to fatal morgana from newbies thread

[HClH2OFish]

Righty posted:

No one has made that claim that 'un treated' water cannot be used. You are arguing against a position no one holds.

Anyone living in my water district might hold that position, as the water from our taps the nitrate and phosphate levels are off the scales! Plus the hardness is over 18.

That's the point I was trying to make....tap water qualities vary from location to location and sometimes time of year (they add diff. things to our water depending on season) Using an RO/DI unit you don't need to worry about this...only downside is having to then use some additives if warranted/needed.

Oh..Morgana - sorry to hijack! Wasn't meant 40 lashes with a wet noodle...

 

[Anonymous]

Righty posted:

No one has made that claim that 'un treated' water cannot be used. You are arguing against a position no one holds.

Anyone living in my water district might hold that position, as the water from our taps the nitrate and phosphate levels are off the scales! Plus the hardness is over 18.

That's the point I was trying to make....tap water qualities vary from location to location and sometimes time of year (they add diff. things to our water depending on season) Using an RO/DI unit you don't need to worry about this...only downside is having to then use some additives if warranted/needed.

Sorry for the confusion! My statement was kludgy, I was referring to the idea that some people do use 'untreated' water.

 

[Fatal Morgana]

>... Oh..Morgana - sorry to hijack! ...

Don't worry . As I said, pay no attention to anything after the 4th page.

 

[Anonymous]

Well righty I guess I am argueing aganist postions noone holds. So I guess not using skimmers, not using water striped of everyghing (ro/do) is the postion everyone is comfortable with.

My mistake. I am truely sorry. I didn't realise that not using skimmers and other mechanical devices is a proven and tried position.

Sharky: Who said public aquariums do not use filtration? Not me. I even use filtration on my tanks. all of them even the FW.

 

[Anonymous]

Well righty I guess I am argueing aganist postions noone holds.

Often, yes.

So I guess not using skimmers, not using water striped of everyghing (ro/do) is the postion everyone is comfortable with.

This is an example of why we feel makes your advice in the NRF dangerous - you over generalize to bizarre, polarized absolute statements. There are more shades of gray in reef keeping.

My mistake. I am truely sorry. I didn't realise that not using skimmers and other mechanical devices is a proven and tried position.

Then you should read a whole lot more, or pay more attention to what others write in direct response to you. There are tons of people who go skimmerless.

 

[Anonymous]

Sharky: Who said public aquariums do not use filtration? Not me. I even use filtration on my tanks. all of them even the FW.

You suggested that public aquariums use untreated water. All of the ones I know of do not use untreated water. They filter their water, purify it, and once it's in-system, filter it using very large-scale versions of the filtration that you so adamantly denounce.

 

[Anonymous]

Sharky: Who said public aquariums do not use filtration? Not me. I even use filtration on my tanks. all of them even the FW.

You suggested that public aquariums use untreated water. All of the ones I know of do not use untreated water. They filter their water, purify it, and once it's in-system, filter it using very large-scale versions of the filtration that you so adamantly denounce.

my specific statement was:

A Denver public aquarium was reported (swf thread) as using tap on their reef tanks but RO/DI on South American FW fish.

I guess that does state they do not use RO/DI for the reef tanks. But they might do some other type of filtering. So I guess it was a suggestion.

I guess it is past page 4.

again what appears to be important is the water in the tank. Anything else is moot.

 

[Anonymous]

Sharky: Who said public aquariums do not use filtration? Not me. I even use filtration on my tanks. all of them even the FW.

You suggested that public aquariums use untreated water. All of the ones I know of do not use untreated water. They filter their water, purify it, and once it's in-system, filter it using very large-scale versions of the filtration that you so adamantly denounce.

my specific statement was:

A Denver public aquarium was reported (swf thread) as using tap on their reef tanks but RO/DI on South American FW fish.

I guess that does state they do not use RO/DI for the reef tanks. But they might do some other type of filtering. So I guess it was a suggestion.

I guess it is past page 4.

again what appears to be important is the water in the tank. Anything else is moot.

Actually, your exact words were:

There are simply too many highly sucessful full reef tanks in private homes and public aqauriums for the use of un treated water...

 

[Anonymous]

Sharkky

Yep I said that. Of course I meant untreated tap water.

You may be correct there is no or at most only one public aquarium that uses untreated (non ro/di) tap water. And maybe I over stated. Obviously it only takes one to prove the point. But I have heard of several tanks on these boards and through emails that do use untreated tap.

And in my experience it does not take special super super tap water. Just too many people reporting too many tanks running in too many cities for too many years for it to be the water in any one location. In my experience, even though not reef, I should have had some problem in at least one city of the many I was in over the years I have done this. The problems just didn't happen.

 

[Anonymous]

In my experience, even though not reef, I should have had some problem in at least one city of the many I was in over the years I have done this. The problems just didn't happen.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of things a FO system will deal just fine with that a reef system wont.

 

[Anonymous]

In my experience, even though not reef, I should have had some problem in at least one city of the many I was in over the years I have done this. The problems just didn't happen.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of things a FO system will deal just fine with that a reef system wont.

Agreed. I guess a good example would be copper from the plumbing. Another could chlorimine/chloride.

And I only have one year with corals and only a month or two with hard corals.

That said

copper, chlorimine, chloride, lead is also poisonsous to FW fish and inverts. And to SW fish also affecting growth, life expenctancy and reproduction.

When I have used tap water filtered by plant life in numerous cities for year at a time and fish have lived for and reproduced for years. If tap water filtered by plant life had any of those problems, I should have noticed some ill effects.

But I didn't.

As verified by other hobbiest in different locations also.

The simple statement you made does not have any bearing on if untreated tap water, filtered by plant life in any city in the united states would have any adverse effects on reef tanks. Additionally, posters have reported excellent results for years using tap water and all that I have seen have thriving plant growth.

Yes it is not necessary to have tap water and plant growth.

And it is not necessary to have ro/di water

And it is not necessary to have skimmers.

My position is that newbies have no problem using tap water or growing algae. And in a few months you would not be able to tell the difference between tanks started with either method.

 

[Anonymous]

When I have used tap water filtered by plant life in numerous cities for year at a time and fish have lived for and reproduced for years. If tap water filtered by plant life had any of those problems, I should have noticed some ill effects.

Not necessarily.

The simple statement you made does not have any bearing on if untreated tap water, filtered by plant life in any city in the united states would have any adverse effects on reef tanks. Additionally, posters have reported excellent results for years using tap water and all that I have seen have thriving plant growth.

And people have reported massive problems using tap water. You keep trying to make it simpler than it is.

Yes it is not necessary to have tap water and plant growth.

And it is not necessary to have ro/di water

And it is not necessary to have skimmers.

No one has ever argued otherwise.

My position is that newbies have no problem using tap water or growing algae

And you are wrong. Many many people have had problems doing both.

 

[tinyreef]

My position is that newbies have no problem using tap water...

that's a bold statement. it might be true if water sources and makeup were identical everywhere but sadly they're not.

for instance, my water source for my office warns to run the tap for a few minutes due to the higher than acceptable levels of lead (Pb) found in the system. 8O

their warning is specifically titled for pregnant women and young children. no mention of corals and inverts but i can't believe it's too healthy for them either. actually, this contamination is not due to the water source but the ancient piping system throughout the town.

otoh, farm communities may experience higher levels of PO4 than average (as morgana pointed out). would that bode well for stonys?

bob, you're carte blanche saying tap is ok but that's only based upon your water company. it's just as inaccurate as me saying all tap is very bad because of my water company. go east from here a few miles to NYC and they rave about their tap. go west a few miles from here and it's too hard (well-water). and so on.

 

[HClH2OFish]

RCsheng --

Not playing devils advocate here, but I don't think that's what Bob is trying to say -- I believe he's saying that any detrimental junk in the water, no matter where it is, get's taken out of the system by the plant life -- hence no need for skimmers, et. al.

And that's where the majority of the issues come in -- new reefers setting up algae scrubbers from the onset aren't usually successful from what most of those w/years of experience have seen.

And hence the debate

 

[tinyreef]

ok, i see what you mean. 'that regardless of the basewater's condition the plant filtration cleans it up.'

and the plant's suppose to continue to stay healthy thrive and not crash as it continues to absorb all these toxins and gunk? hmmm...

yes, you're suppose to export it but which branch/sprig has the toxins/gunk? or is it equally spread throughout the plant structure just waiting for a spawning moment to re-release back into the system? hmmm...

i dunno, bob. looks kinda sketchy and i am an algae-scrubber guy. nutrient control, yes. contaminent removal? get a poly-filter or carbon.

 

[SpecialK]

As I said in the other thread I run Barebottom & Skimmerless with softies even though I dont recommend this for a newbie.

My biggest concern with skimmerless is oxygen Levels.
I have larger fish in my tank and one morning my Tasseled was near the top side ways I placed an air hose in my tank near him than he was fine. He looked like he was gasping for air.
I have kept an Air hose in my take from that day on with no problems but the way my acrylic top is I can get away with that. The Air hose runs the length of my tank in the back.

What do you think of oxygen levels in a skimmerless system?

Kaye

 

[Fatal Morgana]

>...What do you think of oxygen levels in a skimmerless system?

It depends on the oxygen demand in the tank (respiration and decomposition), and other factors such as wind speed across the water surface, amount of white caps (both are pretty small unless you have a huge tank), surface wave, circulation within the tank, and oxygen concentration gradient. There are a ton of oceangraphy/chemistry books and articles about it, and in most cases, it is not looking good when there are sudden oxygen demand, such as rottening food left on the sand.

 

[Anonymous]

We all can talk till we're blue in the face but Bob will keep on with his plant preachings. I've read his stance on two other boards about plants, use tap water to start the tank and replenish evap, no water changes, skimmerless, oyster shells...etc... Like a merry go round....round and round we go.

 

[Anonymous]

And you guys were so so close to figureing it out.

All I know is it works. And that is the bottom line.

 

[Anonymous]

And you guys were so so close to figureing it out.

All I know is it works. And that is the bottom line.

No bob, all you know is that it works for you and your current application.

There's a big difference.