Industry must now face the wrath of the law

[PeterIMA]

Gresham, I happen to agree with you. Naesco is overstating the case.

NGOs did a lot. Unfortunately, the Philippine government failed to enforce laws against cyanide fishing. Despite millions of dollars in foreign aid for fisheries management and coastal zone management very little (not nothing) has been accomplished to stop cyanide fishing over the long term.

 

[Anonymous]

the Philippine government failed to enforce laws against cyanide fishing

Now were getting to core issues here. We should get Lino Alverez of MAC to chime in on behalf of BFAR.

 

[Anonymous]

This who your talking about neasco?

 

[clarionreef]

True Peter,
BFAR has a dismal record of promoting rational resource management in one of the worlds most wounded coral reef areas.
They have abdicated the role of guardians of the peoples patrimony to the ol cash and carry system and betrayed their own revolution.
Net training, management planning, the CDT etc. all suffered to a paralysis of incompetence, political infighting and corruption...just like under Marcos.
The brightest lights are in some local areas now. The director just wants to retire peacefully and it is election year.
steve

 

[Anonymous]

the Philippine government failed to enforce laws against cyanide fishing

Now were getting to core issues here. We should get Lino Alverez of MAC to chime in on behalf of BFAR.

good luck :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Khan!
Now if Khan was after the cartel, it would be a different story!
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry Steve, his hair is white for a reason, bleached from all the cyanide he's squirted. Notice the wound? He got that fighting with the exporters over pricing. You can see how the divers are treated like dogs, notice the collar?

 

[clarionreef]

Alas,
They'll never speak and are afraid of public discourse...of course.
Tis better then to be thought a fool
then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt!
Installing MACs main man in Manila into the office of BFAR...WAS A REAL COUP. YA GOTTA HAND IT TO EM.
Its probably an illegal conflict of interest to misuse the public office to shunt policy in favor of a foreign NGO...on salary from said NGO, but hey, its the Philippines!
Unknowing, innocent Filipinos are the victims still. The lack of dynamic action of the past years when so much is at stake and so much was lost is close to treason in my view.
Steve

 

[naesco]

It is a lot easier bashing MAC they facing the reality that something must be done.
Engage in semanics all you want but the reality is that as you engage, the cyanide cartel in having its way with the Philippine reefs.

Serious training will be a reality when a CDT is in place and violators of America's law face justice and its punishment.
So Steve, when you are finished with the prose, why don't you make a call and let the justice system determine which of the cyanide cartel is most deserving of being first at the docket.

 

[mkirda]

So Steve, when you are finished with the prose, why don't you make a call and let the justice system determine which of the cyanide cartel is most deserving of being first at the docket.

Naesco,

Just turn in the whole lot of the importers down on 104th. Anyone here who brings in fish from the Philippines is likely guilty.
While you are at it, here is a link to the PTFEA. There might be one or two on here worth turning in too.
http://ptfea.org/

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Funny thing is Mike, Neasco told us he called all them months ago, so he knows who they are. I had a discussion with one of them about neasco at the last MANCA as a matter of fact.

 

[clarionreef]

Why yes Wayne,
SINCE YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN TALKING TO THE BOYS ON 104TH ST. IN LA...what kind of game is it to now ask who they are?
Since you already know the main importers....which is very common knowledge anyway...why ask me for their names?
Its hard to ever take you seriously.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve makes many good points. To paraphrase, he seems to be stating that it is better to change the minds and hearts of the collectors away from cyanide to net-collecting.

I would agree that it is actually cheaper to train collectors than it is to conduct widespread random sampling and CDT, and then prosecute the cases in court (in either PI or Indo). The MAC also needs to realize that before they can certify either collectors or exporters there should be sufficient numbers of net-caught fish to sustain the aquarium trade. If only a few exporters have net-caught fish, then only those who make the effort should be certified. The trade (or funders like Packard) need to realize the truth and change their priorities. I am still in favor of a CDT but acknowledge that spending money on net-training can have more immediate benefits and economic returns for the collectors and those in the aquarium trade (ie, those buying and selling MO fish).

Peter

 

[naesco]

So Steve, when you are finished with the prose, why don't you make a call and let the justice system determine which of the cyanide cartel is most deserving of being first at the docket.

Naesco,

Just turn in the whole lot of the importers down on 104th. Anyone here who brings in fish from the Philippines is likely guilty.
While you are at it, here is a link to the PTFEA. There might be one or two on here worth turning in too.
http://ptfea.org/

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Thanks Mike for the information

 

[naesco]

Steve makes many good points. To paraphrase, he seems to be stating that it is better to change the minds and hearts of the collectors away from cyanide to net-collecting.

I would agree that it is actually cheaper to train collectors than it is to conduct widespread random sampling and CDT, and then prosecute the cases in court (in either PI or Indo). The MAC also needs to realize that before they can certify either collectors or exporters there should be sufficient numbers of net-caught fish to sustain the aquarium trade. If only a few exporters have net-caught fish, then only those who make the effort should be certified. The trade (or funders like Packard) need to realize the truth and change their priorities. I am still in favor of a CDT but acknowledge that spending money on net-training can have more immediate benefits and economic returns for the collectors and those in the aquarium trade (ie, those buying and selling MO fish).

Peter

Correct me if I am wrong Dr. Rubec but as I understand it several years ago there was CDT testing done.
As a result of the existance of CDT, statistics showed that the percentage of cyanide poisoned fish declined.
When the CDT was abandoned, statistics than showed and increase in the percentage of cyanide poisoned fish.

 

[Anonymous]

So Steve, when you are finished with the prose, why don't you make a call and let the justice system determine which of the cyanide cartel is most deserving of being first at the docket.

Naesco,

Just turn in the whole lot of the importers down on 104th. Anyone here who brings in fish from the Philippines is likely guilty.
While you are at it, here is a link to the PTFEA. There might be one or two on here worth turning in too.
http://ptfea.org/

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Thanks Mike for the information

awww mike, ya big stoolie :twisted: :lol:

 

[devils advocate]

Naesco,

Other than anecdotal evidence, how could the percentage increase be shown? I thought the only way to prove cyanide capture of fish, other than witnessing cyanide use first hand, was to grind up the fish and test for it's (CN) presence.

 

[PeterIMA]

Devil's advocate, There was a subsample tested each year from 1996 to 2001 (about 1500 to 3000 fish) that defined the trend. The percentage with cyanide present decreased to 1999 then increased in 2000 (2001 is not summarized in the paper) Fish were ground up and tested as you stated.

In the CDT paper I discuss possible causes of the trend. One factor is that the IMA did net-training so an alternative was provided to the collectors. In addition the CDT results were used to support prosecution of cyanide fishermen. So there was both a carrot and a stick. It was not just prosections based on cyanide testing that produced the declining trend referred to by Naesco.


The MAC has pre-empted these programs. They are presently doing net-training in Mindanao. Their latest newsletter claims (unsubstantiated how) that there is a problem with the existing CDT (formerly used by IMA and now by BFAR) and that they plan to implement sampling and CDT on MAC certified exporters (through BFAR). It remains to be seen whether they can do a better job than the IMA.

 

[naesco]

Naesco,

Other than anecdotal evidence, how could the percentage increase be shown? I thought the only way to prove cyanide capture of fish, other than witnessing cyanide use first hand, was to grind up the fish and test for it's (CN) presence.

I think Dr. Rubec has anwered that now but it makes common sense that if the cyanide cartel was aware the government was checking up on them, they would be following over themselves supporting net training and buying cyanide free fish.
Why? Because they would go to gaol.

 

[PeterIMA]

Wayne, I know you are Canadian, but is there such a word as "gaol"? Don't you mean jail?

Peter