Introducing Tridacna species to Gulf waters, your opinion.

[CaptiveReef]

I can’t imagine the aquarium industry solely supporting a farm (raceway based).

Well it has and it does ... the price for brightly coloured clams is many times that of those grown for food, you can sell clams to the aquarium trade at a much smaller size than you can the food trade, so your costs to bring clams to marketable size is less, the list goes on...

JCD A major point made here! I have seen the live Gigas used for the food trade, Sushi grade. Their color is the worst ever compared to aquarium trade clams.
Another example is the Tridacna Hippopus no real color, low price to purchase and another clam sought after for food.

Color clams are the precious gems of the aquarium industry, and if a new color morph were to be available, the price for that clam would be double.


CaptiveReef

 

[Anonymous]

Now we have corn.

:lol: Ain't that true!

CaptiveReef - I think the main reason those two are grown for food is the quick growth, they eat all types of clams indiscrimitly. My bosses wife is Tongan and she always waters at the mouth when we bring in maxima and crocea shipments.

 

[Anonymous]

In this case it could very well be the Federal or State governments making the ownership of Tridacna clams illegal. Willfull introduction of alien species by the hobbyists or trade will give them perfect grounds for doing this. Take this very seriously!

Especially when said alien species would be another bivalve in the Gulf of Mexico. I think after Perna viridis, the response would be swift and complete.

 

[Meloco14]

John, thanks for all the great info and links. I will definitely join masna and research more on these topics. Again, I apologize for making such a negative statement. I never meant to offend you or anyone else. It is just in my personal, and i admit limited, experience, it seems like there has been a general degredation of our environment over just my lifetime, which hasn't been very long. But you're right, I should have researched a lot more before making a claim. Personally I know much more about the sport and commercial fisheries than the state of natural reefs. I do believe the government is working toward protecting the environment, especially moreso this past decade or so. I just believe they could be doing much more. And not just financially. If more people (like me) knew about the true situations in the world I think there would be more of a global effort to help out. I think education and spreading the word is the most important thing a member of the general public, such as myself, can do. And I support and am a member of one of the major NGO's. You have had a ton of experience in these areas, and are the most knowledgable person in this field that I currently have contact with, so I greatly appreciate your time and information. I am just curious, and hopeful for a positive answer, over the last few years, or decade, have you seen a general trend of the worlds coral reefs becoming healthier? I am not trying to get a negative answer out of you to strengthen my previous statement, I truly am interested, and as I said you are the person to ask. Here on the west coast I have noticed both ups and downs in our fisheries, but I know nothing specific about reefs. My only first hand knowledge of reefs comes from my childhood when I would visit Grand Cayman every year and every year see less and less amounts of life on the reefs I am going back next year and hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised. Again, thank you for your time and valuable information. And thanks for posting those links.

 

[Anonymous]

John, Charles,
Thanks for your input. A very informative thread.

marked for archiving

 

[CaptiveReef]

I was asked to retype this post instead of providing a link, so here it is.

Okay I'm back again, but to start a thread off of this one. The idea I have is this, since the whole trade is money driven to supply marine life to the aquarium trade.(Now this is going out to the wholesale collectors)
If you all were to join together(world wide), I know this could be a big undertaking), but if you guys were to start adding coral species back to the reef's(only the native species that are and were there originally), you would be able to increase your profits 10 fold.
Yes it's farming on a large scale, but you would be able to increase your supply of corals,(taking it from a fragger) dividing and growing, dividing and growing,dividing and growing.
Also another major positive aspect in this undertaking would be the participation/ employment of the locals to work the farms, be educated in the process, which would provide the security from the local Governments,(costs would have to be taken into consideration for this job). In some countries they make very little money,just enough to survive. These hard working people could make a good living provide for their families, which would benefit all from that country.
It is being done on a small scale now, locals are being paid to mount frag's on disc's and these corals are placed in protective lagoons for growing, then collection.
This could work all over, there are so many benefits to this large farming idea, everybody benefits, most of all the reef's will be restocked with the native species that were once there in abundance.
There would have to be a joint effort by all, Trust, Responsibility, Understanding, all done together for a common goal which is to fill the demand, and to put back rather than just take.
It would be the MCFO (Marine Collectors Farming Organization) or something to that nature.
I was trying to cover and meet all the needs to make this idea work.
Everybody's imput please!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks, CaptiveReef

 

[melanotaenia1]

if they were meant to be there they would be growing there now and we would not have to add them. That is why you dont see any asfur angelfish swimming around the carribean............they belong in the Red Sea.

 

[Baianotang]

number 1: throw in some tridacnas ( more than 10 to get a good DNA diversity)
number 2: dont tell the goverment (you could go to prison)
number 3:the goverment make tridacnas illegal, i dont care I dont live in America jeje.

 

[Ben1]

FWIW, Mongoose were intentionally released to the BVI in the 70's to take care of snakes that were every where. Who knows if the snakes were native. In any case there isn't any more snakes just lots of mongoose, every where!

 

[Anonymous]

number 3:the goverment make tridacnas illegal, i dont care I dont live in America jeje.

this is coming from someone who probably lives in a third world country...
1) i dont care what you say
2) no one wants your opinion
3) youre probably bitter because OUR government
probably deported you!

 

[CaptiveReef]

I was asked to retype this post instead of providing a link, so here it is.

Okay I'm back again, but to start a thread off of this one. The idea I have is this, since the whole trade is money driven to supply marine life to the aquarium trade.(Now this is going out to the wholesale collectors)
If you all were to join together(world wide), I know this could be a big undertaking), but if you guys were to start adding coral species back to the reef's(only the native species that are and were there originally), you would be able to increase your profits 10 fold.
Yes it's farming on a large scale, but you would be able to increase your supply of corals,(taking it from a fragger) dividing and growing, dividing and growing,dividing and growing.
Also another major positive aspect in this undertaking would be the participation/ employment of the locals to work the farms, be educated in the process, which would provide the security from the local Governments,(costs would have to be taken into consideration for this job). In some countries they make very little money,just enough to survive. These hard working people could make a good living provide for their families, which would benefit all from that country.
It is being done on a small scale now, locals are being paid to mount frag's on disc's and these corals are placed in protective lagoons for growing, then collection.
This could work all over, there are so many benefits to this large farming idea, everybody benefits, most of all the reef's will be restocked with the native species that were once there in abundance.
There would have to be a joint effort by all, Trust, Responsibility, Understanding, all done together for a common goal which is to fill the demand, and to put back rather than just take.
It would be the MCFO (Marine Collectors Farming Organization) or something to that nature.
I was trying to cover and meet all the needs to make this idea work.
Everybody's imput please!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks, CaptiveReef

Bump

 

[Anonymous]

You have no idea how things work in the field, do you?

 

[skylsdale]

I agree with Melanotaenia.

If they're not FROM there, don't put them there. Same thing with all this hybridization and color morph garbage. Why can't people just be content with the natural way of things?

 

[CaptiveReef]

You have no idea how things work in the field, do you?

Yes I do, have an understanding of how things work in the field. Some collectors practice the proper way, some don't. If everybody works together, hey then it going to benefit all and the reef.
There was nothing wrong with what I posted, it is pretty much the truth, the reefs have been raped for so long, it's time to make repairs and allow for new growth.

CaptiveReef

 

[Anonymous]

My point being, coral collectors are employeed by the exporters, they aren't freelance collectors. For them to break away and start their own co-op would take considerrable capital plus most collectors don't really even know how to run a full export outfit (CITES paper work, export docs, taxes ,etc.). There are currently a few village based co-ops doing just what your talking about, restoration and all. Problem for them is capital. The current exporters have cash on hand and are pretty powerful people in the country. Bali is currently experiencing a revolution as far as how corals are collected and how business is being conducted. They have a large co-op of divers whom have pledged to do collection right (fish/coral) and are living by there decision. They're having a real hard time being under capitolized. They keep getting $$$ thrown in front of their faces from the exporters wanting them to sell to them rather then to their own co-op thats needs those key fish to survive and attract orders. Its hard for them to resist when they can get instant cash rather then wait for the co-op to get paid and then them.

I don't disagree with what your saying, village based co-ops aren't a new idea though and have been doing exactly what your talking about for some time now. I buy from several village based co-ops and our company has down so since the 70's when we set up one in the Sea of Cortez.

 

[CaptiveReef]

I know it's tough for the collectors, the local Governments should step in and appoint a group to oversee these operations.

Thanks for the info!!!!!!!

CaptiveReef

 

[John_Brandt]

BTW the fist Tridacna I ever saw was under John Brandt care at Aquariums by Design, in the late 80s. Been hooked ever since.

Now I am feeling old :?

 

[John_Brandt]

John, thanks for all the great info and links. I will definitely join masna and research more on these topics. Again, I apologize for making such a negative statement. I never meant to offend you or anyone else. It is just in my personal, and i admit limited, experience, it seems like there has been a general degredation of our environment over just my lifetime, which hasn't been very long. But you're right, I should have researched a lot more before making a claim. Personally I know much more about the sport and commercial fisheries than the state of natural reefs. I do believe the government is working toward protecting the environment, especially moreso this past decade or so. I just believe they could be doing much more. And not just financially. If more people (like me) knew about the true situations in the world I think there would be more of a global effort to help out. I think education and spreading the word is the most important thing a member of the general public, such as myself, can do. And I support and am a member of one of the major NGO's. You have had a ton of experience in these areas, and are the most knowledgable person in this field that I currently have contact with, so I greatly appreciate your time and information. I am just curious, and hopeful for a positive answer, over the last few years, or decade, have you seen a general trend of the worlds coral reefs becoming healthier? I am not trying to get a negative answer out of you to strengthen my previous statement, I truly am interested, and as I said you are the person to ask. Here on the west coast I have noticed both ups and downs in our fisheries, but I know nothing specific about reefs. My only first hand knowledge of reefs comes from my childhood when I would visit Grand Cayman every year and every year see less and less amounts of life on the reefs I am going back next year and hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised. Again, thank you for your time and valuable information. And thanks for posting those links.

It is difficult to make generalized statements about worldwide coral reef degradation but there are some commonalities. Surely some of the biggest threats to reefs are anthropogenic (caused by humans). These threats are persistent and in many cases are increasing in number and intensity.

The USCRTF has created a list of priority focus areas:

1. Land-based Sources of Pollution
2. Overfishing
3. Lack of Public Awareness
4. Recreational Overuse and Misuse
5. Climate Change and Coral Bleaching
6. Disease

Common indications of coral reef deterioration:

* Loss of hard corals
* Increased abundance of algae
* Dramatic increase in bleaching episodes and disease outbreaks

Specific categories of anthropogenic threats are typically:

* Population increases
* Shoreline development
* Increased sediments in the water
* Trampling by tourists and divers
* Ship groundings, pollution, overfishing
* Fishing with poisons and explosives that destroy coral habitat.

Conservation of reefs can occur in two general ways. Prevention of further degradation and reversal of degradation trends. The question of government intervention and remediation of these threats is a tricky one. In the starkest terms, if governments were to prevent anthropogenic threats to reefs and attempt to reverse degradation trends they would have to engage in wholesale revocation of what we would call "human rights".

You can't pollute. You probably can't live by the shoreline. You can't dig up the ground and plant things they way you have been. You can't cut down trees and foliage. You can't raise all those domestic animals near the reefs. You can't build roads. You can't alter or redirect natural waterways. You can't use your boats and ships the way you have been. You can't fish the way you have been. You can't go visit these reefs and conduct yourself the way you have been. You probably can't conduct your life like your father did. You can't make lots of babies and raise them near the reefs. Etc. etc.

So you see, many of the voting taxpayers would outright reject what would be necessary to bring about meaningful repairs to the threats to coral reefs. In so many ways, governments have their hands tied behind their backs when trying to fix these things. And so it may look like governments aren't aren't doing much or aren't able to do much - but really they could do much more. But they have to play a tricky game of balance between what they can do, what they should do and what they will do. There is a general desire for a happy productive population of people. But that obviously often comes at the expense of natural resources and truly wild places. Ironically, enormous sums of money (budgets) don't help the way one might think they would. And restoration of reefs is unfeasible in many cases.

This thread was originally about raising Tridacna clams in the Gulf of Mexico and then returning them to ancestral reefs for the purpose of restoring populations. It was expanded to include the same for corals. But it is useless to reintroduce reef species onto coral reefs that are under constant and increasing threat. Why place an aquacultured clam onto a polluted, sediment-laden, eutrophic, overharvested coastal area?

Back to the question. Have there been accomplishments by governments in conserving and restoring coral reefs? Yes, but in limited ways. If anything, progresses have been made in limiting the anthropogenic degradation - but not much in reversing it.

 

[John_Brandt]

Exotic Marine Fish Species Released In Florida - News Article

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=468868#468868

 

[Meloco14]

Huh, thanks for all the great info. So much to think about now. You make a good point, there really is no point in trying to rebuild reefs that are just going to continue to deteriorate due to human activity, pollution, and climate changes. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that, it's given me a much better understanding about the current situation, and the difficulties faced when trying to find a way to fix some of the problems...