Quarantine System Advice.

[Anonymous]

Two different games Rover. You don't see the packing we see, you get to see US standards, rather then PI spoon fulls. Plus, wholesalers are your buffer for most of the DOA and weak fish that are imported, you don't even get to see the half of it.

Fish stressing out in bags while drip acclimating, see, again, we're talking about two different situations. We couldn't possiably drip acclimate a single fish in a bag for many reasons. For one, the amount of water in most bags isn't even enough to allow enough dilution of incoming acclimation water, not to mention several thousand bags would sure require alot of drippers! Simply dumping a fish straight outa the dag into our system would load our system up with tons of ammonia laden water, the worst enemy. Floating several thousand bags would sure be fun though

BTW, good to know your accliamtion protocals, we'll have to change our DOA policy for your store accordingly J/K

 

[Anonymous]

We tend to just acclimate for temp and dump. We used to do the slow drip and acclimate for pH and salinity, but often had fish stressing out in the bags. We have very little loss. I figure the sooner you get them out of the polluted water and into clean water the better. ie prolonged exposure is worse than a salinity or pH jump.

In a shop operation that's one way to go about it (small op), but when you're talking volume you'd be far better off using trays. Although, Doug Swinehart, the old-timer I first worked for, only did this with the salties we'd get from 104th. The freshwater fish were being brought straight in from Hong Kong, Taiwan, and some other areas of Asia. Those fish didn't spend much time in the bags, as they'd already been in there for at least a day, usually two.

When I moved to another facility we were getting the fish direct from COOs (country of origin), and those animals went into the trays for sure, always with a drip. The shock of pH change alone, even if it's bad, can kill pretty quickly in my experience.

-----------
Edited to say, "Oops, I missed your post, Gresh!"

 

[Anonymous]

WHat DOA's?

None of the bag water makes it into our system. Just the fish. I tend to think of it as a fish swimming through a polluted channel and suddenly "coming ot of it".

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, a polluted channel with a what, ph of low 7s, and an ammonia reading that is almost toxic?

Again, two different worlds. In retail I did the ol float and cut method myslef, but we had a seperate Q system that was brought down in PH to match incoming as well as matched salinity. We acclimated new stuff into this prior to hitting our sales system. The Q was on the floor so customer could put fish on hold until they were ready to be sold. A great system, worked great for us.

 

[Anonymous]

WHat DOA's?

None of the bag water makes it into our system. Just the fish. I tend to think of it as a fish swimming through a polluted channel and suddenly "coming ot of it".

one thing you may want to take into consideration are the buildup of toxins in the fish's tissues themselves, FROM the polluted water, though this is maybe less of an issue with fish bought post tanking in a wholesaler's here in the states

i'd fully acclimate whenever i can, for it's entirely possible a us supplier just got the fish the same day they ship out to you, and didn't acclimate at all

ammonia will burn a fish from the inside out, if it isn't properly flushed w/low ph sw for a nite, after arriving in the us

i've seen it happen w/transshhipped fish quite often, 'till i had the fortune to work for a place that flushed all new arrivals, transshipped or not, in a drip tray raceway of low ph system water, for 12-24 hrs

there's no 'suddenly coming out of it' involved, ever-whatever's in the water will be in a fish, the extent only varies according to how long the fish was 'swimming in that water', and how long it had a chance to flush itself out at the importers

rover-you should see what a transshipment is like-a 2" clown (sometimes 3") in a betta bag, w/literally 1-2 tablespoonfuls of water-mebbe sitting that way in the box for over 2 days, from moment of packing (in prob'ly already polluted water)

 

[Anonymous]

Heh.. gotta love those betta bags.

 

[Kalkbreath]

WHat DOA's?

None of the bag water makes it into our system. Just the fish. I tend to think of it as a fish swimming through a polluted channel and suddenly "coming ot of it".

one thing you may want to take into consideration are the buildup of toxins in the fish's tissues themselves, FROM the polluted water, though this is maybe less of an issue with fish bought post tanking in a wholesaler's here in the states

i'd fully acclimate whenever i can, for it's entirely possible a us supplier just got the fish the same day they ship out to you, and didn't acclimate at all

ammonia will burn a fish from the inside out, if it isn't properly flushed w/low ph sw for a nite, after arriving in the us

i've seen it happen w/transshhipped fish quite often, 'till i had the fortune to work for a place that flushed all new arrivals, transshipped or not, in a drip tray raceway of low ph system water, for 12-24 hrs

there's no 'suddenly coming out of it' involved, ever-whatever's in the water will be in a fish, the extent only varies according to how long the fish was 'swimming in that water', and how long it had a chance to flush itself out at the importers

rover-you should see what a transshipment is like-a 2" clown (sometimes 3") in a betta bag, w/literally 1-2 tablespoonfuls of water-mebbe sitting that way in the box for over 2 days, from moment of packing (in prob'ly already polluted water)

I agree with vitz....See its the fish that is being acclimated......not the bag water. I can do a 100% water change of the bag water, in five seconds..........But getting the ammonia out of the fish takes over night. :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

our typical dose for system wide treatment was 2 drops per gallon in the system, while individual tanks w/identifiable problems (turns out to be more w/fw fish, like ropefish,that come in w/an interesting worm from the wild)are dosed to as high a level as is possible, depending on the hardiness of the species

those tanks are either water changed, or heavily aerated before going back online

the in line uv's most better lfs's run on large multiple tank systems also break down formalin rather rapidly

Ive got 500 watts per five hundred gallons UV.[five twelve x 40 watt gangs] On my systems I dont cut off the UV when I dose Formaldehyde. {37%} Its not an algae bloom and it goes away twenty-four hours after it appears. When it does clear up , the water looks Ultra clear! Terry , have you ever heard of this? Cloudy water after a 10 mil per fifty gallons? Ps I dont use it for Crypto..........its cloudy eyes , Clownfish and flukes that im after. In two years I have never had a direct shipment come in with Crypto. Only if its tanked over night in LAX that i ever get Crypto ......I point this out because in my opinion.......95% of all infestations happen in the final holding tanks not in the shipping water or on the fish. The source is domestic. Carefully Acclimating newly imported fish to achieve a clean arrival .......is pointless if the final resting place after all the aclimation proto call is in Typhoid Marys bath water!

 

[Jayson]

Kalk, you have to turn off the UV when treating with formaldahyde. 24 hours later you can turn the UV back on.

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe I'm not understanding something. Fish is in ammonia saturated water. pH keeps ammonia from being too toxic. Ammonia is in fish (How exactly?). Fish goes into clean system water (pH 8.3, SG 1.025). The ammonia is flushed out into the water.

I'm unclear on why you would want to take a longer time to flush the fish.

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe I'm not understanding something. Fish is in ammonia saturated water. pH keeps ammonia from being too toxic. Ammonia is in fish (How exactly?). Fish goes into clean system water (pH 8.3, SG 1.025). The ammonia is flushed out into the water.

I'm unclear on why you would want to take a longer time to flush the fish.

the ammonia in the water gets absorbed into the fish's tissues.

the fish can't just dump the ammonia out lickety split

so- even though the ammonia may be removed from the water, it's still inside the fish

afaik- the increasing ph will also somehow get into the fish(mebbe the extra hydrogen ions cross over into cell tissues via osmosis?)

either way, if you take a fish from ammonia laden water that it's been it for quite awhile, and you lace it in high pH water, after it dies, you will even see how the ammonia burned the fish's gills, after inspection


try an experiment...

take a damsel, place it in a 5 gal tank...lower the ph slowly to around neutral...then add ammonia to the tank, mebbe at 2.0 ppm. (at neutral, the ammonia will not be toxic)

leave the fish in the tank for a day..then do a water change, with new aged sw, at a ph of 7.8-8.0

watch the fish die from internal ammonia burn, as it's gills get fried

 

[Anonymous]

Whoa, I never knew that at a neutral pH ammonia is not toxic at levels that high.

 

[Anonymous]

Gotcha. So you keep the pH low to give the fish time to fkush the ammonia before the pH in the system water makes it toxic in the fish. What is the best way to lower the pH of synthetic sea water, and what pH are you shooting for, nuetral?

 

[Anonymous]

Whoa, I never knew that at a neutral pH ammonia is not toxic at levels that high.

i believe the cutoff point is neutral -it may be slightly lower, like 6.9-6.8

it doesn't matter how high the ammonia is, the ammonia itself changes form (to ammonium, mebbe?), and it's non toxic

 

[Anonymous]

Still, 6.9-6.8 is pretty close to neutral (though, out here, unless using RO/DI or distilled water damned near unattainable). Learning something new each day.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk, you have to turn off the UV when treating with formaldahyde. 24 hours later you can turn the UV back on.

I understand that the UV is going to effect the Formalin....I kinda want the UV to take it out , that way its kinda like a dip................But whats the cloudy water from .......24 hours later? If the formalin is getting wacked by the 500 watts of UV then something from the formalin is staying around stong enough to effect the waterthe next day ?

 

[Anonymous]

Gotcha. So you keep the pH low to give the fish time to fkush the ammonia before the pH in the system water makes it toxic in the fish. What is the best way to lower the pH of synthetic sea water, and what pH are you shooting for, nuetral?

if you're using a seperate system, and it get's flushed out anyway, regular sodium biphosphate will even do, yhough you'll need ALOT

regular vinegar may also be good

we used some product whose name i can't recall, may have been made by seachem,that was kinda like a very concentrated form of sodium biphosphate

one head's up-the ph at first will drop, and bounce back, dose after dose, as the alkali reserve first gets used up, then the ph reducer will drop the ph fairly quick- it takes a few times before ya get the hang of how to dose it

kinda like the way Ca test kits change color very rapidly at the end, when the initial reagent drops change the color slightly, and bounce back :wink:

you may get some cyano outbreaks in the 'q' system, due to all the phosphate you're pumpin into it-'swhy it's good to flush all the water completely between 'treatments'.

having said all that, if you're experience is that the fish you get usually aren't a problem re: doa/daa's up till now, the whole 'flushing ammonia' thing may not be relevant for your situation-it's more for transhipped livestock :wink:

 

[Terry B]

Hi Gresham,
Yes, I do think it is wise to remove the fish quickly from the shipping bag and place them in a holding facility. As several here have already mentioned, exposure to a normal pH when the fish have absorbed ammonia can be toxic to fish and costly in terms of losses. I feel that it is better to acclimate the fish slowly back to an optimal pH and temperature over a couple of days rather than suddenly. You are in effect acclimating the fish, but you are doing it over a couple of days rather than a short period.

Thanks for the idea of linking the articles together. I will suggest your idea to Terry Siegel at Advanced Aquarist. Your idea will come in handy for the upcoming series on stress in fish.
Terry B

 

[Terry B]

Kalk,
I think what you are seeing is probably a die off of bacteria. I assume that you have biological filtration in the system and formalin is quite deadly to those bacteria. I am not sure how formalin helps cloudy eyes because cloudy eyes are most often an indicator of bacterial infection. However, the primary pathogen is often parasitic and the cause of a secondary bacterial infection.

You say that your rarely have a direct shipment some in with Crypto? This may be true if the fish were not ever in a holding facility. Where the fish kept in plastic bags the entire time between capture and delivery to you? Do you examine skin scarping, or samples from the gills or fins under a microscope? I believe that the majority of wild caught specimens do not harbor ich when they are captured. Once they are placed in a holding tank that is another matter.

I am not particularly a fan of long-term baths with formalin. I do think formalin is a valuable tool when used in short baths at a higher dose (1ml/gal for 45 minutes while aerated). I do understand how this may not be practical when handling a volume of fish. Can you treat just the suspect fish, or do you have to treat the entire shipment?

Have you ever tried nifurpirinol as a one hour dip for bacterial infection?
Terry B

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
I think what you are seeing is probably a die off of bacteria. I assume that you have biological filtration in the system and formalin is quite deadly to those bacteria. I am not sure how formalin helps cloudy eyes because cloudy eyes are most often an indicator of bacterial infection. However, the primary pathogen is often parasitic and the cause of a secondary bacterial infection.

Why would you think formalin only effects the Nitrosom bateria? I use it to clear out a system of all bateria Good and Bad. Not as a treatment for secondary Bateria within the fish but kinda like bleach.......to purge a system of bateria and parasitic algae seeking a host {like otherfishes eyeballs} Unlike copper, I have never had a bad reaction from the fish . {they like it} I have never heard of nifurpirinol does it have a trade name?