here. Such programs are being used in countries that have local problems with overharvesting. Many clam farms send the bulk of their production to the food market. Asians and Polynesians love to eat Tridacna clam meat. I had it in Samoa, but didn't like it. A huge salad bowl was filled with chopped raw derasa. Blehh, I don't enjoy raw clam - give me oysters instead.
There are many many millions of Tridacna clams out there. I have been in areas where it would be impossible to tally them all. Try counting apples in an orchard.
Anyway, my initial concern with your opening post was that you seemed confident that this is a good idea (putting clams in the Gulf). You seemed to already have a position, rather than inquiring in order to establish a position. The idea of captive propagation of species which are threatened with extinction is a fundamentally good one. But of the ways to go about this, some are better than others. At the present time, Tridacna clams are not threatened with extinction. The most important thing is to protect the larger breeding individuals on the reefs.
We spoke of the hazards of introducing foreign pathogens to the Gulf of Mexico. It would be a similar hazard to then introduce Gulf pathogens to the South Pacific as you (re)distributed these clams to their ancestral reefs.
I see that you are taking flak from all sides now. It's a topic that will incite emotions. I haven't been mean or insulting to you. Was there anything else to discuss or question about this issue? I think my opinion has been given, as you originally requested.
- Location
- Long Island
John, you and everybody have provided a vast amount of important information about this subject, discussed was the dangers of introducing non native species. I have the deepest respect for you and the other members of Reefs.org
I just wanted some opinions on this subject, and I strongly suggest to anybody NOT to go ahead and try this type of introduction of a non native species.
I have said all I have to say about this, I'm going downstairs to frag some more corals.
Thanks, CaptiveReefMmm ... the whole problem with this idea as I see it is ... why bother? There isn't a Tridacna clam farm today that uses ocean culture ... its much more productive to do it in raceways ... so why even bother putting them in the Gulf of Mexico ... nevermind the fact the Gulf gets too cold and is too murky in coastal areas anyway, at least along the US coastline.
Secondly why bother doing it in the Gulf when you can do it in the any of America's Pacific territories i.e. Guam, Samoa, Palmyra Island, Wake etc etc.?
Of course the whole pathogen issue would preclude this anyway ... viruses, bacteria, parasitic snails etc etc etc ... remember all the clams dying off in the west coast stores and hobbyist tanks two years ago? Imagine those clams had ended up in the Gulf or Florida Keys??
FWIW ... Tridacnid clams were introduced to Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii back in the 60's or 70's ... they all died in 6 months.
Hawaii is a prime example of the damage alien species introductions can do ... from algae, to mongoose, to marine fish, to Miconia ...its a mess.
JCD
Secondly why bother doing it in the Gulf when you can do it in the any of America's Pacific territories i.e. Guam, Samoa, Palmyra Island, Wake etc etc.?
Of course the whole pathogen issue would preclude this anyway ... viruses, bacteria, parasitic snails etc etc etc ... remember all the clams dying off in the west coast stores and hobbyist tanks two years ago? Imagine those clams had ended up in the Gulf or Florida Keys??
FWIW ... Tridacnid clams were introduced to Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii back in the 60's or 70's ... they all died in 6 months.
Hawaii is a prime example of the damage alien species introductions can do ... from algae, to mongoose, to marine fish, to Miconia ...its a mess.
JCD
- Location
- Long Island
Now this is the feedback I was looking for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!delbeek":2np5yq0q said:
I'm shocked that the Tridacna's didn't survive in Kaneohe Bay, which has me wondering are different Phytoplankton strains indigenous to certain waters and did that play a major part in the survival of the Tridacna's.
The other Pacific territories you listed are better suited for Tridacna's (water quality) The Gulf does get pretty murky, you have to go out pretty far just to get some clear water.
Yes the pathogen issue would be something that would have to be addressed before even attempting to introduce a new species to a new location. The quarantine measures would have to be strict, from the collection of the spawn to the grow out of the clams to release size.
John, provided alot of information on the problems that Hawaii has been going through. The introduction of non native species is a problem all over.
This discussion you and I are having is what I was looking for, everybody you can have discussions about topics like this it's okay.
I learned from this discussion, to shoot down a topic because it may seem to be dangerous is wrong.
It's human nature to wonder, "what if" in the marine hobby there was and is alot of "what if's" as well as other progress in technology today.
It's the Responsibility factor that has to go along with the,"what if's".
JCD Thankyou for alot of helpful information on this topic!!!
and Aloha
CaptiveReefYeah Delbeek mentioned what I was going to say. If the US was for any reason to establish tridacna farms, it would make most sense to do it on one of the South Pacific territories. As many people have mentioned, there already are many clam farms existing successfully in the South Pacific. Your cause is indeed noble. You are thinking of ways to preserve a species. Though you have to ask yourself, why would the US government have any reason to spend time and money to protect these clams? Our govt gets no benefit. Our govt has a hard enough time protecting and saving our local species from extinction. The govt's of South Pacific countries, however, do have an interest in protecting tridacnas. They are a major source of food, tourism, and export. So if you are truly interested in protecting these clams, you would be much better off contacting an island in the South Pacific where they may have dwindling clam numbers. As for the reef destruction in the caribbean and elsewhere closer to home, we need to be looking at native corals and inverts to be farming, not foreign ones. The idea of rebuilding our reefs with tridacnas is like trying to build a mustang out of camry parts (though im sure there are some car guys out there who could do it )
So if youre truly interested in farming tridacnas, look into something in the South Pacific. If you're more interested in rebuilding our local reefs look into what native species we can use
)So if youre truly interested in farming tridacnas, look into something in the South Pacific. If you're more interested in rebuilding our local reefs look into what native species we can use
And if you are interesting in the existing clam farms, I am going to Kosrae in August, and they have a successful clam farm there. They are raising clams strictly for release back into the wild, to repopulate their reefs. If you want more info I can try to get some while i'm there
Ask those questions to the USCRTF, the USA governemntal group that is looking into protecting the WORLDS reefs, not just ones in US waters (right John :wink: ). We all benifit from protecting and preserving the reefs and we should never look for rewards for doing such activities.
- Location
- Long Island
If you can get the info that would be excellent!!!!!!!!!! I have studied Daniel Knops book on giant clams cover to cover. If you can get pics also that would be great!!!Meloco14":2xm5og85 said:
If you could please find out what they are using to get the clams to spawn, in Knops book they put the clams out in the sun for a little to increase their temp to induce spawning, also they were injecting serotonin
into the clams to also induce spawning.
Thanks again and enjoy the trip!!
CaptiveReefCaptive Reef: If you would read the Tridacnid chapters in The Reef Aquarium volume one you will find reference to spawing them and to Gerry Heslinga's manual on exactly how to breed and raise tridacnid clams ... this stuff is all in the public domain BTW. The Center for Tropical and Subtropical Aquaculture offers these manuals for next to nothing. There are two that deal with soft coral propagation and the business of aquaculturing them as well. Do a search for the CTSA on google.
Phytoplankton are irrelevant to Tridacnids they don't rely on it much ... they died in K-Bay most likely to being moved from their native environmental conditions. They also tried Catalaphyllia ... it also died. Of course these were the same types who introduced some of the invasive non-native algae to Hawaii as well ... so back then the thinking was different than today.
Aloha!
JCD
Phytoplankton are irrelevant to Tridacnids they don't rely on it much ... they died in K-Bay most likely to being moved from their native environmental conditions. They also tried Catalaphyllia ... it also died. Of course these were the same types who introduced some of the invasive non-native algae to Hawaii as well ... so back then the thinking was different than today.
Aloha!
JCD
GreshamH - I am glad to hear the US does have a group to address these issues. I didnt mean to sound like I have no interest in protecting the worlds reefs. I am just not that big of a fan of our government, and the little they do to protect our environment in general. To me, as a member of the general public, it seems they spend very little time on any issue that isn't big in the media or financially lucrative. I had no idea they actually had a group to work on this. What kind of things have they actually done? I would be interested in a website or any more info. I realize my statement sounded like I personally don't think we should protect anything outside the US, and this is not true. I actually am volunteering for a coral monitoring project in Kosrae this summer, and I'm actually paying $3000 just to be able to do it. I am graduating with a degree in aquatic biology this June and hopefully I will be lucky enough to find a job that will enable me to protect our ocean environments on a more first hand basis. Anyway, enough about me, thanks for bringing this to my attention
Also I apologize for making a negative statement about our government. This is just my opinion, and should not be taken for fact by anyone without their own research. It just seems to me that the government is not doing as much as they should to protect our environment, and it is a topic which quickly frustrates and angers me. I also wrote a report on commercial fishing bycatch this past fall, and this really saddened me to see the little our government has done to protect our fisheries. Did you know they tried to change the dolphin safe label to one that is not truly dolphin safe? Just to keep mexico and various south american countries happy. Luckily before this passed the issue was taken to court. I don't know where they are on it right now...
Anyway, when I do go to Kosrae I will try to get as much info and pictures as I can on the tridacna farm and post a report on this forum when I get back. In the industry forum I posted some pics my father took from this farm around late december i think. If you are interested try searching for them
Anyway, when I do go to Kosrae I will try to get as much info and pictures as I can on the tridacna farm and post a report on this forum when I get back. In the industry forum I posted some pics my father took from this farm around late december i think. If you are interested try searching for them
- Location
- Long Island
I read that chapter, in Volume one(Great book by the way, I have both).delbeek":mpfcjfhu said:
I just wanted to see their methods of farming, I'm going to do the search for CTSA.
I'm still amazed they didn't survive, Hawaii's waters are so pristine. Yes the thinking and the research was so different back then.
Thanks JCD
Aloha!
CaptiveReefMeloco14":2t54b0dg said:
The US Government spends and grants many millions of dollars annually for the conservation and restoration of the environment. This is in addition to the myriad of non-Governmental conservation organizations such as World Wildlife Fund, Nature Conservancy, Conservation International, etc.
The United States Coral Reef Task Force (USCRTF) is specifically mandated for preserving, protecting and restoring coral reefs. Their primary scope and goals are the reefs in American waters, but they are directly involved (and increasingly so) with International coral reef conservation initiatives. Two Government entities have much relation to International affairs; these are United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) which is part of the Department of Commerce.
In virtually all cases, non-Governmental organizations (NGO) are deeply involved in the efforts and are generously funded by the Government. One should think twice and research the true situation before making a blanket condemnation of Government involvement in oceanic environmental protection.
There is much funding (American taxpayer dollars) that goes directly to the conservation and restoration of coral reefs in Southeast Asia (Indonesia & Philippines).
You could directly support the involvement, representation and voice of the marine aquarium hobby in these initiatives by joining and supporting the Marine Aquarium Societies of North America (MASNA). I proudly serve on their Board of Directors as a Representative to the USCRTF and would be greatly appreciative if you would join MASNA as an individual or have your marine aquarium society join.
Marine Aquarium Societies of North America (MASNA): http://www.masna.org
United States Coral Reef Task Force (USCRTF): http://coralreef.gov
US Agency for International Development (USAID): http://www.usaid.gov
USAID Environmental Work: http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/environment
USAID Biodiversity Work: http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/environment/biodiversity/index.html
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA): http://www.noaa.gov
NOAA Oceans Program and Stewardship: http://www.noaa.gov/ocean.html
NOAA Fisheries Program: http://www.noaa.gov/fisheries.html
NOAA Aquaculture Program: http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/aquaculture.htm
NOAA Bycatch Program: http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/bycatch.htm
hdtran":vmykkzno said:
These grains have transformed much of the ecosystems and biodiversity of North America. The largest grassland in the world (The Great Plains) had much of its area converted to grain fields and pastureland. My home state of Illinois once contained enormous expanses of prairies with associated flora and fauna. It is now almost entirely corn fields. We used to have an amazing diversity and population of birds and mammals. Now we have corn.
These grains are relatively harmless themselves. But they force (allow) humans to plow vast expanses of wild lands for them to grow upon.
In Southeast Asia, rice fields may destroy coral reefs. This type of agriculture encourages deforestation, clear-cutting and alteration of irrigation. Erosion commences in an altered fashion and in coastal or island situations soil (nutrients) is flushed directly onto coral reefs.
For various reasons, the Philippines now has only about 2% of its original forests. Humans are the cause of it.
I think Tridacna farming in the US will be more driven by food markets. Westernized tastes probably don’t warrant a Florida based farm. I can’t imagine the aquarium industry solely supporting a farm (raceway based). As a repopulation experiment, transportation expense to their natural waters would be to high. Sale of ornamental shells may offset some cost? Not likely. Long term Tridacna will be, and is, a very important agricultural product. With its significant advantages over other mollusk foods, like octopus, we may see a farm in the future. As a salad or on sushi it is not bad, a little to crunch for me. Maybe as the asian population grows and people expand their tastes… We just have to hope they cater to the hobbyist by providing ornamentals in addition to focusing on fast growing species/strains.
BTW the fist Tridacna I ever saw was under John Brandt care at Aquariums by Design, in the late 80s. Been hooked ever since.
BTW the fist Tridacna I ever saw was under John Brandt care at Aquariums by Design, in the late 80s. Been hooked ever since.
Well it has and it does ... the price for brightly coloured clams is many times that of those grown for food, you can sell clams to the aquarium trade at a much smaller size than you can the food trade, so your costs to bring clams to marketable size is less, the list goes on...
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