Unlimited Edition

[sakura51707]

I read very carefully what you wrote but bringing it up in a public forum, trying to gather followers and publicly flog those such as myself who are willing to spend a lot of money for something I want can be interpreted as you trying to dictate what others can and cannot do. I personally do not believe I am shooting myself in the foot in the long run because if for some reason in the future I cannot afford an item I will simply walk away and not take my frustration out on a site and rally a cause.

Secondly, what role do you think vendors have played in all of this?

 

[D1J8Z]

Again, I cannot let that slide since you have no clue what you are talking about. Not that it is really any of your business, but my aquariums are not funded by the college. Why is it so hard to imagine a reefing world where you surround yourself with hobbyists that would rather trade or give away stuff than sell? That is how I get the majority of my livestock ---I trade, giveaway and receive back in kind. What I buy, I buy because I want to, not with an eye towards growing it out to recoup my cost, or make a profit-- and this, I believe is the original point of this thread. Perhaps this isn't the kind of reefing hobby you are interested in participating in which is fine, but please don't infer your own inclinations and motives onto others who just might approach things and strive for things to work differently.

So you get a bill for the electricity and water ?

 

[DCG1286]

Just read through all of this ... It's a nice idea if we just keep this between us true hobbyists ... trading corals and such bringing down the prices (hypothetically) where do the vendors fit into the equation???

 

[DCG1286]

　


You would vomit if you saw what some of the live stock sells for wholesale and what it goes for retail.

Already have ... it's pretty funny. (minus the vomiting part)

 

[sakura51707]

cause its our hobby. So why not get up in arms about some scumbag seller triple or quadrupling the cost.
　

Have you ever been in this business????? I have. Been a box jockey up to sales. I know a few vendors on here and who they use. I also know who the transhippers and wholesalers they use. I see the sales fax and the internet ordering. I know what the cost are.
I my self am not arguing free market. Im argue the price gouging.
I know who leaves what wholesaler or goes to another wholesaler. I know certain people will load a box with the good coral and screw the other retailer. it’s a cut throat business.
I know certain retailers will talk a lot of sh*t about another to feel closer to the wholesaler.
I know a lot of the inside BS that goes on.
Last minute sale 12 small tangs for 24.00 bucks. Its goes on all the time.
You would vomit if you saw what some of the live stock sells for wholesale and what it goes for retail.

First of all, yes it is our hobby but people are going to do what they want whether you give them a lynching or not. Therefore I am not going to waste my time and simply deal with those I trust and have befriended.

Secondly, I have never ran a fish store but I do know a thing or two about running a business. There are a lot of extra costs that cause prices to increase. That was MY point.

Lastly, I have been made perfectly aware of the scheming and the underhandedness that goes on with wholesalers, vendors, and local fish store owners and their behavior does disgust me. However I know that unless people stop buying from them and they go out of business this cycle will continue whether you and/or I like it or not. Supply and Demand....Capitalism....

 

[tosiek]

Just read through all of this ... It's a nice idea if we just keep this between us true hobbyists ... trading corals and such bringing down the prices (hypothetically) where do the vendors fit into the equation???

Vendors will still charge the same because wholesale cherry coral dealers have already started charging our vendors insane prices for what collectors here are already paying an insane price on. The wholesale coral lists in a few places are already naming their coral "alien eye chalice large" instead of the generic "chalice large" and charging extra for it. Wholesalers are also influencing the pricing on the coral they ship out and are looking like we do at the colors and rarity of it.

Its not about vendors and their pricing, its about people going in and overcharging on these "LE cherry omg" frags thats beeing going on for pinhead sized 1 eye frags, breaking it up into a million half pinhead sized frags and reselling for double thats getting a little over the top. This hobby turned into not looking at a coral to how nicely it would fit into your aquascaping but rather how many pieces you can chop it up and sell it for next week. Noone knows the real scientific name anymore of most of the coral but go by their street name "LE super twisty green pudding camo chalice of death and destruction, tyree edition"

Quote:

Originally Posted by prattreef

Again, I cannot let that slide since you have no clue what you are talking about. Not that it is really any of your business, but my aquariums are not funded by the college. Why is it so hard to imagine a reefing world where you surround yourself with hobbyists that would rather trade or give away stuff than sell? That is how I get the majority of my livestock ---I trade, giveaway and receive back in kind. What I buy, I buy because I want to, not with an eye towards growing it out to recoup my cost, or make a profit-- and this, I believe is the original point of this thread. Perhaps this isn't the kind of reefing hobby you are interested in participating in which is fine, but please don't infer your own inclinations and motives onto others who just might approach things and strive for things to work differently.

So you get a bill for the electricity and water ?

If the school pays for electric and water for the tanks or not, the tanks are providing an educational and historical background into something that isn;t present in the normal everyday classes. The school not paying for the equipment or the livestock, rocks, ect pays off very very well for them.

And YBOM, when i meant fortunate few, i didn;t mean fully funded tanks. I meant the people that do go around and not charge each other 2 arms and a leg for coral but give you their arm and leg along with their coral. Apparently you haven't seen that happening. Maybe people see the $$ in your eyes and the bone cutters hiding behind your back when you look at coral and not that it would be a great addition to your aquascaping because of the color and shape or whatever. I dunno. I dunno you at all.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

This is one of the reasons why the initial freebie thread was closed. Too many people getting stuff for free then flipping it to make a buck. I have seen numerous cases of that here. I have also seen members get things for a cheaper price and sell that same item at a markup. It is lowlifes like this that are ruining this hobby.

Vendors and stores have to cover their overhead. That cost is factored into their pricing as is the initial cost of the product. It is the people who at the beginning of the product chain that are messing this stuff up.

 

[SWITCH420]

This is one of the reasons why the initial freebie thread was closed. Too many people getting stuff for free then flipping it to make a buck. I have seen numerous cases of that here. I have also seen members get things for a cheaper price and sell that same item at a markup. It is lowlifes like this that are ruining this hobby.

Vendors and stores have to cover their overhead. That cost is factored into their pricing as is the initial cost of the product. It is the people who at the beginning of the product chain that are messing this stuff up

.Sad but true..

 

[Quang]

Seems like everyone has addressed everyone else's points. So, I would just like to add that I appreciate this thread. Initially, I didn't want to add the "U.E." to my signature, because I don't NEED people to know my views on this hobby. However, I added it anyways because in the case that another member sees the "U.E." and shares in the same mentality, he/she would feel a sense of camaraderie in this faceless crowd.

According to my profile, I have 14 "friends" on this site and I have given/would give any one of them my prized, unprized, rare, whatever corals for free because I had to do some fragging, got bored of the coral, or whatever other reasons. I don't even care if they'll return the favor, but chances are they will. What happened to kindness? I'm not directing that specifically at any particular person.

When I first joined this site, most of the active members were really generous and that's what made me stayed in the hobby. I have to admit that that's not so much the case anymore...and...I've also noticed an increase in "tank breakdown" for sale threads since when I first joined.

 

[Chraddam]

Last minute sale 12 small tangs for 24.00 bucks. Its goes on all the time.
You would vomit if you saw what some of the live stock sells for wholesale and what it goes for retail.

I have friends at pet stores. Managers. District Managers. Also have friends at fish stores. I know what goes on. The wholesale prices on some of the fish are ridiculously cheap. I also write, draw, and publish graphic novels. They cost about $3.18 to print. And the cover price is $17.95. But I have to pay for shipping, storage, advertising, web site hosting, and a bunch of other costs. So the stores buy the books from me at about $7. And then they sell them for $17.95. And I barely break even.

But when I do store appearances, book signings, conventions, or web sales, I only charge $10 per book. My logic is that if I have less overhead, I can sell books cheaper.

So I know that things usually cost way, WAY less than what we pay, or what we perceive their value to be. The question is, are you comfortable paying the price someone is asking? Because there are many times I have seen things offered at a certain price, and then either bought something that was a lot cheaper or just walked away. I have been to vendor's homes and saw expensive things I would like to have, only to see something just as nice at 1/5th the amount. Guess what I end up buying.

 

[beerfish]

Wow... since this thread sprung up from the one I started I wanted to jump in and say this:

No one should be getting upset with what anyone else spends on corals UNLESS they agreed on something when they got the coral. If you are caught selling DBTC corals, you are pretty much the equivalent of the stuff the comes out of my skimmer. Otherwise, why do you care what someone else spends. I started the other thread not to start a fight about price gouging, but because I was curious as to what people are keeping and collecting, and what they were willing to spend.

One of the things I like about this hobby is the million ways you can go about it. You can spend $800 on a frag and be a collector of rare pieces. (I wouldn't spend thousands of dollars on a painting that looks like a monkey used a can of spray paint as a pogo stick, but hey, if it's your thing, go for it.) You can buy $10 frags and grow them out. You can buy thousands worth of equipment to automate everything, or do daily water changes.

As far as vendors go... I know a few vendors on the site. I also know what they do in their full time jobs (this means that selling here is not enough to keep them afloat). If you feel a vendor is gouging... find a new vendor. If you want to solve the problem, stop going to the vendors that take advantage of people, and in turn, support the ones that are good to you.

Bottom line is... if you do what you can to keep your livestock happy (thus reducing the amount of corals pulled from the ocean), you're ok by me.

 

[Chraddam]

bottom line is... If you do what you can to keep your livestock happy (thus reducing the amount of corals pulled from the ocean), you're ok by me.

a big +1

 

[cali_reef]

Again, I cannot let that slide since you have no clue what you are talking about. Not that it is really any of your business, but my aquariums are not funded by the college. Why is it so hard to imagine a reefing world where you surround yourself with hobbyists that would rather trade or give away stuff than sell? That is how I get the majority of my livestock ---I trade, giveaway and receive back in kind. What I buy, I buy because I want to, not with an eye towards growing it out to recoup my cost, or make a profit-- and this, I believe is the original point of this thread. Perhaps this isn't the kind of reefing hobby you are interested in participating in which is fine, but please don't infer your own inclinations and motives onto others who just might approach things and strive for things to work differently.

Randy, there are not many "hobbyist" in this hobby anymore. It's all about bragging "look at the LE piece of turd I got for $$$$ and I am starting a waiting list if you want a nub", not about growing things out to pretty colonies and sharing.

I sold corals to people I don't know, once I got to know them, they usually get frags for free. I have never sold a coral for what I paid for, the premise of making a profit makes the hobby a business. I have thrown away more corals from my tank in NY because there are not many people worth sharing with.

 

[rookie07]

I applaud you intent


Calireefer:

I have thrown away more corals from my tank in NY because there are not many people worth sharing with.

I dont understand...you threw out coral b/c you didnt want to give it to some random person?

 

[sharkbait69]

I have friends at pet stores. Managers. District Managers. Also have friends at fish stores. I know what goes on. The wholesale prices on some of the fish are ridiculously cheap. I also write, draw, and publish graphic novels. They cost about $3.18 to print. And the cover price is $17.95. But I have to pay for shipping, storage, advertising, web site hosting, and a bunch of other costs. So the stores buy the books from me at about $7. And then they sell them for $17.95. And I barely break even.

But when I do store appearances, book signings, conventions, or web sales, I only charge $10 per book. My logic is that if I have less overhead, I can sell books cheaper.

So I know that things usually cost way, WAY less than what we pay, or what we perceive their value to be. The question is, are you comfortable paying the price someone is asking? Because there are many times I have seen things offered at a certain price, and then either bought something that was a lot cheaper or just walked away. I have been to vendor's homes and saw expensive things I would like to have, only to see something just as nice at 1/5th the amount. Guess what I end up buying.

Again, I know full well that a business is just that a business. We are in to make money. I?m not saying don?t cover your overhead. that?s not my intentions.
Again with out naming names. Certain venders like to make them selves out to be more then they are. Some are no more then vats with lights and frags. Yet they say they are grow out center with parent colonies. When in fact not a single parent colony is no where to be seen. (yes, I did walk the warehouse)
Certain wholesaler drops the dime on them also for dirty practice.
Or certain venders cant get their grubby hands on certain designer coral so they come up with the same name but place their name in front.
It?s a game now and its nasty. Personally speaking its ruining my hobby. That?s why it makes me happy to read how their holding vats crash. Yet saddens me that live stock had to die. Karma?s ah *****.
I have said before on multiple threads. I am just as guilty, but I fair the storm by selling a frag that I paid 150 for turn around sell a big frag of the 150 coral for 50 or trade it and if I like you ?here take this frag too?. Its my way of throwing the middle finger to the scumbag retailer.
Ora is match that started this fire. They should have washed out to sea when they got hit with the storm. I wouldn?t miss them one bit. No, I never bought an ORA coral off the rack. Frags of a frag from friends.
I?m in this hobby to enjoy it and meet people, that?s it. Its my hobby and I take it very serious when greedy scum just pluck coral off the rocks and ask high price. It all equals out in the end when the stores go belly up and get flushed like a dead fish.
If I can move a couple of designer coral and help flood the market, so be it. Yeah I paid big money for frags, but the frags are not worth it.

 

[SWITCH420]

Lets not forget the reefs are in bad shape right now. maybe a lil more trading and giving frags around. also selling them at a fair price 10-25 dollars we maybe able to make a small impact?

 

[sharkbait69]

Trust me. If I wouldn’t get booted when I see certain pictures of avail live stock , I wanna be a big d*ck and post the wholesale price with the same picture and what collector/wholesalers its from. i understand profit margin, i do. but take advantage of people and some need to get a slap in the mouth.
I don’t buy much from to many. I bought a piece maybe two months ago now from a vendor on here for a certain coral frag that I could not get anyplace else. Even my connections could not land me a frag. I wanted it, I paid for it. Its some what of a slow grower but has done more then I expected it to.

 

[cali_reef]

I applaud you intent


Calireefer: I dont understand...you threw out coral b/c you didnt want to give it to some random person?

Yes, because 1)that random person turns around and sells it, or 2) the person is not appreciative nor capable of keeping it alive anyway, why waste my time? I have been burn a few time in NY and I find it easier to throw out pieces I had to trim off.

 

[prattreef]

This thread is not really about vendors. It is about hobbyists paying it forward plain and simple. BTW, ORA is far from the match that started the designer coral craze-- you need to look a lot further West for that and they do in fact aquaculture their stuff and end up retailing reasonable size pieces for less than $100 so I'm not sure why the hating on them, but I digress...... how about at the next frag swap we have a separate and vibrant thread for actually swapping, not selling corals???

 

[juiceguy]

this thread has opened up a can of worms. i am just as guilty as many of you who dropped a pretty $$$ on that great looking or fancy named piece of (blank) but i never purchased something with the intent on chopping it up and making my $ back. as most of the ppl i dealt with know, i let everything grow out to the max and only when they grow up on each other i cut them up. i think in 2 yrs i sold 1 frag, everything i ever fragged was given away to friends or ppl i dealt with. i recently had a bad experience with a member on here and left a bad taste in my mouth because i felt that my generosity was taken advantage of.
i participated in the MR DBTC and received slack as to why there are so many rules(this came from a vendor) and even though no one has claimed a frag from me, i still felt obliged to the person i got my frag from and offered him frags for his generosity.
Randy is right......maybe we should have a genuine "frag" swap with no selling, just trading.