Should people that own fish/coral stores be allowed to buy from members on MR?

[Josh]

Josh whats the difference between buying and selling from someone who is getting out of hobby as opposed to a person just trying to sell something cheap to hook up fellow members? Isnt it all the same in the end?

I think if a store wants to buy a full tank with equipment back from a member who is getting out of the hobby that is fine. In fact, I know a lot of our vendors do this. They basically help set up the tank, and then when the person doesn't want it anymore they will buy it back and then resell the parts.

What is totally different is someone who represents themselves as a hobbyist (making no mention of the store or small operation they run) buying up certain types of products wherever they can in an attempt to corner the market. Imagine if you were going to sell your tank to me and I told you it was for my kid and I didn't have much money could you give me a discount on it, and then I took it and sold it in a store. Do you think that is good for the community?

As I've said before, there are a bunch of things that are fine, but some of this behavior is so tacky, disrespectful and bordering on illegal that we won't allow it here.

 

[jerl77]

i think we should band vendors from buying stuff yes no? new poll?

 

[Galantra]

Yea I agree with you on that Josh, But its hard to regulate on peoples actions now a days. I know I try to be the best reefer when it comes to my fellow members I just hope I get the same I put out.

 

[mr_X]

so you think they buy them from you for 10 bucks and turn around and sell them for 20 bucks if fair? mr x

absolutely. i have people that come to my house to do just that. they buy things off of me because they like them, and then i see them selling them to someone else for more money. if i made what i wanted to make, and the next guy did the same, and the third and final owner doesn't feel cheated, what is unfair?

 

[mr_X]

There is no difference. The point in both cases is that on a hobbyist board those deals should go to other hobbyists not vendors/shops who then turn around and make profit on them.
.

what do you consider profit? i purchased a millepora colony about a year ago that was the size of a football. it grew quite a bit, but it was recently about the same size as when i got it. i paid X amount of dollars for it, and i've probably doubled that number in 15-20 dollar frags throughout the year.
am i wrong? i definitely made a profit, if you don't count salt, electric, and everything else i spent $$$ on, and maybe even if you do.

i ended up selling the entire colony to someone else, who will probably end up doing the same thing. even more profit!


now, let's say you're a vendor, and you purchase 25 sps colonies. out of the 25 one arrives DOA. you may or may not get a credit for that piece, but you certainly won't get the shipping/cites refunded.
now out of the other 24, 4 more pieces die on you.
you did everything you could. you have countless sps colonies doing well, but this is just one of those things. i also forgot to mention- in that box, another 4 colonies are very healthy, but quite uneventful, and most likely unsellable.

ok...so now you are down some serious green.
do you guys consider stuff like this when you get angry at vendors for marking up product, no matter where it comes from?

remember..most of these vendors are just hobbiests like you that wanted cheaper, nicer corals and a larger selection. they took it a few steps further and now they have to make money at it in order to keep going.

has anyone clicked on the sponsorship link and saw what they have to pay in order to have a banner up above?


one last rant-
isn't it up to the individual to decide on fairness?
i mean, if one guy is selling x coral for 50 bucks, and i like it, and buy it, i've decided that his price was fair.
what does it matter where he got it from?
if you object to this, then you should demand to see their corals invoices to make sure they aren't overcharging you!
:scratch:

 

[Wes]

LFS's dont exactly have alot of options for Aquacultured frags unless they come from ORA. Sometimes hobbyists are the only place they can find a certain aquacultured frag.

They have to make a profit when the sell things otherwise they wouldn't be a business...Thats how it works. If you don't like their multiplier on your frags next time charge them more. Thats how business works.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

what do you consider profit? i purchased a millepora colony about a year ago that was the size of a football. it grew quite a bit, but it was recently about the same size as when i got it. i paid X amount of dollars for it, and i've probably doubled that number in 15-20 dollar frags throughout the year.
am i wrong? i definitely made a profit, if you don't count salt, electric, and everything else i spent $$$ on, and maybe even if you do.

i ended up selling the entire colony to someone else, who will probably end up doing the same thing. even more profit!


now, let's say you're a vendor, and you purchase 25 sps colonies. out of the 25 one arrives DOA. you may or may not get a credit for that piece, but you certainly won't get the shipping/cites refunded.
now out of the other 24, 4 more pieces die on you.
you did everything you could. you have countless sps colonies doing well, but this is just one of those things. i also forgot to mention- in that box, another 4 colonies are very healthy, but quite uneventful, and most likely unsellable.

ok...so now you are down some serious green.
do you guys consider stuff like this when you get angry at vendors for marking up product, no matter where it comes from?

remember..most of these vendors are just hobbiests like you that wanted cheaper, nicer corals and a larger selection. they took it a few steps further and now they have to make money at it in order to keep going.

has anyone clicked on the sponsorship link and saw what they have to pay in order to have a banner up above?


one last rant-
isn't it up to the individual to decide on fairness?
i mean, if one guy is selling x coral for 50 bucks, and i like it, and buy it, i've decided that his price was fair.
what does it matter where he got it from?
if you object to this, then you should demand to see their corals invoices to make sure they aren't overcharging you!
:scratch:

Since you know so much about the trade aspect, why not expand a little on the process?
It would be a great educational tool for people to have it all explained to them.

 

[mr_X]

lol..i thought i just did that!

 

[Josh]

I think you are missing the point, these characters were misleading people with what they were doing with the items they were buying.

They would say to you, "hey I'd like to buy a few colonies when you shut down your tank, can you give me a discount?". Not a day later the corals would be hacked up and sold at a substantially higher price in stores.

To you it might not matter, but to the members here, I think its insulting. I regularly give away frags when I have too many, if I found out that someone took them and sold them immediately, I would be irate.

 

[Wes]

To you it might not matter, but to the members here, I think its insulting. I regularly give away frags when I have too many, if I found out that someone took them and sold them immediately, I would be irate.

Ive seen MR members selling frags that i gave away free at a MR swap. It happens. Should had traded them for store credit somewhere...

 

[mr_X]

i hear ya.
we banned a member for this on another forum...stating they were corals for the school project tank, and then seeing them for sale on another forum made me want to send some electricity through the dsl line!
it was principle more than anything. the corals weren't rare. it was just a slap in the face.

 

[House of Laughter]

Interesting conversation - for the people that troll the boards to buy things cheap and sell them back here for more (are we that stupid to buy from them knowing this factoid??) they would be cheating themselves of building the relationships that last in this hobby -

Since We are vendors, typically I would have stayed away from this type of thread. But since I have bought from members on MANY occasions, I thought I'd chime in -

The origins of this board was to advance the captive reef keeping hobby locally, regionally and now nationally to advance sharing of animals (trading or selling) to help stop the damage being done to the worlds reefs. This is out goal . . . .

I have bought animals off other vendors as well as members, grown them out and sold them for profit. However, I have NEVER sold them for more than what I paid originally, and in some cases for less (since some grow faster and better than others). This is a sign of respect to the other vendor or member who has been able to keep that animal over time and keep the price stable enough for all to continue to doing that kind of business. Take my old Atlantis triple reds for instance. I bought 3 polyps years ago from Atlantis Aquarium.net - they grew phenomenal for me - I used to sell them for half of what they sold for and at least 20 MR members benefited from this. I also asked that if they have equal success that they be considerate and sell them for the same price. Since I sold them at a discount, I wanted to make sure that was passed onto the community. As soon as I saw one of those who bought it selling them for more or less, I stopped selling to them completely - they can move on and get their animals from someone else.

If you think wholesalers can get everything that's available out there, you're sorely mistaken. not all animals are readily available to buy wholesale. Vendors have upwards of 15-20 wholesalers and even then you can't always get some of the things that a member may have.

Bottom line - if you stop buying from the person buying low and selling high (vendor or member), eventually, they'll never sell anything. Problem is, no one will NOT buy off that person - so laws of economics come into play and stay in play.

No way MR can police that kind of activity and it's our responsibility as members to out the ones who abuse it. IMO

FWIW

House

 

[prattreef]

Vendors are free to charge whatever they want for their stuff, I have no problem at all with whatever price they put on it based on whatever criteria they deem relevant.

Hobbyists making profit off their frags to other hobbyists I do have problems with, but that is a separate issue, and one that I realize I am in the minority on.

But to my main point, vendors who have access to other sources for cheaper livestock should not be trolling hobbyist boards buying up stuff that should be for other hobbyists. And in fact the vast majority of vendors and shops don't do this because they don't need to.

 

[nemo]

And to add to that, encouraging people to tank raise their coral, or farming, making it a sustainable industry. It puts less pressure for exploiting and taking corals from the wild.

That is absolutely OK, in fact I like the idea that people are farming and have relationships with brick and mortar stores, it keep the farmers happy and the stores in business.

What is not OK (in my opinion):

• Getting things from a freebie thread and selling them
• Getting things from someone who is getting out of the hobby and then selling them at near retail prices in a store
• Buying up every single listing of a certain type of coral and then selling it in a store

This is just my opinion and I'd like to hear what others think about this.

 

[Aquatic Life Direct]

Interesting conversation - for the people that troll the boards to buy things cheap and sell them back here for more (are we that stupid to buy from them knowing this factoid??) they would be cheating themselves of building the relationships that last in this hobby -

Since We are vendors, typically I would have stayed away from this type of thread. But since I have bought from members on MANY occasions, I thought I'd chime in -

The origins of this board was to advance the captive reef keeping hobby locally, regionally and now nationally to advance sharing of animals (trading or selling) to help stop the damage being done to the worlds reefs. This is out goal . . . .

I have bought animals off other vendors as well as members, grown them out and sold them for profit. However, I have NEVER sold them for more than what I paid originally, and in some cases for less (since some grow faster and better than others). This is a sign of respect to the other vendor or member who has been able to keep that animal over time and keep the price stable enough for all to continue to doing that kind of business. Take my old Atlantis triple reds for instance. I bought 3 polyps years ago from Atlantis Aquarium.net - they grew phenomenal for me - I used to sell them for half of what they sold for and at least 20 MR members benefited from this. I also asked that if they have equal success that they be considerate and sell them for the same price. Since I sold them at a discount, I wanted to make sure that was passed onto the community. As soon as I saw one of those who bought it selling them for more or less, I stopped selling to them completely - they can move on and get their animals from someone else.

If you think wholesalers can get everything that's available out there, you're sorely mistaken. not all animals are readily available to buy wholesale. Vendors have upwards of 15-20 wholesalers and even then you can't always get some of the things that a member may have.

Bottom line - if you stop buying from the person buying low and selling high (vendor or member), eventually, they'll never sell anything. Problem is, no one will NOT buy off that person - so laws of economics come into play and stay in play.

No way MR can police that kind of activity and it's our responsibility as members to out the ones who abuse it. IMO

FWIW

House

Well said! You took the word right out of my mouth. I too have bought from other vendors and members as well to grow out. Its really tough to get some of the exotic pieces out there from a wholesaler. Jim I also have your triple reds and other frags that are being grown out.... :lol2:

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

There iis a difference in buying something and flipping it right away for profit or buying something and growing it out and selling it. But the real sneaky stuff buying from members not knowing you're a vendor (stealth vendor) and selling it at your store for more than you paid for it. THat is what is sneaky and underhanded here. The stealth vendors and sneaky weasels here that aren't up front about their intentions.

 

[darkdrako]

Selling a coral for profit after buying it from a member is wrong but who says that vendors don't have their own personal tanks as well. I would think that a vendor would rather buy my coral and pick it up a town away then to pay into their business to purchase a coral from the wholesaler. I've seen a few people explicitly deny a coral sale based on the only fact that it says vendor on their nameplate regardless of their intentions (which was stated numerous times that it was personal and they wouldn't sell at their store) Unless you know the person, a little courtesy and initial trust goes a long way.

 

[Dj Orion]

well i have seen non vendors, (but store owners) who buy corals on MR and mark them up in their stores (they dont grow them out). I have seen people get upset, and threads closed over this exact issue.. that is why I posted this thread. to see what the guidlines are for store owners that buy low on the forum and flip it at a higher cost. I wanted to know if it was MR staffs responsibility to police this topic or the members responsibility in order to keep the site fair. I also wanted to know if the actual members even thought that this was fair or unfair practices at all.

I personally would be pissed off if I thought that I was giving a fellow member a great deal on corals to help them out, and then later find out that it went right into a store tank and sold at 5x my price to a person that dosnt know any better. Thats just my opinion. I personally feel that the vibe of this forum is to help other reefers expand their collections and knowledge of the hobby. Not give stores a great deal on corals from my personal collection so that they can mark it up and flip it to someone that dosent know any better.

Anyone that owns a store cannot honestly say that they cannot get the majority of things that are offered on this site. I have worked in stores and seen what distributors and tran shippers offer, and in most cases you can get alot of really nice stuff.

 

[Chraddam]

I joined this site because I refuse to buy from stores, since most of their corals are obtained from reefs, and in many instances illegally. I have traded with reefers and received free animals from others that I have met on here, and I strongly feel that vendors should not be stocking their stores with corals they get on here. The more money they make, the more they have to spend on corals torn from reefs, thus destroying one of nature's most beautiful gifts to us. ( And the fact that weaseing is disgraceful, sort of like reverse-stealing, imho.) I refuse to be a part of that cycle. Let the LFSs sell dry goods and tanks and chemicals and fish, but the corals are truly endangered and should only be fragged and traded.

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Vendors are free to charge whatever they want for their stuff, I have no problem at all with whatever price they put on it based on whatever criteria they deem relevant.

Hobbyists making profit off their frags to other hobbyists I do have problems with, but that is a separate issue, and one that I realize I am in the minority on.

But to my main point, vendors who have access to other sources for cheaper livestock should not be trolling hobbyist boards buying up stuff that should be for other hobbyists. And in fact the vast majority of vendors and shops don't do this because they don't need to.

99 percent agreed but with slight difference in the second point. Hobbyists making profit off their frags to other hobbyist is FINE as long as they don't get preferential treatment by the site or favorable bias from the hobbyists-free world, free enterprise and fair competition. To me, seeing 10 frags growing out in a display tank to sell, 100 frags growing out in a larger frag tank to sell, 1000 frags growing out in a more dedicated tank to sell, and a 10,000 frags growing in the ocean aquafarm to sell serve the same goal-grow out more to sell-it's businesses-tiny, small, medium and finally enterprise. To further the good wills of the hobby, one would have given the frags out for free(then by definition it's not a sale).

Both vendors and hobbyists practice buying low and selling high in here so there is no difference. A thread said "Tank Crashed-Selling Everything," everyone jump to grab the goods for what-a good low price or for relieving the owner of the burden to see his sadness? Once a while, I do see people offering parking service, those seemed more genuine in the intent of furthering the good wills of hobby.

Like Josh stated, the main point is that the buyer is faking a reason of buying and try to prey on sympathy. The background of the buyer(hobbyist or vendor alike) has no revelance on the fairness of buying from a hobbyist as long as he did not fake a reason. If he comes straight up with the real goal of buying it, it's all good. I think it's upto the offerer(hobbyist or vendors alike) to determine who and how he wants to offer, and in most cases sell, his stuff.