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Anonymous

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HClH2OFish":3reqy1c2 said:
Actually you go one block north of the Sun City Grand entrance on Bell and left at Sarival :) I'm in one of the new homes there....nice place but the F16's from Luke bug our dogs :)

And good lord man!! Don't you ever sleep?????

I was stationed at Luke last half of 1973
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Again Bob, chooses to post, but to ignore any actual evidence presented and to attempt to stay frimly in the realm of 'opinion'.

beaslbob":i6lt3fdk said:
Guy":i6lt3fdk said:
The $1000 in equipment is to keep your animals thriving and beautiful so you don't have to spend $500 a year replacing them and you can actually make a couple G's propogating them.

In the long run it's actually quite cost effective.

No Guy. It is not about replacing any more livestock with these systems then with the expensive, complicated systems.

I think guy was talking specifically about your system.

It is about the water quality in a stable system with little to no maintenance (operator interference) required.

You keep saying stuff like this, when the reality of the situation is that gadget systems and your system often have about the same amount of maintenance.

To me a system that is delicately balanced and being maintained by numerous mechanical devices will kill many more fish and corals than one the is maintaining its conditions without human intervention.

Since you have never kept such a system I am at a loss as to how you can make such a judgment. PLUS, you completely ignore the fact that many people with such systems experience no where near the losses that you have experienced.
And, your system would kill bunches of animals without human intervention. All glass boxes in homes full of ocean life need human intervention - to imply that somehow what you are advocating somehow needs no human intervention or little human intervention is grossly misleading.
 
A

Anonymous

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JDM":2gil65q2 said:
I liked this reply

bob":2gil65q2 said:
So there is what I consider a lot of area and very good water flow through the shells.
randy":2gil65q2 said:
OK, then the pH won't drop too much inside of it, and dissolution should be minimal, unless the calcium, pH, alkalinity, or somecombination thereof drops low enough in the flowing water to cause some dissolution.

At a pH of 7.9, calcium 250 ppm, and an alkalinity of 2.0 meq/L, the shells may begin to dissolve. It does not happen when the pH, calcium, and alkalinity are normal for seawater.

thanks as I can no longer get to that link. Randy was confusing Anaerobic DSB operation with my aerobic operation. Hence the posts above. Normal sea level values are ph 8.2-8.4 cal 400-425 and alk around 2.5 meg/l. Ph does drop to 7.9 and lower by Randy in shallower lagoons at night. I find it hard to believe the same thing does not happen in shallower reefs full of various plant life.

Whatever is happening, Randy does state that the shells may in fact be dissolving. And my values are being maintained at near ocean values.
 
A

Anonymous

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I don't believe Randy was confused at all and he specifically stated that the shells will not dissolve at the water parameters you claim your tank has.

I'm absolutely convinced that your calcium source is your tap water. In my opinion your available calcium level would actually be higher without the oyster shells.
 
A

Anonymous

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Lawdawg":2hw74nqn said:
beaslbob":2hw74nqn said:
Sure. The real question is on a home display system do I want to spend $1000 just to get a say 10% growth increase. And in the process wind up with a system that is always needing adjustments, and constant maintenance. To that is simply not worth it.

I have already answered your why questions before. the anser to why is always because.

10% growth in what time frame? A month? A year?
Should have said growth rate. sorry
If you only get a 10% growth in a matter of months (depending on the species) on your coral, regardless of your equipment you are doing something seriously wrong anyway. Cripes, I get 10% or better every month on my Xenia alone. Hey, I bet I'm not the only one either, that would explain all the reefers who "frag" excess growth!/sarcasm

Reefkeeping is not an experiment in Darwinism, where only the hardiest animals "survive" because you are unable or unwilling to take the time and money to maintain a more viable environment. Stick to keeping bettas in glass jars if you want cheap entertainment.

Of course you are going to spend the $1000 you mention anyway bob, How much have you spent already to replace the animals you have lost? I suppose I can take the time to look up your other posts on other boards and come up with a figure if your memory fails you.
After the macros got the nitrates down to 0-5 ppm about $10. Meanwhile a poster on another board reported losing all fish on a two year old system after adding adding a cleaner crew. No mention of refugium, macors or other plant life. So by using the same logic you are here, the cleaner crew crashed a two year old system.
 
A

Anonymous

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You know one things I see common to all these posts is the lack of any analytical analysis. So let me try to put some numbers on all this.

Say two tanks. both with 400-425 ppm calcium and 2-2.5 meg/l alk. One using a two part or whatever to maintain the system with a constant ph of 8.4. The other with crushed oyster shells and sps's where 99% of the calcium carbonate in theoyster shells and 1% in the sps's. And a nightly ph drop limited by the dissolving of the calcium carbonate. And assuming the calcium carbonate buildup in the corals occurs in the daytime in both.

How much slower does the sps's grow with the nightly ph drop?







































my guess about 1%

Bob
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Guy":21evxu1h said:
I don't believe Randy was confused at all and he specifically stated that the shells will not dissolve at the water parameters you claim your tank has.

I'm absolutely convinced that your calcium source is your tap water. In my opinion your available calcium level would actually be higher without the oyster shells.


Guy the control tank remained at 250-300ppm as the display rose to and stayed at 400. Same water added at the same rate to both. And more calcium load in the 55g.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Your control tank looks nothing like your display tank so how can it possibly be a control?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
beaslbob":6845pwg2 said:
You know one things I see common to all these posts is the lack of any analytical analysis. So let me try to put some numbers on all this.

Say two tanks. both with 400-425 ppm calcium and 2-2.5 meg/l alk. One using a two part or whatever to maintain the system with a constant ph of 8.4. The other with crushed oyster shells and sps's where 99% of the calcium carbonate in theoyster shells and 1% in the sps's. And a nightly ph drop limited by the dissolving of the calcium carbonate. And assuming the calcium carbonate buildup in the corals occurs in the daytime in both.

How much slower does the sps's grow with the nightly ph drop?







































my guess about 1%

Bob

You are making guesses and claiming to be making analytical analysis? Come on Bob. :roll:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
beaslbob":8bdd9802 said:
JDM":8bdd9802 said:
I liked this reply

bob":8bdd9802 said:
So there is what I consider a lot of area and very good water flow through the shells.
randy":8bdd9802 said:
OK, then the pH won't drop too much inside of it, and dissolution should be minimal, unless the calcium, pH, alkalinity, or somecombination thereof drops low enough in the flowing water to cause some dissolution.

At a pH of 7.9, calcium 250 ppm, and an alkalinity of 2.0 meq/L, the shells may begin to dissolve. It does not happen when the pH, calcium, and alkalinity are normal for seawater.

thanks as I can no longer get to that link. Randy was confusing Anaerobic DSB operation with my aerobic operation.

He was doing no such thing.

Hence the posts above. Normal sea level values are ph 8.2-8.4 cal 400-425 and alk around 2.5 meg/l. Ph does drop to 7.9 and lower by Randy in shallower lagoons at night. I find it hard to believe the same thing does not happen in shallower reefs full of various plant life.

Yet you still ignore the other parameters that Randy says are needed to get the shells to dissolve?

Whatever is happening, Randy does state that the shells may in fact be dissolving. And my values are being maintained at near ocean values.

He states very bluntly that they will not be dissolving with normal ocean values. How are you missing that?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
beaslbob":1ak5v5rw said:
Guy":1ak5v5rw said:
I don't believe Randy was confused at all and he specifically stated that the shells will not dissolve at the water parameters you claim your tank has.

I'm absolutely convinced that your calcium source is your tap water. In my opinion your available calcium level would actually be higher without the oyster shells.


Guy the control tank remained at 250-300ppm as the display rose to and stayed at 400. Same water added at the same rate to both. And more calcium load in the 55g.

You have no control tank.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
righty:

Go back and read that thread. It took several of my posts before he realized I have an aerobic operation where there is no ph drop in the shells.

The shells are dissolving whether or not anyone considers it normal ocean values.

My sps is growing also.

Corraline is slowly spreading.

a halimedia is showing slow growth.

will All that continue probably. Will you ever admit it probably not. Will things have little cycles sure.

but I do have 400-420ppm calcium and 2 meg/l alk. ph of 8.4 just before lights out and nightly ph drop.

what I don't have is $s/pound live rock, special super duper live sand, Kalk drippers, manual dosing, automated dosing, calcium reactors and so on. I don't even have to scour the nation driving 100s of miles to find that special rare sand. You know the one that says right onthe bag "not recommend for aquarium use" :lol:

My entire sand and filter system cost $20 plus the cost of a mag 5 pump.

So I'll just let the corraline and sps grow. And not worry about the calcium and alk values. And all the other equipment and methods either.
 

HClH2OFish

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beaslbob":2qazsrr0 said:
what I don't have is $s/pound live rock, special super duper live sand, Kalk drippers, manual dosing, automated dosing, calcium reactors and so on. I don't even have to scour the nation driving 100s of miles to find that special rare sand. You know the one that says right onthe bag "not recommend for aquarium use" :lol:

My entire sand and filter system cost $20 plus the cost of a mag 5 pump.

So I'll just let the corraline and sps grow. And not worry about the calcium and alk values. And all the other equipment and methods either.

Hmmm...the attitude that comes through is that it's stupid to buy LR or LS -- While I will agree that it's not needed, it does have benefits, the biggest one IMHO being biodiversity. Your tank, with no LR put into it will have none. Dead sand, dead rock. Sure it will get bacteria and turn to 'Live' sand and rock but no way will you ever get all the nifty critters that someone using LR and LS will.

Personally, I don't have a problem with 'dead' sand....but with every sand purchase at my LFS, I also have them bag up a cup or two of sand from one of their established tanks. They do it for free, so it's not a big deal if you're gonna scream about $$ again.

As far as your coralline and SPS, I have yet to see anything to support any claims you've posited.

And you can not worry about all the other methods all you want Bob...that's your right. What you *shouldn't* be doing is trying to build a base that known, proven methods are either unnecessary or unneeded. You advocate a manner of reefkeeping that is poor husbandry...plain and simple. Your last 'experiment' to mess with levels in your tank resulted in yet more losses.

Sadly, it seems to me after reading numerous posts on this and other boards that if you actually aren't a troll (jury is still out on that one for me at least) then you suffer seriously from sheer stubborn bullheadedness and are unwilling to listen/believe anything you feel doesn't agree with you. It also appears your rule for 'thriving tank' = "Hey! It hasn't died yet!"

I think some of what you're doing has merits Bob, but none of it is groundbreaking in the least.

Gah..I'd continue, but back to work :roll: :roll: :roll:
 
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beaslbob":16mi1u7r said:
And not worry about the calcium and alk values. And all the other equipment and methods either.

I'm glad to see that we agree that you don't really care about maintaining high quality water. That would fully explain your non-existant tank maintenance routine.

Those of us that are serious about the hobby try to do what we can to keep our animals healthy and beautiful.

Would you happen to have a current picture of your SPS that could be compared to the old? I don't believe we agree on the definition of what good growth is and it would be interesting to see what you consider good growth. We have the pic from 6 months ago, it should be quite the impressive colony by now.
 
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beaslbob":2oigaw6q said:
righty:

Go back and read that thread. It took several of my posts before he realized I have an aerobic operation where there is no ph drop in the shells.

And here is what he wrote when he did:
OK, then the pH won't drop too much inside of it, and dissolution should be minimal, unless the calcium, pH, alkalinity, or somecombination thereof drops low enough in the flowing water to cause some dissolution.

At a pH of 7.9, calcium 250 ppm, and an alkalinity of 2.0 meq/L, the shells may begin to dissolve. It does not happen when the pH, calcium, and alkalinity are normal for seawater.


You keep using Randy as support when in reality what he wrote is not support for you. According to that post post (and his recent response to me) you won't get much dissolving at all with the parameters you say you have.

The shells are dissolving whether or not anyone considers it normal ocean values.

Again, you have no evidence of that, just post hoc ergo procter hoc. Again, you won't even do the simplest experiments of testing your tap water or removing the shells to see if ca drops.

My sps is growing also.

Corraline is slowly spreading.

a halimedia is showing slow growth.

will All that continue probably.

Yep. And I think none of it has to do with oyster shells or plant life.

Will you ever admit it probably not.

I have admitted to it from the beginning of responding to you - that you still fail to understand that is baffling and frustrating.

Will things have little cycles sure.

You really shouldn't. A tank should become pretty stable unless there are problems.

but I do have 400-420ppm calcium and 2 meg/l alk. ph of 8.4 just before lights out and nightly ph drop.

And I don't know what that has to do with anything other than to show that Randy says you will only have minimal dissolving at those levels.

what I don't have is $s/pound live rock, special super duper live sand, Kalk drippers, manual dosing, automated dosing, calcium reactors and so on. I don't even have to scour the nation driving 100s of miles to find that special rare sand. You know the one that says right onthe bag "not recommend for aquarium use" :lol:

And you also have a euthrophic tank.

I am concerned with your above characterizations. You are too focused on the people in the hobby that are fad followers. Cheap live rock is available, so is sand, very few people think buying live sand is a good idea. I have no manual dosing and no manual top off and piece of mind that my tank levels remain stable through my inexpensive auto top off/kalk reactor and DIY ca reactor.
You also fail to take into account the differences in running a system with 250 gallons, like mine, and a system of less than 55 gallons, like yours. On a larger system, automation can really cut down on regular maintenance.
You may not like automation, and that is your prerogative, but I don't understand you disparaging it of itself. It does have its place.

My entire sand and filter system cost $20 plus the cost of a mag 5 pump.

Great. Not sure what that has to do with anything, but great.

So I'll just let the corraline and sps grow. And not worry about the calcium and alk values. And all the other equipment and methods either.

What are you talking about - you do worry about the ca levels. Your tank is 2 years old and only now are you beginning to see coral line?

No one wants you to worry. What people seem to want is for you to stop picking and choosing your evidence, to stop claiming you have been scientific, and to stop stating your ideas as fact even though the evidence contradicts you.
 
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Anonymous

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HClH20..I used to live in Peoria..my parents live just outside of Sun City (yuck) I hated that area when I was a teenager..the worse drivers in the world are the old people..And they would say teenagers are bad...Geezus how many accidents did I avoid due to sudden abrupt lane changes from the geezer in front of me :roll: anyways Righty I used to live near your grandparents and I had a friend that live out your way HCl...Lots of Mexicans in Surprise (not that it matters just noticed it was mainly comprised of latin people)

Righty":qil2enlb said:
No one wants you to worry. What people seem to want is for you to stop picking and choosing your evidence, to stop claiming you have been scientific, and to stop stating your ideas as fact even though the evidence contradicts you.
Well put and 100% accurate depiction of the ongoing situation
 

HClH2OFish

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LordNikon":3twv77u7 said:
HClH20..I used to live in Peoria..my parents live just outside of Sun City (yuck) I hated that area when I was a teenager..the worse drivers in the world are the old people..And they would say teenagers are bad...Geezus how many accidents did I avoid due to sudden abrupt lane changes from the geezer in front of me :roll: anyways Righty I used to live near your grandparents and I had a friend that live out your way HCl...Lots of Mexicans in Surprise (not that it matters just noticed it was mainly comprised of latin people)

Righty":3twv77u7 said:
No one wants you to worry. What people seem to want is for you to stop picking and choosing your evidence, to stop claiming you have been scientific, and to stop stating your ideas as fact even though the evidence contradicts you.
Well put and 100% accurate depiction of the ongoing situation


LOL....well Surprise is growing like mad...still tons of old folks to watch out for...and the Mexicans in surprise are a big majority (I'm one..lol) There are more in El Mirage actually what with all the new construction.

Anyway...in regards to the post *ahem*

Bob will never stop doing what he's doing. He is getting attention here and somehow feels that massive postings will give him credibility to the unwary. Maybe a few less postings and more maintenance on that eutrophic lagoon (to borrow a phrase) would be beneficial to the inhabitants.
 

polcat

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Righty":1qps0o16 said:
Polcat - what corals are you planning on keeping in this tank? We spend much time on bob discussing his ca levels without paying too much attention to the idea that he really has a very low level of animals that need ca.

I doubt bob's method will support a full blown SPS tanks so I'm going with low calc, low flow, low light, low maintanence loving corals, like fake ones (just kidding).

Sorry I haven't posted lately been busy setting up the nano. I re-tested my tap water as follows:

TDS 450
ORP 619 (yikes!)
PH 8.05
Ca 150
alk 2.0

I mixed up Instant Ocean:

PH 8.3
Ca 380
alk 2.9

So there is the intial water parameters and what my top off water will look like. I used calibrated meters and salifert kits.
 

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