to fatal morgana from newbies thread

[Anonymous]

And you guys were so so close to figureing it out.

All I know is it works. And that is the bottom line.

Unfortunately, though, that's not the bottom line, and that's why we keep banging our heads against the proverbial wall. Bob, you seem unwilling to an extreme to accept that yes, your system works for you, but it is not "standard" reefkeeping procedure, and in all likelihood will not give a new reefkeeper success.

Here, case in point. I moved from one city to another about 3 1/2 years ago. The cities are about 90mi apart. In my old place, I had 3 tanks set up, ALL using tapwater, 2 running skimmerless. I had almost no problems to speak of, and in fact the reef system had outstanding coral growth with almost no additives.

I moved to the new house, and re-did my systems. Basically combined bits and pieces of all of them into a 125 FOWLR. Filled the system with IO/tapwater mix, got it up and running, and almost immediately started having problems. Massive hair algae outbreaks, cloudy water, corals that had thrived and multiplied were suddenly limping along and barely surviving. Got an RO unit and started a series of large water changes. The system started perking up almost immediately. It's taken a couple of years, but things are finally settling back to normal in the system.

 

[Anonymous]

And you guys were so so close to figureing it out.

All I know is it works. And that is the bottom line.

Here, case in point. I moved from one city to another about 3 1/2 years ago. The cities are about 90mi apart. In my old place, I had 3 tanks set up, ALL using tapwater, 2 running skimmerless. I had almost no problems to speak of, and in fact the reef system had outstanding coral growth with almost no additives.

Here in Detroit, the city water quality changes from day to day due to the older water treatment plants and methods.

Even when I was living in the middle of no where on well water, my water changed by the season, mostly with the spring run-off into the aquafer.

 

[Anonymous]

And you guys were so so close to figureing it out.

All I know is it works. And that is the bottom line.

Unfortunately, though, that's not the bottom line, and that's why we keep banging our heads against the proverbial wall. Bob, you seem unwilling to an extreme to accept that yes, your system works for you, but it is not "standard" reefkeeping procedure, and in all likelihood will not give a new reefkeeper success.

Here, case in point. I moved from one city to another about 3 1/2 years ago. The cities are about 90mi apart. In my old place, I had 3 tanks set up, ALL using tapwater, 2 running skimmerless. I had almost no problems to speak of, and in fact the reef system had outstanding coral growth with almost no additives.

I moved to the new house, and re-did my systems. Basically combined bits and pieces of all of them into a 125 FOWLR. Filled the system with IO/tapwater mix, got it up and running, and almost immediately started having problems. Massive hair algae outbreaks, cloudy water, corals that had thrived and multiplied were suddenly limping along and barely surviving. Got an RO unit and started a series of large water changes. The system started perking up almost immediately. It's taken a couple of years, but things are finally settling back to normal in the system.

You see sharky you were so close to figureing it out. So so close.

I would expect something like this is very much possible with 100% water change and the plant life not having time to process it. But if you rely on water changes, reduced feeding, anaerobic bacteria (DSB) and so on to consume the nitrates, then your experience is possible. If you have gotten the plant life thriving then the hair algae would diminish and the corals thrive. The RO unit and the water changes undoubtly reduced the nitrates to where the system could consume them.

My position is simple that more plant life would have done the same thing without then need for the expense and possibility of failure of the mechanical RO unit. And without the shock to the system of the water changes.

And now you have a system that you think absolutely needs RO water. And therefore may not be available because the unit only produces a limited amount of that special water each day.

 

[Anonymous]

You see sharky you were so close to figureing it out. So so close.

I would expect something like this is very much possible with 100% water change and the plant life not having time to process it. But if you rely on water changes, reduced feeding, anaerobic bacteria (DSB) and so on to consume the nitrates, then your experience is possible. If you have gotten the plant life thriving then the hair algae would diminish and the corals thrive. The RO unit and the water changes undoubtly reduced the nitrates to where the system could consume them.

On the contrary, I was running a refugium with 3 different species of macroalgaes. They never flourished...UNTIL I switched to RO water.

My position is simple that more plant life would have done the same thing without then need for the expense and possibility of failure of the mechanical RO unit. And without the shock to the system of the water changes.

And now you have a system that you think absolutely needs RO water. And therefore may not be available because the unit only produces a limited amount of that special water each day.

See above comment.

 

[Anonymous]

So in other words, my anecdotal evidence completely contradicts your anecdotal evidence. Do you see why the administrators here are so frustrated with your giving 'advice'??? You climb your pulpit and preach that tapwater and macroalgaes will solve every reefkeeping problem, and possibly end world hunger as well (okay, that last bit was added simply to emphasize how single-minded you are), but in reality your experiences are just that--YOUR experiences.

Other hobbiests have other experiences, many of which directly contradict yours. Put plain and simple, a protein skimmer and the purest water possible are components of the 'best practices' method of starting into the reefkeeping hobby.

 

[tinyreef]

Put plain and simple, a protein skimmer and the purest water possible are components of the 'best practices' method of starting into the reefkeeping hobby.

i think bob's basic resistance to the majority is the 'best practices' statement. i think a better worded statement would be "the most commonly found, yet successful, approach to reefing".

bob, i don't think anyone here is saying that you can't accomplish reefing with tap and plant filtration. we're just saying that that approach may not be the best advice to give a beginner. i don't mean to be snobbish it's just that there are easier initial approaches to the hobby imho.

e.g. softies vs. sps, larger tank vs. smaller, photosynthetic vs. non-photos, etc.

are they exceptions? of course. but that's exactly what they are, exceptions. not the norm or average.

i think the NRF people take issue (with you bob) because the NRForum is beginners and is probably better served with discussing lay-ups versus the intricacies of a flying jordan dunk.

i disagree with you on the 'ease' of plant filtration. again, i'm sure it's successful for you as it has been for me. but ime it's a tuning not recommendable for someone who wants a nemo tank. jmo

 

[Anonymous]

So in other words, my anecdotal evidence completely contradicts your anecdotal evidence.

....

Absolutely not!!!!!!!!!!

Your anecdotal evidence completely agrees with mine.

What I recommend is newbiew establish a brand new system with plant life as the first thing. with tap water and allow that plant life to expand, filter and condition that water water. Then do the rest.

Your expereience was to setup an fully stocked and established system using water from another source. That is not what I tell newbies or anyone else. Further, if you had done nothing more than keep adding thriving plant life, you eventually would have had the thriving system you had before.

 

[Anonymous]

So in other words, my anecdotal evidence completely contradicts your anecdotal evidence.

....

Absolutely not!!!!!!!!!!

Your anecdotal evidence completely agrees with mine.

What I recommend is newbiew establish a brand new system with plant life as the first thing. with tap water and allow that plant life to expand, filter and condition that water water. Then do the rest.

Your expereience was to setup an fully stocked and established system using water from another source. That is not what I tell newbies or anyone else. Further, if you had done nothing more than keep adding thriving plant life, you eventually would have had the thriving system you had before.

Actually, when I re-set up the system, I used about 3/4 brand new substrate, new water, new tank. The only thing held over from the old systems was the live rock. It was not fully stocked by any stretch of the means. I kept one small colony of button polyps and one small colony of mushroom polyps just to have a visual 'monitor' of the water quality in-system.

And I did continue to replenish and restock healthy macros from thriving systems. They continued to die off...UNTIL I switched the system to RO water.

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, when I re-set up the system, I used about 3/4 brand new substrate, new water, new tank. The only thing held over from the old systems was the live rock. It was not fully stocked by any stretch of the means. I kept one small colony of button polyps and one small colony of mushroom polyps just to have a visual 'monitor' of the water quality in-system.

And I did continue to replenish and restock healthy macros from thriving systems. They continued to die off...UNTIL I switched the system to RO water.

I am glad you posted this and cleared up the misunderstand I had. Hard telling what happend there and completely different from my experience.

By reusing some of the substrait you should have had enough nutrients between that and the new tap to get the macros going.

I certainly understand your concerns now.

Again "my" method and advice is to get the plant life going and then do the rest. In this case the plant life was difficult to get going. I would have tried other lighting, other plant life, allowed the nusiance algaes to thrive until I got something I like thriving.

"My" system is to also do that before the Live Rock is added. There could have been some die off affecting the plant life. Of toxins released from the older sand you transferred also.

But I am confident that some plant life could have been established and flourished without the need for processed water. And I highly suspect the problems you experienced were from the LR and sand you reused. Once the plant life was thriving the entire system would have "come in" in a week or two. Meanwhile, with or without test kits or your added corals, the plants were visually telling you there was something not correct. I am sorry you had those problems.

I think that with you got the plant life going, there is now little or no need now for the RO water.

 

[Anonymous]

Again "my" method and advice is to get the plant life going and then do the rest. In this case the plant life was difficult to get going. I would have tried other lighting, other plant life, allowed the nusiance algaes to thrive until I got something I like thriving.

Tried lighting the refugium with incandescent "plant lights", regular fluorescent bulbs, fluorescent "plant light" bulbs, and two different types of PC lighting.

As for the nuisance algae, at one point the entire back glass of the tank was coated in hair algae at least 3" long. It was actually rather pretty, and waved in the current. 8O :?

"My" system is to also do that before the Live Rock is added. There could have been some die off affecting the plant life. Of toxins released from the older sand you transferred also.

The rock I used was fully cured and had little visible macro-fauna to begin with, so should have had minimal die-off. Re-used substrate was rinsed thoroughly in the old tank water to remove excess detritus.

But I am confident that some plant life could have been established and flourished without the need for processed water. And I highly suspect the problems you experienced were from the LR and sand you reused. Once the plant life was thriving the entire system would have "come in" in a week or two.

See above comments. This dragged on for literally months, with infusions of several different species of macroalgaes from several different sources over the course.

Meanwhile, with or without test kits or your added corals, the plants were visually telling you there was something not correct. I am sorry you had those problems.

Algaes aren't plants, but that's secondary to my point that all other things being equal, something in my tap water was causing my tank serious issues.

I think that with you got the plant life going, there is now little or no need now for the RO water.

Thanks, I'll stick to my RO unit though. The tap water caused an almost complete crash of my system, I'm almost positive from a heavy copper load (both from the municipal supply and my house pipes). The copper affected all invertebrates, as my mated pair of maroon clowns did great and never faltered, but all snails, all but one hermit crab, and all macroalgaes fizzled and died off.

 

[Anonymous]

Also forgot to add...when I first started the system, I tried skimmerless. After I got fed up and hooked my red sea berlin back up, things took another big leap forward.

 

[Anonymous]

Sharkky:

As I said I understand and am sorry you had those problems.

My outlook, operation, and thoughts are just different.


Yes you probably had something in the water killing the inverts. My position is that plant life would have removed whatever it was.

Obviously you had not trouble growing plant life on the back glass. In my current tank that is the in tank refugium. Full of chaeto as well as micro algaes on the back glass. In my case it is a welcome addition to my display. And nitrates are 0.0, and polyps and turbo snails are spreading, and hardies are growing.

So my advice to a newbie with that would still be to get other plant life thriving. And to not worry about the hair on the back.

It is my experience that when you get the plant life started and established before adding livestock, things are fine. But if you wait until livestock is added then it can tank many many months before the plant life catches up. As it did in my tank. Again the key is getting the palnt life thriving as the first thing.

I also heard of a newbie who used a outside spikot and a garden hose to fill his system. And no added plant life. And had all the problems you report here. Including invert die off. He then went with RO/DI, completely redid the system, and added a refugium. And now swears the RO/DI water made his tank. But he actually could not tell if it was the water or the addition of the refugium. Both changes were made at the same time.


And you are correct I stated the plants were giving a clue. I should have stated the plant life was telling ......

I can't get that right all the time but I do try.

 

[Anonymous]

double post

 

[Anonymous]

:sigh: I surrender. My head hurts from pounding it against the wall. You've completely missed the point. Again.

 

[Anonymous]

Sharkky:

As I said I understand and am sorry you had those problems.

My outlook, operation, and thoughts are just different.


Yes you probably had something in the water killing the inverts. My position is that plant life would have removed whatever it was.

He had 'plant life'.

I also heard of a newbie who used a outside spikot and a garden hose to fill his system. And no added plant life. And had all the problems you report here. Including invert die off. He then went with RO/DI, completely redid the system, and added a refugium. And now swears the RO/DI water made his tank. But he actually could not tell if it was the water or the addition of the refugium. Both changes were made at the same time.

Why don't you apply the same reasoning to your conclusions?

 

[Anonymous]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Sharkky:

As I said I understand and am sorry you had those problems.

My outlook, operation, and thoughts are just different.


Yes you probably had something in the water killing the inverts. My position is that plant life would have removed whatever it was.

He had 'plant life'.

I also heard of a newbie who used a outside spikot and a garden hose to fill his system. And no added plant life. And had all the problems you report here. Including invert die off. He then went with RO/DI, completely redid the system, and added a refugium. And now swears the RO/DI water made his tank. But he actually could not tell if it was the water or the addition of the refugium. Both changes were made at the same time.

Why don't you apply the same reasoning to your conclusions?

I didn't realize I stated any conclusion there. Just my opinion based on my experience.

I make those recommendations because in my experience where I change one thing and only one thing at a time. Then and only then I draw conclusions.

Examples:

I added buffer and only added buffer to raise my ph. a week later ph was back down again.

I added plant life to the display and only plant life. Just before lights out ph rose in a day from 7.8-7.4 to 8.4. And stayed there.

I added crushed oyster shells and only added crushed oyster shells. With 5x/hr circulation through the shells. Calcium rose to and stayed at 400ppm. Other tank with no oyster shells remained at 250-300ppm

I reduced feeding and only reduced feeding. Nitrates remained high (above 40ppm total nitrates)

I added an external refugium and moved the existing plant life there. And only added the refugium. nitrates remained high.


I added an in tank refigium with more plant life and higher lights with no other changes to the system. Nitrates went to and remained at 0.0.

I doubled my bioload with no change other changes. Ammonia and nitrItes remained at 0.0 nitrates bumped up to 20 then went back down. Therefore, the bioload and only the bioload caused the nitrates to go up to 20 them back down.

The bioload increase did not cause any increase in ammonia or nitrItes. Therefore, a tank where plant life is maintaining nitrates at 0.0, a doubling of the bioload will not increase ammonia or nitrItes but will result in a minor spike in nitrAtes.

As I said I change one thing and only one thing.

 

[Anonymous]

Sharkky:

As I said I understand and am sorry you had those problems.

My outlook, operation, and thoughts are just different.


Yes you probably had something in the water killing the inverts. My position is that plant life would have removed whatever it was.

He had 'plant life'.

I also heard of a newbie who used a outside spikot and a garden hose to fill his system. And no added plant life. And had all the problems you report here. Including invert die off. He then went with RO/DI, completely redid the system, and added a refugium. And now swears the RO/DI water made his tank. But he actually could not tell if it was the water or the addition of the refugium. Both changes were made at the same time.

Why don't you apply the same reasoning to your conclusions?

I didn't realize I stated any conclusion there. Just my opinion based on my experience.

I didn't say you stated a conclusion there.

 

[Anonymous]

Damn one more? :lol: :lol:

 

[Ben1]

I doubled my bioload with no change other changes. Ammonia and nitrItes remained at 0.0 nitrates bumped up to 20 then went back down. Therefore, the bioload and only the bioload caused the nitrates to go up to 20 them back down.

How can you prove it wasnt your denitrifing bacteria adjusting to the higher bio-load and was the macros that reduced the nitrate?

And now you have a system that you think absolutely needs RO water. And therefore may not be available because the unit only produces a limited amount of that special water each day.

I keep a 5 gal bucket full of RO/DI/DI all the time by having it all set up with a autoshut off and float valve. This is for my auto top off for my big tank and upstairs I always have a 33 gal trash can that fills in about 2 days. I usually always have it full tho...so I for one never run out of extra water.

FWIW, I have a 20G SPS reef and the only problem I have with it now is eradicating the grape calurpera that is terribly ugly in the display. Once this stuff gets out of hand and you decide you want it all out of the display all together how are you going to do it?