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If I did, and the fish and game officials knew I did, why wasn't I charged?
That's a good queston isn't it. It's the question we are looking into. So far, no one has found a F@W that knew or anyone else for that matter.
Assume I kept the groupers alive in a live well... why wasn't I ordered to release them immediately when I sent the F&G my grouper list?
Because no one stopped you at the dock "hen house", there was no one there, and the charter boat was the only ones that knew. The charter boat wasn't about to turn themselves in.
"He lists only about 8 corals returned that were over 20cm, or 8 inches. "
Liquid4ce":sjg1pagl said:
Looks to me like you didn't send in your grouper list until almost week later,
week of Feb 21 - SECOND trip with truck to collect corals (? lbs taken)
March 3 - Mr. Borneman's inventory submitted
Does not matter. If you were lucky enough to not get caught, don't be stupid enough to brag about it later.
Liquid4ce":2biki8o4 said:
also, like ive mentioned, his permit doesnt state that he cant have species over 20cm, but that is because his permit was supposed to let him collect the leftovers from the canal himself, but he wasnt able to dive, so he had "special permision" to collect from the lab, all the corals that were under 20cm, couldnt be relocated, so he was welcome to them.
March 3 - Mr. Borneman's inventory submitted
These are the rare, endangered corals?
March 8, 2004 - post to Michigan Reefers
This is a request for hobbyists to donate corals to ReefSavers?
Ok, so these are corals that are not supposed to contaminate each other? Where you are supposed to have negative pressure rooms?
These are the rare, endangered corals?
March 8, 2004 - post to Michigan Reefers
This is a request for hobbyists to donate corals to ReefSavers?
Ok, so these are corals that are not supposed to contaminate each other? Where you are supposed to have negative pressure rooms?
Liquid4ce":2xyq1d3m said:
stretch
Let's just forget the whole thing. If we demand that they be returned, this kid will probably raise a big stink. Plus we'll have to take the risk of shipping and pay to do that. If we justify that, we'll have to explain how this whole mess happened in the first place and tell everyone how bad we screwed up and we'll be held accountable and liable.
Let's just forget that it happend, not tell anyone, and that way we are not in any trouble for letting some kid pull this one over on us.
Aerosmith":19lolxit said:
Yes
Yes, but now I'm thinking that was for a different project.
Good for you for asking these questions! I don't think enough people are paying attention to what a potential contamination nightmare this was. There were NO negative pressure rooms.
Not potential
it was impossible to not contaminate them.
This is the same agency of the federal government that controls groundings, commercial catch limits, commercial tropical fish limits, property values, commercial dive operations, recreational fishing regulations, demands that sewer systems are installed, gets huge kick backs from developers, etc
All under the pretention of saving the reef.
Those corals were mandated for restoration, restoration of the reef, restoration that same agency of the federal government made the Navy pay to do.
Those corals were not mandated for any experiments in any "facility", tropical fish warehouse, nothing.
That same agency would have a lot to explain if this was known. They did not want it known. They did not want anyone to know they screwed up this bad.
.
it was impossible to not contaminate them.
This is the same agency of the federal government that controls groundings, commercial catch limits, commercial tropical fish limits, property values, commercial dive operations, recreational fishing regulations, demands that sewer systems are installed, gets huge kick backs from developers, etc
All under the pretention of saving the reef.
Those corals were mandated for restoration, restoration of the reef, restoration that same agency of the federal government made the Navy pay to do.
Those corals were not mandated for any experiments in any "facility", tropical fish warehouse, nothing.
That same agency would have a lot to explain if this was known. They did not want it known. They did not want anyone to know they screwed up this bad.
.
Yeah, I agree that contamination was likely inevitable considering the way things were set up... but we're still not even sure if Mr. Borneman's project ever really intended the corals to be used for restoration. And it seems like we're not the only ones confused. Look at the notes in the margins of the Permit Application....
Mr. Borneman appears to have gotten too excited, over reached.
Mr. Borneman's corals were supposed to NOT be the corals over 20cm (=/- 8") and therefore NOT the corals mandated for restoration.
His corals would never have been for restoration.
If Mr. Borneman did not take corals that were over 20cm, why did Mr. Koch return corals to Mr. Watson at Mote Marine lab that were over 20cm.
The corals Mr. Borneman was supposed to take (under 20cm) were never mandated for restoration. They were permitted for the long term study that Mr. Borneman described in his permit application.
Which says:
Corals will be put into permanent culture at the designated facility (Reef Savers, Inc.) and used to establish clonal lines of coral for disease and bleaching research in the scientific community as part of .......
.
Mr. Borneman's corals were supposed to NOT be the corals over 20cm (=/- 8") and therefore NOT the corals mandated for restoration.
His corals would never have been for restoration.
If Mr. Borneman did not take corals that were over 20cm, why did Mr. Koch return corals to Mr. Watson at Mote Marine lab that were over 20cm.
The corals Mr. Borneman was supposed to take (under 20cm) were never mandated for restoration. They were permitted for the long term study that Mr. Borneman described in his permit application.
Which says:
Corals will be put into permanent culture at the designated facility (Reef Savers, Inc.) and used to establish clonal lines of coral for disease and bleaching research in the scientific community as part of .......
.
Cracker2":3d4dxykq said:
Unless someone believes that you can take a coral, put it in a warehouse with all sorts of different corals from all over the world, then use them for restoration.
I don't even believe Mr. Borneman believes that one.
Mr. Borneman knew where these corals were going, he knew exactly what the conditons were. He also knew the limitations of those conditions.
There is only one reason someone, knowing the conditions would make it impossible, would put something like that in their permit application.
.
Well, the systems were 1) not in separate rooms and 2) were actually stacked over each other (you can see this in pictures shown during the IMAC 2004 lecture on DVD). With all the great surges they have, I just see no way water could have not jumped from tank to tank. Not to mention, there are all sorts of pathogens that can be airborne.
Ok, I just got limited permission to post some insight Dennis Tagrin shared with both me and Steven Pro in an email to us both. The email was a bit longer than this, but this was the information on the contamination issue that Mr. Targin has given me permission to share:
Dennis Tagrin":2e2b1a3i said:
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