to fatal morgana from newbies thread

[tazdevil]

Bob, seems like your starting to change your tune:

Quote:

Quote:
But if you have never seen a tank (even FW) maintained for years and years with tap water, no water changes, no filter, and no circualtion then you simply can not understand my point.

Hang on there? Are you suggesting that you can run a reef like that above statement? Can't be done.

Beaslbob posted:

Don't know about reef but feel it can be done with FO. And definately for FW. And the FW people say it can't be done also. As I stated for salt fo and reef do require some extra stuff from my experience

So now your admitting that you simply don't know what will happen in a reef tank if you only add tap water and don't perform water changes. Let me give you a hint: It will be ugly. Unless you have near perfect tapwater.


About your theory about were the oceans get their freshwater from. Its seriously flawed. First, water evaporates in the air. Then it rains. Then the water (fresh) flows into lakes and rivers. This water flows into the ocean, on the way a certain percent is used residentially and commercially. But the ocean does not get its water from tapwater. If this where the case, and it was required for ocean life survival, then how exactly did the oceans survive for thousands of years before humans figured out how to make and purify tapwater?

Beaslbob posted:
Untill you attempt to duplicate the efforts, the results are proven. To prove the results wrong the experiment must be duplicated and it shown the results to not always happen. then science can anaylze the differences in an effort to determine what was going on. Again, what is not scientific is just to state "I don't believe you"

Again, wrong. Scientific proof is based on the continual ability to RELIABLY duplicate a result, with hard data that is proveable. Not anecdotal evidence that may have happened once. For example, I could start up an SPS tank, put in a Tear Drop Butterfly (Chaetodon unimaculatus) and get SERIOUSLY LUCKY and have it not touch a single coral. Does that then make it ok for me to say "well, I kept a tear drop in a reef tank, and didn't have it touch a single coral, so it must be ok"? NO. That would be a Tear Drop with mental issues, as they're one of the most destructive butterfly's to ever have in a reef. Probably even on of the most destructive fish in general.

I will give you this though, even with your flawed reasoning, you have been decent about it, and not resorted to the name calling or personal attacks that can ensue. That is appreciated by all.

 

[Anonymous]

I've been watching this thread for a while, and I propose an experiment.
At home I currently have
1) a spare tank
2) tap water
3) salt (from a brackish tank I used to have)

I'm also an ex-chemist, so I know something of scientific method.
I'm also new to reefkeeping.

In order to not kill anything through this experiment, I'd need a way of simulating bio-load/ammonia spikes etc.

Bob, I need you to tell me exactly how I set this thing up. Everyone else can then appraise this setup and critique its scientific validity.

Does that sound like a reasonable way to end this debate?

Good for you!!!!!!!!!!

I am going to work right now but did post earlier in the thread a system that should suffice. My email is [email protected]. Perhaps that would be a good way to settle on the procedures without taking 5-6 posts here.

I really really do appreciate the can do attitude and willingness to give it a try. Any results will be good and enlightening.

Bob

 

[SpecialK]

Hard to keep up with this debate in here, So a SW Tank with:
Tap Water
Skimmerless

What about pumps or circulation? Are we talking bout them being used or not?

Kaye

 

[HClH2OFish]

I'm planning a similar small scale science experiment in the near future. I'm sick and tired of fighting with co-workers about "bacterial supplements" and what a miracle they are. Time to do a test with my bare hands and bring it back to them and show how useless they are (or eat my words).

Unfortunately, I don't think even if you do those tests and show them what a waste some of these products are that you'll change their minds.

Just look at all the people singing the praises of the ecoaqualizer, et al that are nothing more than snake oil. Sheeple want to have an easy way to do things and take shortcuts...and won't listen to reason or proof on why those systems don't work...[

 

[HClH2OFish]

I've been watching this thread for a while, and I propose an experiment.
At home I currently have
1) a spare tank
2) tap water
3) salt (from a brackish tank I used to have)

I'm also an ex-chemist, so I know something of scientific method.
I'm also new to reefkeeping.

In order to not kill anything through this experiment, I'd need a way of simulating bio-load/ammonia spikes etc.

Bob, I need you to tell me exactly how I set this thing up. Everyone else can then appraise this setup and critique its scientific validity.

Does that sound like a reasonable way to end this debate?

There's a post a bit above these that says what how his tanks are setup...I'm thinking of doing the same tests in a 10gal.
He uses silica sand (Home Depot type), limestone rock, and has crushed oyster shells in some kind of overflow box with 5x turnover rate flowing through it.
Egg crate on back of tank, with macro's in the back portion. I'm not 100% sure what lights he's running though.

 

[Bone]

Bob, thanks for your lengthy explanation about the oyster shells. I came across this article where Randy Holmes-Farley discusses various methods of how calcium carbonte solid can be put to use in the marine aquarium. You may find it interesting.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... 2/chem.htm

 

[Anonymous]

from that article:

Some have suggested that these particulate products (whether dry or as a slurry in water) can be added directly to an aquarium to provide calcium and alkalinity. Unfortunately, that method does not work well. Calcium carbonate is already substantially supersaturated in seawater and in reasonably maintained reef tank. Consequently, adding more solid does not lead to dissolution. On the contrary, since the water is already supersaturated, addition of solid calcium carbonate can actually lead to a decline in calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, and pH. First, I’ll provide the theoretical explanation of what will happen, and then I’ll provide some real world evidence for those who don’t generally believe that equations apply to them.

 

[Anonymous]

from that article:

Some have suggested that these particulate products (whether dry or as a slurry in water) can be added directly to an aquarium to provide calcium and alkalinity. Unfortunately, that method does not work well. Calcium carbonate is already substantially supersaturated in seawater and in reasonably maintained reef tank. Consequently, adding more solid does not lead to dissolution. On the contrary, since the water is already supersaturated, addition of solid calcium carbonate can actually lead to a decline in calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, and pH. First, I’ll provide the theoretical explanation of what will happen, and then I’ll provide some real world evidence for those who don’t generally believe that equations apply to them.

That is the major reason I see no real benefit in trying to reproduce bobs Ca methods.
As for the 'plant' methods, no one is really arguing that they aren't beneficial.

 

[Anonymous]

That is the major reason I see no real benefit in trying to reproduce bobs Ca methods.
As for the 'plant' methods, no one is really arguing that they aren't beneficial.

IMO, it seems to me the 'real argument' going on here is with bob's assertations that Macro+tap water+crushed oyster shells+non-standard lighting, etc. will work wonderously for every application every time.

 

[Anonymous]

That is the major reason I see no real benefit in trying to reproduce bobs Ca methods.
As for the 'plant' methods, no one is really arguing that they aren't beneficial.

IMO, it seems to me the 'real argument' going on here is with bob's assertations that Macro+tap water+crushed oyster shells+non-standard lighting, etc. will work wonderously for every application every time.

Exactly, and the answer is a resounding NO.

 

[Anonymous]

Well I'm back home from work so let me try to answer some of the questions.

First I have already discussed the oyster shells in my system with Dr holmes-farley. And he did admit there was probably dissolving at some level which caused the rise in calcium. Additionally, I reviewed his article linked above. I understand the points there. And they are not what is happening in my system. But there are hints.

I want to really those of you who are willing and interested enough to try a simple test tank. Whatever come out of those efforts I am certain we all will learn something.

my 55g:

1-2" silica based home depot play sand
1-2" Crushed coral
50-100 pounds lava, river type rocks, including one geode
15g external combination sump/refugium. with
2" play sand
~5-7g water
diy filter box 6"x10" 10" tall intake 5"tall exit
with partition in center so each side is 10"x3"
red lava landscape rocks on inlet and outlet
Crushed oyster shells inbetween
comercial HOB surface skimmer/overflow.
20"x4' egg crate light diffuser vertical 3" in front of back glass
2 4' utility fixtures 6" behind tank pointing forward (for in tank refug)
2 4' utilty fixtures on top for display area. overdriven so that one ballast drives each tube (~55w) (note this requires an electronic ballast normally not on utility fixtures but I found utility fixtures for $7 that use electronic ballasts. So the two fixtures on top were made from 4 fixtures)

Edit for safety: I use a glass to to isolate the utility tubes from the saltwater.


external sump/refug is lit by a 18w (equilivant to 90w) flour. spot.

external sump refug is powered by a mag 5 pump through a height of 4' (250 gph)

internally there is a powerhead for circulation
and a bubble rock.

in tank refug lights (back lights point forward) are lit from 6am-6 pm
top lights from 6am to 11pm
external refug spot 24/7


all 8 tubes are 4100K 3400 lumen tubes


chaeto,caulperas (grape and prolifera) are between the back glass and the egg crate. Volley ball size of chaeto in in the external sump/refug.

fish are yellow tang, two nemos, watchman gobie, bangaii cardinal

cleaner shrimp, turbo snails, anemone (for nemos)

fish are fed once per day , anemones and open brain get a peice of shrimp per day. I also feed a cube of frozen mysist shrimp and some plankton each day. micorvert is fed twice per week for corals and live brine once per week.

corals fuzzy mushrooms, ricordias, zoos, open brain, frogspan, colt, keyan tree coral, star and button polyps.

If you are actually going to do the tests:

basic idea: take care of the plant life and the plant life will take care of the tank.

All water is tap from the most frequently used faucet in the house, cold water and ran for at least a minute before collecting.

initial setup: add sand, add egg crate, add water, start circulation, add 1 pound of plant life for every 50g of water. chaeto works really really well in the in tank refug.

add the lava rocks and crushed oyster shells to the filter box.

start the pumps and let the system run for a week.

Then add live rock if you use it.

Then let the system run for at least three more weeks.

Then add a single male molly for each 10g

don't feed for a week.

The slowly add the rest of the livestock.


When the fish are established and nitrates are 0.0 and the last red slime (cyano) bloom has subsided, slowly add corals.

maintenance replace evaporative water with tap
rinse out the oyster shells about once per week.

Thats basically it. I have found the back light on the in tank refugium to be critical. It really really got the chaeto going and reduced the caulpera from entering the display area for light.

If you are going to do this on a 10 of course you would have to resize the lighting also. If you are handy perhaps you could cut a 4' utility fixture down and modify it to fire 4 24" tubes instead of 2 48" tubes. But then I haven't tried that so don't really know.

If you don't get enough lighting then nitrates will rise. If you get too much then you will get green water. but that usually takes a huge amount of "overlighting".

Just let the plant life expand to consume the nutrients. Eventually the system will just balance out. For instance, if you have less nutrient input, then you will get less macro growth. More just more macro growth.

And after nitrates are 0.0, then harvest some macros each week or so. The will grow faster until they reach a certain size and amount then slow the growth.

Gee that was longer than I thought.

In my system I had calcium at 250-300 then the oyster shells brought it up to 400. I guess you could try to simulate that if you want too. I used instant ocean. SG is around 1.021-1.023 or so.

I plan to replace the external sump/refug with a diy filter with the lava rocks and oyster shells. That way there is no worry about floods and the cleaning fo the shells would be easier.

 

[SpecialK]

90G with overflow
30G Sump with 900 mag drive for return
2 power heads
Barebottom & Skimmerless
100 or so pounds LR (60 Base & 30 LR)
2 LOA - I just bought Custom Sealife unit & this will go on Sat.

1 Green Carpet - 2 1/2 years in tank
Lots of Zoos, xenia, Softies
2 1/2 years in tank - 2 Percs, 1 Green Filefish, 2 PJ Cardinals, Leaf Fish, Spotted Mandrine, Stars & Shrimps, 2 Chromis(8 months)
I did keep a Kole & Hippo in the tank for 6 months, they are now in my 300.

This tank has been running over 3 years now with Tap Water some plant life but I store it here for my 300G. No alage outbreaks in the tank. I feed 2-3 times a day.

I let this tank cycle 7 months before adding any life to it, all my top offs are Tap Water. I also let the water run from the Tap for about a minute before using it.
I use hot to dissolve my salt than add cold to equal out my temp, no I dont let it sit (ready in 5 minutes) 10 - 15 Gallon water changes every 2 weeks I have gone a month but try not to. All levels are Good.

Inhibitants lost 0 - I have never lost a fish in this tank, it has never crashed & so on.

This is my Tank!
I do not encourage anyone else to do this, if you are new to SW dont just do this. If you consider yourself a newbie this is not the method for you.
I am not here for any one to pick apart my tank because it works for me.

Kaye

 

[Anonymous]

Kaye: sounds like an excellent setup and agrees with feedback I have received from numerous people. anyone who keeps an anemone for 2+ years is obviously practicing good husbandtry.

I also feel waiting for 7 months plus the plant life on the LR goes a long way to explaining your sucess.

thanks for sharing

 

[Juck]

>>I also feel waiting for 7 months plus the plant life on the LR goes a
>>long way to explaining your sucess.

So do 10-15 Gallon water changes every 2 weeks.

 

[Anonymous]

Milzed.

 

[Fatal Morgana]

>>I also feel waiting for 7 months plus the plant life on the LR goes a
>>long way to explaining your sucess.

So do 10-15 Gallon water changes every 2 weeks.

No, nothing else *but* plant life, even if you accidentally pour bleach into the tank, the plant life will save you from disaster. :lol:

 

[HClH2OFish]

>>I also feel waiting for 7 months plus the plant life on the LR goes a
>>long way to explaining your sucess.

So do 10-15 Gallon water changes every 2 weeks.

No, nothing else *but* plant life, even if you accidentally pour bleach into the tank, the plant life will save you from disaster. :lol:

Now, now...play nice! :lol: :lol:

 

[Fatal Morgana]

Sorry. It is not the car (it runs well), and certainly not the salesman (friendly fellow), but how he do his job ("Sale! Sale! Bad Credit, No Problem!".)

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry. It is not the car (it runs well), and certainly not the salesman (friendly fellow), but how he do his job ("Sale! Sale! Bad Credit, No Problem!".)

Well put!

 

[HClH2OFish]

Ya know, that's got to be the politest, most clear cut description of the issue at hand!

I bow to your eloquence