I would also cook the rock, and a skimmer isnt needed for this process. Just take it all and put it in freshly mixed RO/DI salt water with a heater and pwerhead. Leave it in there for about 1 month. Shaking it all very well every few days. The bacteria in the rock will push the detritus out of the rock. Change the water 100% once a month and keep the container in the dark 24/7. Your done once there is no detritus on the bottom of the container after a month. Usually 6-12 months to DIR. If I was you I would do half and then the rest when you put the freshly cured rock in.
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Righty":3ceippnd said:PLB,
If there are no nutrients in the water column, how is adding macros going to help?
There are nutrients in the water column. Feeding the algea and the corals. He doesn't like the algae so get those nutrients consumed by more desirable plant life like plant life in another location.
Gatorracer. Sorry and I know you don't agree with all I say. I just find it fustrating that numerous hobbiests have had your same exact experience yet Rob keeps getting advice that ignores that experience. With the resulting fustration and experiences Rob has had.
beaslbob":1gxjy15t said:Righty":1gxjy15t said:PLB,
If there are no nutrients in the water column, how is adding macros going to help?
There are nutrients in the water column. Feeding the algea and the corals. He doesn't like the algae so get those nutrients consumed by more desirable plant life like plant life in another location.
He is reading not testable nutrients in the WC.
Righty":mf1s31ah said:beaslbob":mf1s31ah said:Righty":mf1s31ah said:PLB,
If there are no nutrients in the water column, how is adding macros going to help?
There are nutrients in the water column. Feeding the algea and the corals. He doesn't like the algae so get those nutrients consumed by more desirable plant life like plant life in another location.
He is reading not testable nutrients in the WC.
Which means the existing corals and hair algae is consuming those nutrients down to unmeasurable levels. Get more desiabe plant life consuming those nutrients and the hair algaes will be staved. And hopefully the nutrients would still be at unmeasureable levels in the process.
beaslbob":1om3vir2 said:I just find it fustrating that numerous hobbiests have had your same exact experience yet Rob keeps getting advice that ignores that experience.
...and I'm sure many experienced reef hobbiests here and at other boards find it frustrating that they have "been there - done that" with the whole algae filtration thing, and have tried to explain the limitations of that type of filtration to you (repeatedly), yet you continue to dispense many of the same misconceptions over and over again as "advise" whenever you have an opportunity, clearly ignoring their collective experience...
beaslbob":2rra53kh said:Get more desiabe plant life consuming those nutrients and the hair algaes will be staved.
Corallines, macros, etc. are never going to outcompete hair algae for nutrients. Not unless they are getting far more light, or there's something eating the hair algae and not the macros/corallines.
beaslbob":10jckn9g said:Righty":10jckn9g said:beaslbob":10jckn9g said:Righty":10jckn9g said:PLB,
If there are no nutrients in the water column, how is adding macros going to help?
There are nutrients in the water column. Feeding the algea and the corals. He doesn't like the algae so get those nutrients consumed by more desirable plant life like plant life in another location.
He is reading not testable nutrients in the WC.
Which means the existing corals and hair algae is consuming those nutrients down to unmeasurable levels. Get more desiabe plant life consuming those nutrients and the hair algaes will be staved. And hopefully the nutrients would still be at unmeasureable levels in the process.
So you think the nutrients are been used by the HA before he can test for them? How do you explain his 0 readings after he scrubbed the rock clean of HA, an the 0 readings while it was growing to its current state after the scrubbing?
It seems far more likely to me that the algae is getting its nutrients from what it is attached too.
Righty":1gl2emcr said:...
So you think the nutrients are been used by the HA before he can test for them? How do you explain his 0 readings after he scrubbed the rock clean of HA, an the 0 readings while it was growing to its current state after the scrubbing?
Because the algae was growing. :roll:
It seems far more likely to me that the algae is getting its nutrients from what it is attached too.
And if desirable plant life was in there consuming those nutrients, the hair algae would have never had a chance to get established. If preditors were eating the algae and other plant life was in there, the other plant life would consume the nutrients. If the hair algae had no light and other plant life had light, the hair algae would not be there. Etc Etc Etc.
beaslbob":2rfu2hfd said:Righty":2rfu2hfd said:...
So you think the nutrients are been used by the HA before he can test for them? How do you explain his 0 readings after he scrubbed the rock clean of HA, an the 0 readings while it was growing to its current state after the scrubbing?
Because the algae was growing. :roll:
That doesn't deserve a rolleyes, and using it makes you seem more trollish and at least as knee jerky and dogmatic as you accuse others as being.
Furthermore, it doesn't even address the issue I am bringing up. Scenario: fresh scrubbed rock, readings of 0, HA grows even with 0 readings - where is it getting its nutrients from?
It seems far more likely to me that the algae is getting its nutrients from what it is attached too.
And if desirable plant life was in there consuming those nutrients, the hair algae would have never had a chance to get established.
Nope. If the nutrients are in the rock, no amount of macros in another part of the tank are going to help.
If preditors were eating the algae and other plant life was in there, the other plant life would consume the nutrients.
Not if the nutrients are in the rock.
While I see a potential need for refugiums in some cases, I don't think it would help in this case. If the HA is actually pulling nutrients from the live rock, which by process of deduction is the last thing in Rob's tank to be replaced, putting "plant life" in other parts of the tank is useless.
We all know that Rob tried EVERYTHING else to no avail. "Cooking" the LR seems like a good idea for one. Killing the HA without any light would be a logical step, and keeping the good bacteria or reviving it would be excellent.
I'd also like to take a "core" sample of your live rock too. I'm wondering if you just got a really bad batch some how, and the rock itself is giving it off. If you were to "cook" this rock, it would be interesting to note the PO4 levels in the container after the HA is killed off to see if it's still leaching it back into your water.
~wings~
We all know that Rob tried EVERYTHING else to no avail. "Cooking" the LR seems like a good idea for one. Killing the HA without any light would be a logical step, and keeping the good bacteria or reviving it would be excellent.
I'd also like to take a "core" sample of your live rock too. I'm wondering if you just got a really bad batch some how, and the rock itself is giving it off. If you were to "cook" this rock, it would be interesting to note the PO4 levels in the container after the HA is killed off to see if it's still leaching it back into your water.
~wings~
Rob_Reef_Keeper":20sclhqc said:I do not have much of a clean up crew remaining.
IMO this is a contributing factor to the problem. IME keeping your algae issues under control is a balance between nutrient management and grazing.
beaslbob":1r4fm4do said:And if desirable plant life was in there consuming those nutrients, the hair algae would have never had a chance to get established.
Nonsense. In a mature tank, grazers (pods, snails, etc.) that are eating the turf/film algaes (and not eating the macros) are what keep the simpler, more efficient algae forms from taking over. Remove all the grazers from your tank and see which algaes win out.
rob...hate to say it, but maybe you need to find another Hobby? lol...just kidding ya.
I have read your posts for a while now, and i feel for ya. i am getting as frustrated reading your posts as you are experiencing this.
Hope you get it all under control soon, as I see you arent enjoing yourself as much as you should considering hobbies are supposed to be fun.
I know, i was real helpful :roll:
I have read your posts for a while now, and i feel for ya. i am getting as frustrated reading your posts as you are experiencing this.
Hope you get it all under control soon, as I see you arent enjoing yourself as much as you should considering hobbies are supposed to be fun.
I know, i was real helpful :roll:
and it is exactly that idea that has gotten you all this fustration. Whether or not you like it, whether or not it is currently popular, you still have a closed aquatic environment with a bioload. There is no know man made mechanism to remove the nutrients being generated. Some will always remain to fuel the plant life.Rob_Reef_Keeper":16bpde28 said:The bottom line is the excess nutrients and fuel. If they are controlled and removed then no plant life will exist.
As you have found out numerous time with different setups, you either get the plant life you want or the plant life you don't.
I hope you can find the plant life you like and (finally) be happy with your tank.
I'm bring this up because I just happen to have two (2) tds meters.
I have a new ro/di unit that came with a HM tds meter and I already had a Smart tds. I took both out to where I make my pure water. Both read at 0 ppm. Brought both inside to where I have my pure water stored at the moment, the container that I mix my sw in. The HM goes from 0 to 1 flickering back and forth, so I figure a .5 reading for it. The other goes between 7 and 8. I just washed and scrubed that container out before adding the new water to it and I no clue as to which of the two meters is the better one, but I have a feeling it's the HM.
Maybe, just maybe, Rob's meter is off........and he could use a second meter....just to check if his is off also.
On another note, I have the same problem with snails that Rob has, they never seem to live longer than a month.
I have a new ro/di unit that came with a HM tds meter and I already had a Smart tds. I took both out to where I make my pure water. Both read at 0 ppm. Brought both inside to where I have my pure water stored at the moment, the container that I mix my sw in. The HM goes from 0 to 1 flickering back and forth, so I figure a .5 reading for it. The other goes between 7 and 8. I just washed and scrubed that container out before adding the new water to it and I no clue as to which of the two meters is the better one, but I have a feeling it's the HM.
Maybe, just maybe, Rob's meter is off........and he could use a second meter....just to check if his is off also.
On another note, I have the same problem with snails that Rob has, they never seem to live longer than a month.
I doubt there are any two TDS meters calibrated the same way. That 'ppm number' that they display is only a guess based upon conductivity. If you have ions in the water with different solute conductive properties than what the meter is designed for, you'll get wild readings.
Plus, TDS meters don't measure particles that don't contribute to the conductivity.
Plus, TDS meters don't measure particles that don't contribute to the conductivity.
beaslbob":3iuwy3gu said:Whether or not you like it, whether or not it is currently popular, you still have a closed aquatic environment with a bioload. There is no know man made mechanism to remove the nutrients being generated. Some will always remain to fuel the plant life.
Whether or not you like it, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it, there are plenty of people running reef tanks so nutrient poor these days they can't even grow macros, hair algae, etc. Some of these folks are achieving a level of success with certain corals that we never even thought possible not so many years ago. They're using some of those non-existent man-made nutrient removal mechanisms like protein skimmers, activated carbon, phosphate absorbers, etc. They're also using purified source water and good husbandry practices <gasp>...
beaslbob":3iuwy3gu said:As you have found out numerous time with different setups, you either get the plant life you want or the plant life you don't.
Just because you don't understand how to implement them doesn't mean other choices don't exist.
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