Unlimited Edition

[Quang]

 

[James]

Its not for "experience" it was a general question and I assure you my intentions were not to insult.

For example - Recently I have been considering ordering some new equipment so to offset costs I have been selling coral.[/QUOTE

I have no problem with people selling coral. None at all. I am just posting this to try to spark some thought into how we view our hobby and where it is going from here.

My info as to my equipment is in my tank thread. I am trying to do the thread a little different and show the true costs (minus electricity) of owning a reef tank. I don't have anything fancy.

James

 

[Wes]

i have a 50% rule. I will not sell a frag for more than 50% of what i paid for it...Often less than 50%.

I will buy an expensive frag if i like it...But when it needs to be fragged it sells for cheap.

I hate selling corals...If i frag something it's because it is getting too close to something else or I accidentally broke something while messing around in the tank. I'd rather give them to a close friend than have strangers coming over to the house to pay me for them.

 

[Chraddam]

I have been in the hobby for a while now. I have been on MR for about 6 months(?). I have purchased corals from many people on here, and always had the same thing happen. I go to pick up a frag or two, and the person bombards me with free frags. EVERYONE, including vendors. I, in turn, sold some things from my tank to make room for new stuff from the swap. Everyone who bought from me got waaaaay more than they bought, and certain people have gotten at least double what they paid for. I am lucky- I get things often and don't mind sharing with others. If someone is selling a really nice chalice, and they want $15 for a frag, I'm there. If they want $280 for an eye of a "Reverse Miami Nike Squarepants" chalice, Ican walk away.( I recently acquired a number of the LE and SE edition chalices...for free, from a friend. And not 1/4" frags...full pieces. When they grow out, I will share them). Having been to 100's of comic book conventions, I can tell you that the people that sell 3 for $1 books sell out and leave with tons of money, while the guys selling high-end books move enough to pay for their table and Dunkin Donuts. Maybe.

The point I am making is that, not just in business, but in life itself, the more I used to chase money and possessions, the more I wanted them. When I let go of that and became content with what I had, I found myself receiving more than I could imagine. I don't feel any need to compete with others for the latest thing, I just have an inner peace that keeps me content. And staring at my tank helps me keep that feeling, not staring at my wallet.

People need to make a living, and let them. I cannot bring myself to spend ridiculous amounts of money for something that grows underwater and has a fancier name that something else that grows in the water. And I am content to live like that

And oh yeah-check my $10 frag thread...and if you want, ask the people that bought from me if they left happy. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them left me a +1 rating.

 

[James]

Russ (or Jim, I get confused), Thank you for your kind offer but my school is not going to be a reef or even salt, I am working with this company that wants to put tanks in schools. I am hoping they simply make our 55 gallon freshwater tank we have presentable so the kids can use it and learn something from it (right now it's a mess, 1 fake treasure chest, 3 huge fish and lots of algae).

 

[alfani]

paying for something that cost $200+ for a speck of a frag just doesn't sound right but we all do it because you WANT IT.

maybe we should put a ceiling cap on the price of the frag on this site.

i wonder how many vendor/people would be selling at the swap if there is a cap of $10 - $30 max

 

[sakura51707]

Before I begin I would like to say that this is based on my OWN personal experience....

When I first entered this hobby and joined this site (it's been a little over a year) I was really amazed with the generosity (in Prattreef's defense he has ALWAYS been extremely generous to me, my boyfriend, and friends), willingness to help, etc. However, in the course of that year and from what I have observed the finger should be pointed at the vendors. I have noticed an increase in the number of vendors on this site and with it an increase in prices because they are NOT hobbyists. They are completely profit driven. And yes, there are unethical, immoral members on this site that take advantage of other member's generosity and "flip" the frag for a quick buck BUT I personally just look the other way and never deal with them.

Secondly, you should talk to Questionmarc because he is trying to achieve a similar goal; making this hobby, the livestock AFFORDABLE. Although the idea is nice in thought to put it into practice is impossible unless you can reach out to everyone and decrease the demand. Best example: "Knock-Off" Designer Bags. Chinatown has an abundant supply of Louis Vuitton, Prada, Gucci, etc. bags for $30-$60. I, along with many, many people, have purchased dozens of these bags and yet all these designer boutiques remain in business and line 5th and Madison Avenue. My point is no matter how hard you try to drive prices down there will always be a clientele that are willing to pay the high price tag.

 

[James]

Before I begin I would like to say that this is based on my OWN personal experience....

When I first entered this hobby and joined this site (it's been a little over a year) I was really amazed with the generosity (in Prattreef's defense he has ALWAYS been extremely generous to me, my boyfriend, and friends), willingness to help, etc. However, in the course of that year and from what I have observed the finger should be pointed at the vendors. I have noticed an increase in the number of vendors on this site and with it an increase in prices because they are NOT hobbyists. They are completely profit driven. And yes, there are unethical, immoral members on this site that take advantage of other member's generosity and "flip" the frag for a quick buck BUT I personally just look the other way and never deal with them.

Secondly, you should talk to Questionmarc because he is trying to achieve a similar goal; making this hobby, the livestock AFFORDABLE. Although the idea is nice in thought to put it into practice is impossible unless you can reach out to everyone and decrease the demand. Best example: "Knock-Off" Designer Bags. Chinatown has an abundant supply of Louis Vuitton, Prada, Gucci, etc. bags for $30-$60. I, along with many, many people, have purchased dozens of these bags and yet all these designer boutiques remain in business and line 5th and Madison Avenue. My point is no matter how hard you try to drive prices down there will always be a clientele that are willing to pay the high price tag.

questionmarc was referred to in this thread already although I didn't use his name, his post for the frag swap is basically very similar as to what I am saying (and an inspiration), except he has a nice large tank and lots of corals that need fragging and i dont... yet.

As to this being impossible, I disagree, we dont even need to reach everyone, just enough people. MR is big but its not RC, even though it seems like a huge community there are a lot of the same people and people talk and meet each other all the time, lowering prices to fair (and still profitable to vendors) prices is completely possible, imo. I like your analogy to the knock-off purses, perfumes, belts, etc but it is a little different with coral. This stuff grows out and is the same exact animal, if chinatown was selling real LV and Coach bags for those prices you bet your behind that 5th ave would have to adjust their prices right quick... Same thing I hope happens here. My hopes arn't high for this but I think it is possible.

James

 

[Chraddam]

...and at the end of the day, as QuestionMarc puts it..."it's just frags".
UE:grouphug:

 

[James]

...and at the end of the day, as QuestionMarc puts it..."it's just frags".
UE:grouphug:

awesome.

more than half my frags are from marc so i will rename those
MUE. marcs unlimited editions. haha. goodnight MR, its late and im tired after all this thinkin! :lol:

 

[tosiek]

I have been in the hobby for a while now. I have been on MR for about 6 months(?). I have purchased corals from many people on here, and always had the same thing happen. I go to pick up a frag or two, and the person bombards me with free frags. EVERYONE, including vendors. I, in turn, sold some things from my tank to make room for new stuff from the swap. Everyone who bought from me got waaaaay more than they bought, and certain people have gotten at least double what they paid for. I am lucky- I get things often and don't mind sharing with others. Maybe.

This is exactly what usually does happen when you meet other people that are in the hobby. And its usually awesome frags that are given away, not the weed ones. Ive given free amazing ($$$) frags out to people that come over for some cheato or xenya. And the same has happened to me.

I think you making this pledge will not make a difference in all respect. People who tend to sell corals cheaper tend to have a coral that grow like weeds and same go for people who give corals away.Unfortunately this hobby is very expensive and most of us need to sell some of our corals at the "going rate" to stay in the hobby

When you NEED to turn to your tank for $$ to support more things for your tank you need to quit this hobby. Its a collectors hobby, not a buisness and shouldn't have to support itself but is always nice when it does. Reefing is so much more than just making a buck off growing things in your tank. And given some of the crazy prices on coral, it tends to lure in alot of "quick $$" people that tend to ruin it for others. Its when you start getting into that type of mentality that you lose the big picture of the swaps, MR get togethers, meeting other reefers, ect. I started out just wanting coral and colorful fish and now im stuck with a bunch of crazy reefing friends that are as crazy or crazier about coral and fish than me.

And yes, what educator said is right, and its posts like that that do change the way people look at the hobby. Its a good reminder to what they remember it as or a different way of looking at it if they never seen that part of MR and reefing. Will you still see the people selling their coral for crazy $$? most likely. It won't stop but there is an equal number of people giving away awesome coral for practically free. Im not saying everyone should be giving away free coral because making back some or all of what you spent helps people stay in the hobby. But people jacking up prices, or doing the half a pinky nail of a LE super limited edition of an already limited edition chalice for 500$ is getting overboard.

 

[tosiek]

Your one of the few people I guess that have been fortunate enough to be given to opportunity to obtain and grow coral for next to nothing.

There's alot more than a fortunate few that are growing coral for next to nothing. And they aren't growing kenya trees or xenia.

You might be in the wrong loop of people YBOM =0)

 

[D1J8Z]

There's alot more than a fortunate few that are growing coral for next to nothing. And they aren't growing kenya trees or xenia.

You might be in the wrong loop of people YBOM =0)

Who are these fortunate people whose costs of keeping a reef tank are so low ?

Other than people funded by colleges.

 

[James]

I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying. If you have a tank and have grown it out over time (read, years), eventually you will have colonies of whatever corals. These corals will need trimming. Instead of looking at them as little $ signs, you ask your friends or people in your community if they would like something from your tank. This happens more than you may think and it gets reciprocated (making it conceivable to have a tank with very little spent in corals because you are trading your livestock for diversity, change of scenery etc). That is what he is saying about lots of reefers being fortunate, not people who just ask for free stuff all the time and get the golden chalice LE or my miami or whatever which is how it seems you are reading it. Ultimately, I think you get what you give, this applies to life and tanks (as I think Chaddrum said). If you are trying to squeeze every last dollar out of your tank and always looking for an angle, you most likely will not encounter (or inspire) the type of people Tosiek was referring to.

James

 

[sakura51707]

1-Why are you making it your mission in life to dictate how others spend money and what prices to sell their "stuff" for? I stated this earlier, YES there are unethical and immoral members on this site who take advantage of the generosity shown by many. However, instead of asking others to justify their rationale behind their purchases and trying to convince people to make things affordable. Walk away. Do not deal with those specific people. Here's my line of reasoning when I spend $200 on a nub: 1-I CAN afford it 2-I CAN afford it and 3-I CAN afford it.

2-Why are you not pointing the finger at the vendors? They are completely profit driven due to over-head, etc. Anyone who owns a business knows that in order to make a profit you must mark up the wholesale price at least double to see any return on that item. So if you want this entire site to be "for the hobby" then you will have to get rid of those who are only in it to make money. But since there is no membership fee and this site is funded primarily through vendor fees...well my friends I believe this is what they call a catch 22.

 

[prattreef]

Again, I cannot let that slide since you have no clue what you are talking about. Not that it is really any of your business, but my aquariums are not funded by the college. Why is it so hard to imagine a reefing world where you surround yourself with hobbyists that would rather trade or give away stuff than sell? That is how I get the majority of my livestock ---I trade, giveaway and receive back in kind. What I buy, I buy because I want to, not with an eye towards growing it out to recoup my cost, or make a profit-- and this, I believe is the original point of this thread. Perhaps this isn't the kind of reefing hobby you are interested in participating in which is fine, but please don't infer your own inclinations and motives onto others who just might approach things and strive for things to work differently.

 

[sharkbait69]

Your one of the few people I guess that have been fortunate enough to be given to opportunity to obtain and grow coral for next to nothing.

he?s not alone. For every coral i have sold, i have given away 2-3. My hobby/tanks are not my ATM. I have sold and will sell coral. the higher priced coral that i have paid a boatload of money for, I?ll get my money back for. Not in one shot, like some do.
Hence why i sell to hobbyist in my circle. I know they do the same thing as i do. if we can help drive down the prices of coral, good. nothing good happens overnight.
Being a nay sayer to a cause, is just the attitude retailer gougers need.
Spin it how you want. Two types of hobbyist, true hobbyist and ?hobbyist? are in it for the money.
The end all answer to this debate. If corals did not grow and the coral you bought is all it will ever be, would you still be in this hobby?
A true hobbyist would say yes, such as my self. People get in this hobby for what ever reason. The goal is to mimic the natural ocean setting in a box, that?s the challenge. The reward is to be an accomplished keeper and have your live stock grow. If you fail the tank crash?s.
A bonus to reef keeping is that coral grow and take up prime space in the tank. To combat this we clip. The clippings can make us a few coins cool. To turn around and be as greedy to other hobbyist as a retailer, what?s the point of buying from a hobbyist?
Any coral being sold can be bought someplace else. Someone soon will have acid trip chalice frags avail and purple hornets to frag and made avail to fellow reefers.
Do you think it?s a good thing for that ocean in a box came up with COA for coral at an added price? What?s that BS.
Some dope will think it?s a good idea.

 

[James]

for sakura, I don't have a ton of time so I will get back to your post and reply with a proper response when I do but for now you didn't read what I wrote well enough. I said more than once that you or anyone else is free to pay any price you want for whatever you want (who am I to tell you not to), you are only shooting yourself in the foot in the long term. I never asked nor would ask anyone to justify what you spend... this is putting words in my mouth. Read what I wrote again,
James

 

[WikedTechniQuezZ]

James, my man, i agree with you and prattreef, i even recall having a conversation with you at the frag swap.you got my support all the way bro.

 

[sharkbait69]

1-Why are you making it your mission in life to dictate how others spend money and what prices to sell their "stuff" for? I stated this earlier, YES there are unethical and immoral members on this site who take advantage of the generosity shown by many. However, instead of asking others to justify their rationale behind their purchases and trying to convince people to make things affordable. Walk away. Do not deal with those specific people. Here's my line of reasoning when I spend $200 on a nub: 1-I CAN afford it 2-I CAN afford it and 3-I CAN afford it.

cause its our hobby. So why not get up in arms about some scumbag seller triple or quadrupling the cost.
　

2-Why are you not pointing the finger at the vendors? They are completely profit driven due to over-head, etc. Anyone who owns a business knows that in order to make a profit you must mark up the wholesale price at least double to see any return on that item. So if you want this entire site to be "for the hobby" then you will have to get rid of those who are only in it to make money. But since there is no membership fee and this site is funded primarily through vendor fees...well my friends I believe this is what they call a catch 22.

Have you ever been in this business????? I have. Been a box jockey up to sales. I know a few vendors on here and who they use. I also know who the transhippers and wholesalers they use. I see the sales fax and the internet ordering. I know what the cost are.
I my self am not arguing free market. Im argue the price gouging.
I know who leaves what wholesaler or goes to another wholesaler. I know certain people will load a box with the good coral and screw the other retailer. it?s a cut throat business.
I know certain retailers will talk a lot of sh*t about another to feel closer to the wholesaler.
I know a lot of the inside BS that goes on.
Last minute sale 12 small tangs for 24.00 bucks. Its goes on all the time.
You would vomit if you saw what some of the live stock sells for wholesale and what it goes for retail.