Industry Meeting at MACNA?

[mkirda]

Why?

Because you know real embargoes mean starving children? Because a real embargo on Philippine and Indonesian fish would mean the children of net-fishermen and cyanide-fishermen would go hungry?

Is that why you would want to hide Wayne Ryan's threats from outer space? Not because they are real threats, but because they look like feces smeared inside a public bathroom stall?

Well, for all of the above, John, and a whole lot more.

Any organization that advocates a total ban on imports as a way of 'solving' the cyanide problem is just plain loonie. And that is an insult to loons everywhere!

It is as crazy as throwing red paint on people who wear fur.
Or take caged-raised fur critters and release them into the wild to starve, a slow nasty death if ever there was one.

It is Wayne's refusal to listen to anything that doesn't run the straight and narrow of his mind. Nothing will temper his views, there is no working together nor compromise, nor moderation. Just this in your face, my way or the highway attitude, even when the evidence of the hardship of his views stares him straight in the face. Wayne has never gone hungry, that much I can guarantee you...

For me, having seen the people that "Reeform" would impact, I could not in good conscience support Wayne's vision. And, John, I know you feel the exact same way.

There is a better way, Wayne. One that will work.
I've explained it to you again and again, yet it still doesn't seem to sink in.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Industry will be responsible for its own destruction.
With the major segment of their market gone, fishers and their families and exporters and their workers will be in tough economic shape. They will have industry to blame.

Um, well, guess what, Wayne....

They will blame REEForm. They will know your name and curse you, if I have to visit every village personally...

And the live reef food fish trade, the one that really causes the damage to the reef, will florish. And REEForm and only REEForm will be to blame for that destruction.

Maybe you should concentrate your efforts on reforming the Chinese on their love of live reef food fish...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

Industry will be responsible for its own destruction.
With the major segment of their market gone, fishers and their families and exporters and their workers will be in tough economic shape. They will have industry to blame.

Um, well, guess what, Wayne....

They will blame REEForm. They will know your name and curse you, if I have to visit every village personally...

And the live reef food fish trade, the one that really causes the damage to the reef, will florish. And REEForm and only REEForm will be to blame for that destruction.

Maybe you should concentrate your efforts on reforming the Chinese on their love of live reef food fish...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

NO industry is responsible as is everyone who sits by and allows this to continue and attempts to defend this. Cyanide use cannot be defended. It is immoral and illegal.

And No, my efforts and the efforts of REEForm are fully concentrated against those who are involved with cyanide in the industry in our hobby.

A total embargo against fish imported from the Philippines and Indonesia will stop the cyanide trade. It is the only solution.

 

[naesco]

Why?

Because you know real embargoes mean starving children? Because a real embargo on Philippine and Indonesian fish would mean the children of net-fishermen and cyanide-fishermen would go hungry?

Is that why you would want to hide Wayne Ryan's threats from outer space? Not because they are real threats, but because they look like feces smeared inside a public bathroom stall?

Well, for all of the above, John, and a whole lot more.

Any organization that advocates a total ban on imports as a way of 'solving' the cyanide problem is just plain loonie. And that is an insult to loons everywhere!

It is as crazy as throwing red paint on people who wear fur.
Or take caged-raised fur critters and release them into the wild to starve, a slow nasty death if ever there was one.

It is Wayne's refusal to listen to anything that doesn't run the straight and narrow of his mind. Nothing will temper his views, there is no working together nor compromise, nor moderation. Just this in your face, my way or the highway attitude, even when the evidence of the hardship of his views stares him straight in the face. Wayne has never gone hungry, that much I can guarantee you...

For me, having seen the people that "Reeform" would impact, I could not in good conscience support Wayne's vision. And, John, I know you feel the exact same way.

There is a better way, Wayne. One that will work.
I've explained it to you again and again, yet it still doesn't seem to sink in.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

So, Mike help us. Help reform, Help our hobby.

Get industry together. Get them to make a committment and fund the training and materials and education necessary to end to cyanide use.
Show REEForm a timeline. And, we will talk!

Mike, the citizens who sprayed red paint on the furs of the wealthy destroyed the fur industry in Canada. They put a spotlight on an industry which refused to control itself, refused to believe they were in deep deep trouble and ignored public opinion. The government stepped in and the industry was finished. Ditto for the seal industry.

Think about this Mike. As we post, cyanide is being used in OUR industry destroying the reefs and all critters in them. Whether you agree with REEForm is not relavent. If you wish this destruction to end, use your influence and your experience to get industry to accept our demands for a committment and a timeline.

 

[Anonymous]

so, naesco...


have you broken down your tank and given all of your fish away yet?

remember-as long as you even buy supplies for your charges-you are complicit in supporting the very 'evil' you keep crying out against

what a freakin' hypocrite you are :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

And Wayne still hasn't addressed the food fish industry that'll still maintain it's major use of cyanide after he "kills" our industry. What about it Wayne? They'll have EVEN MORE cyanide divers as our indusrties cyanide divers (and most likely even the good, will be forced by ReeFORM's actions to convert to cyanide to eek out a living) will slip right on over after you "kill" our industry for them, making it a senseless and thoughtless action by ReeFORM. Hong Kong will salute you Wayne, so will the cyanide food fishers cartel. Good job buddy!!!

 

[PeterIMA]

Gresham, By now you should realize that it is easier to shut down the aquarium fish trade. It affects Americans and Canadians (marine hobbyists) and comes under US and Canadian laws (like the Lacey Act in the USA). So, irrespective of whether or not more cyanide is used by the Live Food Fish Trade, the marine ornamentals trade can be more easily targeted. Naesco is right. You guys will be the first target. It will take more time to deal with those B....ds in Hong Kong.

Peter Rubec
Somewhere between Reform and Reeform

 

[mkirda]

[So, Mike help us. Help reform, Help our hobby.

What the heck do you think I've been trying to do, Wayne? How can *anyone* take you seriously when you continue to spout this incessant blather?

A great example of this:

Get industry together. Get them to make a committment and fund the training and materials and education necessary to end to cyanide use.
Show REEForm a timeline. And, we will talk!

I thought we were talking now?

How the heck do you think I can compel a company, let alone an entire industry, to do *ANYTHING*, Naesco? Your approach will not yield the results you want, that much is assured. You fight, they fight back, Naesco. This is human nature. Your approach ensures that NOTHING CHANGES, therefore you are more complicit than they are...

Mike, the citizens who sprayed red paint on the furs of the wealthy destroyed the fur industry in Canada. They put a spotlight on an industry which refused to control itself, refused to believe they were in deep deep trouble and ignored public opinion. The government stepped in and the industry was finished. Ditto for the seal industry.

They were criminals, Naesco, who destroyed private property. They should have been arrested and thrown in jail. You know, by the same logic, you support the murder of anyone who has ever walked through the doors of an abortion clinic too. Fur protestors, no matter how pure their intentions, are extremists in the worst sense. I have/had no love for the fur industry as was practiced in Canada. Fur 'farms' are far more humane, IMO. Yet fur protestors never try to distinguish between the two. The funniest thing of all really is that they rode on the tails of decreasing comsumer demand anyway. Fur was no longer as fashionable, so the industry was already in a decline. They ended up claiming 'victory' for what was in reality decreased consumer demand. What a hollow victory that is. :roll:

Think about this Mike. As we post, cyanide is being used in OUR industry destroying the reefs and all critters in them. Whether you agree with REEForm is not relavent. If you wish this destruction to end, use your influence and your experience to get industry to accept our demands for a committment and a timeline.

"Our" demands? There is no "our", Wayne. I have no "demands" on industry.

I've provided you with rational economic analyses several times before on how things could work, benefiting all, without the threats to industry.
For some reason, you ignored them all.
Because the economics behind your ideas is not sound, you will fail. Simple as that.

And, Wayne... "our" industry? You are a lawyer, ferchisakes. You use cyanide regularly? I'm in computers and I can tell you that I sure don't.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

And Wayne still hasn't addressed the food fish industry that'll still maintain it's major use of cyanide after he "kills" our industry. What about it Wayne? They'll have EVEN MORE cyanide divers as our indusrties cyanide divers (and most likely even the good, will be forced by ReeFORM's actions to convert to cyanide to eek out a living) will slip right on over after you "kill" our industry for them, making it a senseless and thoughtless action by ReeFORM. Hong Kong will salute you Wayne, so will the cyanide food fishers cartel. Good job buddy!!!

And I am not going to adress the food fish industry yet.
The target is the industry in our hobby. Those that deal with cyanide fish both in P/I and stateside.

Rather than admit that REEForm will "kill" our industry why don't you put pressure on them to make a committment to stop the use of cyanide and fund the necessary training, education and materials and provide REEForm with a timeline.

 

[mkirda]

Rather than admit that REEForm will "kill" our industry why don't you put pressure on them to make a committment to stop the use of cyanide and fund the necessary training, education and materials and provide REEForm with a timeline.

Look, Wayne. Instead of wasting your time on the boards, why not *DO* something about it? Go meet with the heads of 'industry' in the Philippines, and see what they will do to fix the problem. I'll even provide you with a letter of introduction.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

And I am not going to adress the food fish industry yet.

As the largest consumers and users of cyanide for fishing, shouldn't they be targeted FIRST?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[flameangel1]

naesco,
Why should any of us provide your "reeform", with anything ???? You are a fanatic and I for one, who care very much about the cyanide issue, can see all sides of it. YOU DO NOT !!!!!
Narrow minded people ( definition of a "fanatic" )refuse to see anything but what they WANT to see and never look at the whole picture.

And stop harping, please, on industry not doing anything about the issue !!!
Mary, Steve/Ferdinand etc ARE doing something and doing it in a responsible manner also. YOU ARE NOT !!!!
For petes sake, we just collected the money to send netting over to PI and help, plus many of us are very careful about not buying cyanide fish NOW !!!!
More to be done yes, but this is a whole lot more than has been done in the past and things are getting better every day.

All you are accomplishing by your tirades, is making many of us angry at you . Not at the target you are aspiring to !!!!

 

[naesco]

And I am not going to adress the food fish industry yet.

As the largest consumers and users of cyanide for fishing, shouldn't they be targeted FIRST?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Yes Mike but I feel a personal responsibility and committement to clean up our hobby's dirty little secret first.

Flameangel
The posts are to inform you of REEForms's position and its committement to see the end of cyanide use. As I stated to others, put all the pressure you can to get industry to make the committment to stop the use of cyanide and provide REEForm with a timeline.

 

[flameangel1]

naesco
I honestly think you are trying to "make a name" for yourself and get your 15 minutes of fame, with all your repetitive bu------t !!!!

You are NOT targeting the cyanide problem as a whole, but seem to be more vindictive against "industry". I wonder if you even realize WHO "industry" is ???????

Yes, there are bad people--but there are a lot of good people and a lot of children involved also !!!! Do you really like to see hungry children ?????
I dont !!!!
You can shut down my shop and I dont really care, but I DO care about the children !!!!!

 

[Anonymous]

Rather than admit that REEForm will "kill" our industry why don't you put pressure on them to make a committment to stop the use of cyanide and fund the necessary training, education and materials and provide REEForm with a timeline.

You mean like only deal in net collected tropical marines since 1978? Or the the fact my boss will leave the business for several weeks during a key time at our business, to train & educate for free, risking what little income being net-caught only produces? Or the fact we've supplied divers with netting for years? We're small, but we've been doing it right from the get go. We've always done our part, how bout you Wayne? Why would ANYONE provide a, unaccountable, nor transeparent, no infastructure group like ReeFORM with anything? You haven't provided us with ANY info about your group other then, "we'll shut you down if you don't work with us, provide us with your plan for the future of the hobby because we have none".

ps. We can't put pressure on our exporters to become clean, they're all ready clean. Oh, you mean put pressure on the ones we don't deal with, that'll work. T

 

[John_Brandt]

Wayne Ryan,

Show up at MACNA...or demonstrate to Industry that you do not mean business.

 

[naesco]

Wayne Ryan,

Show up at MACNA...or demonstrate to Industry that you do not mean business.

Thank you for the kind invitation but I think it is too late.
We would like to have a REEForm supporter address the meeting and show a brief movie. I think that is not possible at the last minute. We would need to set up an information booth and print materials as well.
We will have a meeting either in Vancouver or Los Angeles this fall.
Reeform will invite the following.
a. Representatives of the wholesale and import industry.
b. Representatives of the export industries from both Indonesia and the Philippines
c.Representatives from the Government of Canada and the USA.
d.Representatives from the Govenment of the Philippines and Indonesia
e. The Presidents of MASNA, CORL and AMDA
f. Dr. Peter Rubec from IMA.
g. The Executive Secretary of MAC
h. Optionally representatives of other public interest organizations.

 

[MaryHM]

God Wayne. You really crack me up because I don't think you even realize how ridiculous you sound. You want the cyanide trade to stop NOW NOW NOW, but you can't even get your act together in a month to print some information and address an open meeting?? Please, keep it coming. The entertainment value alone is worth it!! :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
We will all be at MACNA...ITS THE PLACE TO START.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

so, naesco...


have you broken down your tank and given all of your fish away yet?

I don't think he's willing to give up his pretty tangs.

remember-as long as you even buy supplies for your charges-you are complicit in supporting the very 'evil' you keep crying out against

I would also like to point out to naesco that if it weren't also for the advent of quality faux furs the trade in Canada might not have been brought down as "neatly" as it was. What is lacking in your analogy here is the fact that there is no replacement--only a few folks would be happy with those bobbling plastic fishes in their tanks instead. Also, when targeting the fur industry in Canada, there was nothing and no one else contributing to the "problem". That cannot be said for the cyanide use on Indo-Philippine reefs.