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Mike King

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Hey vitz, interesting read,
I have heard of their work but didn't know how far they have advanced the propagation of red snapper. Mariculture of food fish is becoming big business in several Asian countries also. As they develop more larval foods I'm sure they will start working on more of the high end Marine Ornamental Fish.
Thanks for the info,


Mike King
 
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Anonymous

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mike-

they already used their new protocal (software to track population of food cultures by density and species is involved) succesfully with flame angels :D
 

dizzy

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vitz,

Have you seen the lastest Seascope? It contains an interesting article by Frank Baensch on breeding Centropyge angels. His first success came with C. fisheri in November 2001. In January 2002 Karen Brittain of Waikiki raised the masked angelfish Genicanthus personatus and about the same time the Oceanic Institute was the first to rear C. loriculus (Flame angel) Frank Baensch was working out of his 700 sq ft home facility called Reef Culture Technologies LLC. He has currently raised four species including C. fisheri, C. flavissimus, C. loriculus, and C. multicolor which all spawn in a similar manner. According to the article he plans on making his techniques available to others in the future.
 
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Anonymous

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no, haven't read seascope in years(last time was when i was working at lfs).

but this is part of why i contended (in 'how much would you pay' thread) that it's my firm belief that, just as with freshwater fishes- eventually, most, if not all species of s.w. ornamentals will be spawned and raised 'artificially'.

my bet is within 10-15 yrs-with feasability taking abit longer-maybe not :D

all depends on the 'exponentiality' of this particular learning curve...
 

Kalkbreath

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If I was to reveal my sources, my sources will dry up.....the reason the "OTHERS" on this board wont come out, is the same reason that my sources dont want ME to kiss and tell.........Its amazing all the info that is kept quiet because its not "in the best interests of the hobby" Why is it the truth is not in the hobbys best interest? The quoted Hawiaan report is part of the story .......work from there ......But keep in mind , the results learned were not what they were looking for so, i doubt very much has been published .......as is the case with most impact findings.. ,
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Kalkbreath

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vitz":i9ctvw28 said:
no, haven't read seascope in years(last time was when i was working at lfs).

but this is part of why i contended (in 'how much would you pay' thread) that it's my firm belief that, just as with freshwater fishes- eventually, most, if not all species of s.w. ornamentals will be spawned and raised 'artificially'.

my bet is within 10-15 yrs-with feasibility taking abit longer-maybe not :D

all depends on the 'exponentiality' of this particular learning curve...
I agree , this would be great for the hobby, better fish and an exculpated reputation for the hobby as a whole..............BUT without anyone making a living on the islands with an interest in the health of the coral.............what will keep the more distructive industries from harming the reefs more? At this point, 90% of the dying reefs are where no collection has ever taken place and the heathyist are where collection has taken place for years? explain?
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kalk-

the proposition that the reef hobby is saving the reefs by virtue of its collecting, or its collecting methods is preposterous.

the answer for your 'villianous' industries is the same as for this hobby.

LEAVE THE REEFS AND THE SURROUNDING ENVIRONMENT ALONE!!

the reefs are not, in the long run, the determining factor in this hobby's longevity-it is the factor in your ability to make money off of what is collected there.if all collection was stopped today-the coral side of the hobby would show an explosion in captive propagation markets, and would eventually meet all hobbyist demand-the same will happen for the fish side.

there is not one ornamental animal kept by masses of people that people have not figured out how to propagate.

i, for one-would be more than happy to see a moratorium/ban on ALL human activity within 50 mi. of all reefs-with fish collection allowed strictly for research of propagation purposes only.

as a hobbyist-i can wait-as an lfs owner-you can't...
 

Kalkbreath

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Funny that you should use the word explosion! To explain what wiil happen if collection for the aquarium hobby is ended out on the reefs! {KABOOM! } Tell us all in hobby land how you will stop the natives from exploiting THEIR reefs by seafood fishing or other means once the harmless practice of collecting fish and coral frags has ended? Maybe we should gather them all up to live with us in the USA? Oh anotherthing, If you think very few of freshwaterfish for the hobby are collected in the wild ....think again........
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kalk-unless you have some more 'secret' sources-i will state to you, without any hesitation/reservation-as one who probly has been in the freshwater side of the industry at least as long, if not longer, than you (possibly also s.w.)that better than 95% of all of the species and amounts of f.w. fishes in the hobby are farm raised,period.(i know exactly where all my f.w. fish came from-most of the wild caught species, btw, which are no longer available, are due to habitat destruction-like the blue eye pleco- they still are not available-the why doesn't matter-if a ban was placed both on collecting the blue eye, and on the encroachment on its habitat, enough would presently be available to not only sustain hobbyist demand, but also to provide enough enough stock for breeding/propagation research)

any refutation of yours will have to be backed with hard evidence-or don't even bother!(NO secret sources! :lol: )

the food fish industry will also be regulated,eventually, i assure you-the hobby industry will just be the first.

again-your contention that exploitation of any sort of any habitat is essential to the protection of that habitat is just plain ridiculous.

next you'll be telling everyone that oil must be drilled in alaska to preserve the natural park area there :roll:

again-if all collection is banned from the reefs-i mean ALL-you're out of a job.the hobbyist will not be out of a hobby.

all of the corals common in the hobby are already being captively propagated, and the number of fish species grows yearly...

if you were the great conservationalist that you are trying to make yourself seem to be with your ludicrous line of reasoning-to wit-that the reefs will suffer more from the food fishing, why aren't you for a TOTAL ban on ALL collection? :wink: :P

after all-even with all the present stock in the country presently-enough specimens are present to provide the raw materiel for captive propagation research-worst case scenario is a 2-3 yr period of unavailability of specimens for hobbyists,followed by an initially higher price, which will ultimately fall to comparable to what they are now...

you just want to protect your source of income-which is fine, if you're willing to be honest about it, and do it in a moral fashion.you however keep denying the obvious position you come from and keep trying to rationalize your position with faulty argument.

let's say that i don't care, even, about the food fishing industry, or the damage it causes(for the sake of argument).as i've already told you, you silly boy-TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT!-as long as your industry practices environmentally damaging practices-you are nothing but the pot calling the kettle black.
 

MaryHM

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Subj: Reply to Kalkbreth's comments
Date: 10/17/2002 9:01:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]



Mary, Please post this on the Reefs.org bulletin Bulletin Board under If you build it they will come Industry Concerns Section. I am not sure that it went up on the site after I submitted it (for reasons that I can not understand)
Sincerely,
Peter Rubec
Email [email protected]

Hello Mike King,

The following is an email sent to you by PeterIMA via your account on reefs.org bulletin board. If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address:

[email protected]

Include this full email (particularly the headers). Please note that the reply address to this email has been set to that of PeterIMA.

Message sent to you follows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My question to Kalkbreth was a genuine question rather than an attempt to shoot him down. I have a study published by the State of Hawaii, Dept. of Land and Natural Resources,Division of Aquatic Resources published in 1999 titled Hawaii's Stafe of the Reefs 1998 (which I obtained from one of their biologists at the 1st Marine Ornamental Conference held in Kona on the Big Island in 1999). The report summarizes a variety of programs concerning coral reef research and monitoring conducted by Hawaii DLNR. Pages 21-23 of the glossy report (lots of images and graphs) discusses aquarium fish.
The Overview states that Hawaii is a major supplier of wild-caught maine ornamental fish with a reported value of $800,000 to 900,000 annually. The top species collected statewide are Yellow Tang, Kole, Achilles Tang, Feather duster worms, Orangespine Unicornfish, Longnose Butterflyfish, and Moorish Idols. Of the 214 kinds of animals reported Yellow Tang represent more than 75% of the animals collected statewide. The majority of yellow tang are collected off West Hawaii. Kawaihae, Kona, and Miloli'i on the Island of Hawai'i are the most productive areas statewide, reprenting nearly 60% of all animals collected.
Under Current Status, the report explained that the number of commercial collecting permits has risen steadily over the past few years by 39% between 1995 and 1998 from 167 to 274. Commercial collection conflicts with other uses of the reefs in two ways: 1) some of the fish collected when small for the aquarium trade (eg. Kole) are also caught when larger by subsistence fishermen for food, and 2) collectors have removed from favored dive sites territorial species that dive tour operators may have used as attractions toshow their customers unique reef organisms. Although the direct sale of Hawaii's tropical reef fish represents a significant economic contribution, dive and snorkel operations gross nearly five times as much revenue annually just from the sale of snorkel and dive tours. In the past five years, conflicts between tropical reef fish collectors, subsistence fishermen, and dive tour operators have intensified; threats and violence have been alleged, especial!
ly on the big island of Hawaii.
Tropical reef collection can damage reefs in the following ways
a) Barrier nets used for collecting can entangle on reefs, branching corals can be damaged when nets are set and retrieved.
b) Colletors chasing fish with hand or dip nets often .. make contact and their fins and other dive gear on the reef.
c) Some collectors break up the coral to get at fish hiding in the reef.
d) Fish left unattended in traps can die.
e) Rare or solitary fish in high demand are most vulnerable to depletion.
f) Many fish and inverts have complicated relationships with the overall ecology of the reef. Their removeal may effect the long-term stability of these ecosystems.

Under Management Status (Current/Future) the report stated: To address concerns expressed by dive-tour operators over marked decrease in some species at sites collected regularly with populations at sites where these fish are protected DLNR/DAR funded a study with the Universty of Hawaii-Hilo researchers. The results of this study indicatd signigican population decreases in areas where fish were collected, suggesting a major shift in the species diversity in coral reef areas where collection is occurring. Many of the species targeted for collection are herbivores. Removal of a significant number of these species could result in an increase in algal growth, due to the lack of grazers to keep the algae in check and a corresponding decrease in coral cover.

A graph on Page 23 of the report summarizes changes in fish abundance over 20 years at Honaunau. The 10 most abundant fish species declined by 40%. The top 10 aquarium fish species decreased by 59% (from 1975-78 to 1998 in both cases).

The mplication here is not that removal of groupers allowed aquarium fish to increase in numbers (assertion by Kalkbreath). Rather it is that aquarium fish collectors have overfished many species (despite the use of hand nets and barrier nets). Hence, the stocks have decreased rather than increased and the State of Hawaii blames the aquarium fish collectors.

DLNR/DAR set aside areas along the Kona Coast, Hawaii where tropical reef fish collection was not be allowed. These Fishery Management Areas (FMAs) worked relatively well to separate the competing groups of users until the past five years when growth of the aquarium trade increased in the areas wher collection occurred. In 1996 a working group was established to set aside additional FMAs. In 1998 the State Legislature passed Act 306 to create a West Hawaii Regional Fishery Management Area in nearshore waters between Upolu Point and Ka Laew.
There was 51.8 miles of nearly 150 miles of coastline along West Hawaii closed to tropical fish collection. Areas have been zoned as Marine Protected Areas (no fishing allowed). The article goes on to state that Hawaii is funding research on the rearing of marine fish species to help reduce pressures (such as collecting) on the coral reefs.

While this is not good news for IMA (which conducted net-training in the Philippines) I present this information here to make people aware that even net-collecting can be harmful, if the numbers of licences issued for collecting result in overfishing that exceeds sustainable levels on the reefs.

Sincerley,
Peter J. Rubec
International Marinelife Alliance
Email: [email protected]
 

SPC

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Peter, so IYO is it even feasible to expect countries in the South Pacific to ever manage the reefs properly?
Steve
 

Kalkbreath

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Again ,its what you dont report that is the real story............Yes areas with collection for the hobby have less fish, but have been STABLE for twentyyears{Woods report} Its simple math.....take 50% of the fish in an area each week and there will always be 50% missing.........Only 5% of the reefs in the Hawaiian Islands are collected from, so thats not any great impact{even if all the fish were gone in these areas...........Oh and ONE adult Parrot fish Chomps down and harms more live coral{ then All bumping ,touching fishermen combined in a years time.{Sprung?} And just how many coral eating parrot fish are in the islands? five hundred thousand? this would mean that the "NATURAL" collectors out distroy the coral bumping net fishermen 500,000 to 1 ! Not so great an inpact when veiwed in the correct context! .............. The report I was referring to was a findings that areas in which all fishing and collection stopped ,the total number of reef fish DECLINED ?
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Kalkbreath

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SPC":103msux6 said:
Peter, so IYO is it even feasible to expect countries in the South Pacific to ever manage the reefs properly?
Steve
I think they somehow dream that the people whom call these islands home ,will somehow find another resourse make a living from ,on their tiny desert islands....... That all of Asia will stop buying seafood from these islands and learn to only eat tank grown rice.....all because the Americans have asked them too......even though we Americans everyday plunder our resourses ,bulldose our lands to build houses and shopping malls ? Fat chance!
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Kalkbreath":8gtb0n28 said:
Again ,its what you dont report that is the real story............Yes areas with collection for the hobby have less fish, but have been STABLE for twentyyears{Woods report} Its simple math.....take 50% of the fish in an area each week and there will always be 50% missing.........Only 5% of the reefs in the Hawaiian Islands are collected from, so thats not any great impact{even if all the fish were gone in these areas...........Oh and ONE adult Parrot fish Chomps down and harms more live coral{ then All bumping ,touching fishermen combined in a years time.{Sprung?} And just how many coral eating parrot fish are in the islands? five hundred thousand? this would mean that the "NATURAL" collectors out distroy the coral bumping net fishermen 500,000 to 1 ! Not so great an inpact when veiwed in the correct context! .............. The report I was referring to was a findings that areas in which all fishing and collection stopped ,the total number of reef fish DECLINED ?

kalk-you are saying that the resulting population(the 50%) replaces itself through reproduction back to to the previous level every week!!

or-are you EQUATING 1/2 of a million with 1/2 of 500,000? :wink:

please learn simple math.(if i can handle simple subtraction, i'm sure you can, too)


parrot fish move and migrate-and if they overeat on coral, then the resulting loss will lead to less support for the parrots, and then less parrots, until the corals come back.

it's called checks and balances-and it's axiomatic-you can argue all you want, but you cannot change the way things are designed to work.

please print your 'report' here for all to see you aren't just ranting...
 

Kalkbreath

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Yes , there has been twentyyears of collection in the same small areas in Hawaii .and the fish population in those areas has remained the same ! Somewhat lower then other non collected areas but STABLE! Of course there are some fish missing, thats what collection means......but when those numbers remain stable both in the collection areas and in the NON collection areas it means something now doesn't it? {Quote} "kalk-you are saying that the resulting population(the 50%) replaces itself through reproduction back to to the previous level every week!!" Yes ! that means there is an overabundance of fish ,which if not for the new "openings in the now vacant collection areas,these fish would be eaten in open water as they migrate looking for a home. {All the new baby fish come from the plankton flow as the fish metamorph into juv.} This is the ONLY way that collection areas' fish populations can remain steady for two decades.
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dizzy

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Jamie,
I just wanted to put this thread back on page one so it would be easy for you to find.
Please read the letter from Mr. Howard Latin on page 1.
 

flameangel1

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dizzy,,
As a former member of the AMDA bod when Randy was president- I wish to strongly state that I fought tooth and nail to have the membership consulted and reported to--and couldnt get anywhere with him on that issue !!!!!!
As such, I did resign !!!!

AMDA is and was supposed to be the American Marine Life DEALERS assc.--not some private organization that laid out secret rules and then demanded everyone follow them !!!!
AMDA was a secret society with the preceding President also !!!!
NO one was allowed to dissent without being personally bitched at and told to agree or get out !!!

You have NO idea how frustrating that issue was to a few of us at that time.
 

clarionreef

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Oooops,
This was ment as reply to the first page...but the rest are interesting as well.
Judy...I sure wish we had you back.
50 new AMDA members contributing energy, donating nets and expecting results would be a dream come true.
And I sure wouldn't treat you like the one you spoke of before! I'm sorry bout that but it was before my time.
Steve
 

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