Quarantine System Advice.

[Terry B]

I don't think that formalin only kills the bacteria that perform demineralization. Formalin can kill a lot of things including fish. It is highly toxic, stressful, immunosuppressive and very irritating to delicate gill tissues. Formalin won't do a thing to help systemic bacterial infections, but it can suppress immune function to the point that the fish can become suceptible to pathogens that might otherwise not be a problem.

You need to be very careful when using it. Formalin removes oxygen from the water and it becomes more toxic as the water temperature rises. I don't even recomend using it at 80F or higher. If the fish have recently been transported or handled the mucus/scale/skin barrier may be compromised (the fish may also be wounded). Don't use formalin on any fish that has just been transported or has a wound. I would not use formalin on a fish that has just been fed either due to the increased oxygen demand during digestion. I would also be very careful not to use a net when transfering a fish into a formalin dip (you will probably need a net to remove it from the dip).

The reason that you should aerate the dip prior to and during a formalin dip is to remove the chemical (extremely toxic) that is used to stablize formalin and to keep some oxygen in the water. Have you seen the article that I wrote for SeaScope on using formaldehyde?

Nifurpirinol is sold as Furanace not to be confused with Furacyn.
Terry B

 

[Anonymous]

i've used formalin extensively terry, and all of my experience seems to run contrary to your cautions

i've had discus spawn following system wide heavy formalin treatments (it's possible that the spawn was stress induced, but my personal observations on the condition of the discus prior, and post, treatment, lead me to believe otherwise)

i've used formalin on most tetras, rasboras (including dwarf rasboras), rainbows,chocolate/craoking/sparkling gouramis,corys, most sw fish typically carried in any decent good sized lfs, and even loaches in low doses, in store systems, sometimes in fairly intense short term baths

one of my standard prophylactic treatments is a combination of both formalin and malachite green, administered to a system either weekly, or twice a week, depending on frequency of arriving shipments-i've found that it seemed to work wonders on affecting daa issues-ALL tangs i recieved got a tank treatment-i have never had a problem w/ich breakouts (as well as 'black ich) post tanking, since adopting the regimen, and 'sliming' of clowns (brooklynella) went down to almost zero, on wild caughts

with constant monitoring of nitrogenous subtance levels, like ammonia and nitrite, i've never seen it impact any of the wet/dry filter system running in the stores i, or my co-workers, have used it in-however- system uv's were always left operational, and good aeration/circulation is, imo, a key to succeeding w/formalin treatments

i've taken tanks offline, and dosed them rather heavily, for hours at a time, to have the formalin then flushed into the system after a bath

and i've dosed large systems daily at one to two drops + a gallon, daily, with no apparent ill affects, even on specimens like kuhli loaches, which are thought of to be extremely sensitive to most medications, with the exception of methylene blue



i do think that many medications act differently in practice, than what they may be known to under 'lab' conditions-sometimes a drug may act in a less destructive fashion than what it should, sometimes more

alot depends, as well, in how the fish being treated are observed and handled DURING the treatment

as with copper, i believe that the short term effects of certain chemicals aren't nearly as bad as many people seem to think they will be

having said all that, i can't stress enough the importance of CONTINUAL monitoring and observation of all fish/animals that are being treated with any type of drug/chemical, by someone with an eye well trained and experienced enough to know to pick up signs of negative reactions to whatever they are treating with


i, too, thought formalin was etrememly nasty, and should never be used, until i was shown by others who used it quite extensively, that it may not be so 'evil', after all-now i would never hesitate to use it, properly, and with constant and proper monitoring of the systems it's used on

i turned around a rainbowfish system from being a constant daa system,(from various disease outbreaks) to one where the rainbows were almmost always engaged on courtship displays and spawning rituals in tank at the store -the difference was like night and day

(the improved overall care i introduced to the stores husbandry practices contributed by no small amount, i'm sure, such as proper feeding and water changes)

if used knowledgeably, in combination w/good husbandry overall, i think that both copper, and formalin, can be very helpful tools in an lfs setting

just my $0.02

 

[hdtran]

Hi, Terry,

My very dim distant memory of biochemistry 101 says that Formalin is a solution of formaldehyde in water, mixed with about 10% methanol to prevent the formaldehyde from polymerizing into paraformaldehyde.

In humans, methanol is metabolized by the liver into formaldehyde. This is why wood alcohol (methanol) is poisonous, whereas ethanol (grain alcohol) is less so (metabolizes into acetone).

Hy

 

[Terry B]

Hdtran,
I would say that you haven't lost your long-term memory yet.
Terry B :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

i've used formalin extensively terry, and all of my experience seems to run contrary to your cautions

i've had discus spawn following system wide heavy formalin treatments (it's possible that the spawn was stress induced, but my personal observations on the condition of the discus prior, and post, treatment, lead me to believe otherwise)

i've used formalin on most tetras, rasboras (including dwarf rasboras), rainbows,chocolate/craoking/sparkling gouramis,corys, most sw fish typically carried in any decent good sized lfs, and even loaches in low doses, in store systems, sometimes in fairly intense short term baths

one of my standard prophylactic treatments is a combination of both formalin and malachite green, administered to a system either weekly, or twice a week, depending on frequency of arriving shipments-i've found that it seemed to work wonders on affecting daa issues-ALL tangs i recieved got a tank treatment-i have never had a problem w/ich breakouts (as well as 'black ich) post tanking, since adopting the regimen, and 'sliming' of clowns (brooklynella) went down to almost zero, on wild caughts

with constant monitoring of nitrogenous subtance levels, like ammonia and nitrite, i've never seen it impact any of the wet/dry filter system running in the stores i, or my co-workers, have used it in-however- system uv's were always left operational, and good aeration/circulation is, imo, a key to succeeding w/formalin treatments

i've taken tanks offline, and dosed them rather heavily, for hours at a time, to have the formalin then flushed into the system after a bath

and i've dosed large systems daily at one to two drops + a gallon, daily, with no apparent ill affects, even on specimens like kuhli loaches, which are thought of to be extremely sensitive to most medications, with the exception of methylene blue



i do think that many medications act differently in practice, than what they may be known to under 'lab' conditions-sometimes a drug may act in a less destructive fashion than what it should, sometimes more

alot depends, as well, in how the fish being treated are observed and handled DURING the treatment

as with copper, i believe that the short term effects of certain chemicals aren't nearly as bad as many people seem to think they will be

having said all that, i can't stress enough the importance of CONTINUAL monitoring and observation of all fish/animals that are being treated with any type of drug/chemical, by someone with an eye well trained and experienced enough to know to pick up signs of negative reactions to whatever they are treating with


i, too, thought formalin was etrememly nasty, and should never be used, until i was shown by others who used it quite extensively, that it may not be so 'evil', after all-now i would never hesitate to use it, properly, and with constant and proper monitoring of the systems it's used on

i turned around a rainbowfish system from being a constant daa system,(from various disease outbreaks) to one where the rainbows were almmost always engaged on courtship displays and spawning rituals in tank at the store -the difference was like night and day

(the improved overall care i introduced to the stores husbandry practices contributed by no small amount, i'm sure, such as proper feeding and water changes)

if used knowledgeably, in combination w/good husbandry overall, i think that both copper, and formalin, can be very helpful tools in an lfs setting

just my $0.02

I agree with Vitz, and actually I am beginning to respect your experiences quite a bit Vitz. While I also respect Terry on many issues, Formalin and malachite green are a staple of every freshwater wholesaler I know and with very few ill effects from its use. I think the focal point for Terry seems to be the individual fish , but the health of the system plays a far greater role in health of the guests{fish} . When we treat for ick or pathogens we tend to think of treating the system .......which wont be remedied by dipping the guests. We think along the lines of "dipping" the entire system :wink:

 

[Terry B]

I do occasionally recommend using copper, but only Cupramine by Seachem. I just don’t find that it is necessary to use copper that often when there are viable (and I believe better) options for the treatment of ich (i.e. hyposalinity therapy). Personally, I see several advantages in using hyposaline conditions rather than copper under most circumstances.

I do recognize that using my modified transfer method (hyposaline-transfer) for treating ich is not practical for treating large volumes of fish. However, a standard hyposalinity treatment can be employed successfully under many circumstances. My hypothesis for treating Amyloodinium using the transfer method is as of yet untested in scientific trials. However, Doctors Noga and Colorni believe that it should work in theory. I realize this probably isn’t practical for treating large volumes of fish either.

My cautions for using formaldehyde are the same that you will find in books such as Edward Noga’s “Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment” (page 286 +287). I didn’t say that formalin is not a useful tool. Actually, formalin is my treatment of choice for brooklynella and black ich. However, my preference is to use formalin only as a short term bath rather than a long term treatment. I also use it at a much higher dose than one or two drops per gallon. That would explain a lot about our difference in experience with formalin. It only has a moderate to weak antibacterial activity at a low dose. BTW, I don’t find it particularly effective as a cure for Crypto.

Noga warns that Formalin is volatile and irritating. It causes cancer in laboratory rats and can cause hypersensitivity and lung damage in humans. It should be tightly sealed during storage and used only in well-ventilated areas. Avoid contact with the skin. “Formalin is not usually recommended for treating commercial fish ponds because each 5mg/L of formalin added to a pond chemically removes 1mg/L of dissolved oxygen.” Formalin can be irritating to the gills and it is more toxic in soft acidic water and high temperatures. Noga suggests performing a bioassay before using formalin on an entire population. “Idiopathic deaths occur within 1 to 72 hours of treatment (Warren, 1981). Some possible signs of distress are piping, excess mucus, pale color and death with the mouth wide open. “Formalin is contraindicated if fish have been recently stressed (e.g., transported, shipped) or if skin ulcers are present.” Noga also suggests diluting the solution before disposing of it.

I have much more experience using it with marine fish than I do with freshwater. I do tend to focus on treatments that hobbyists can utilize.
http://216.168.47.67/cis-fishnet/seascope/99SS1601.htm

Terry B

 

[aquatic ian]

an interesting discussion guys , im very interested in these race type aclimatisation setups , can any one describe or photograph one for me , or at least point me in the right direction

from my experience kalk your clouding of the water is from overdosing , and the effect on the bacteria , the bacteria do become used to a level after a while and dont cloud unless again overdosed

does any one use a combined copper / formalin treatment regime ?
i have read of and used this with satisfactory results , i feel certainly its more effective than copper alone

cheers

 

[aquatic ian]

My cautions for using formaldehyde are the same that you will find in books such as Edward Noga’s “Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment” (page 286 +287). I didn’t say that formalin is not a useful tool. Actually, formalin is my treatment of choice for brooklynella and black ich. However, my preference is to use formalin only as a short term bath rather than a long term treatment. I also use it at a much higher dose than one or two drops per gallon. That would explain a lot about our difference in experience with formalin. It only has a moderate to weak antibacterial activity at a low dose. BTW, I don’t find it particularly effective as a cure for Crypto.

Noga warns that Formalin is volatile and irritating. It causes cancer in laboratory rats and can cause hypersensitivity and lung damage in humans. It should be tightly sealed during storage and used only in well-ventilated areas. Avoid contact with the skin. “Formalin is not usually recommended for treating commercial fish ponds because each 5mg/L of formalin added to a pond chemically removes 1mg/L of dissolved oxygen.” Formalin can be irritating to the gills and it is more toxic in soft acidic water and high temperatures. Noga suggests performing a bioassay before using formalin on an entire population. “Idiopathic deaths occur within 1 to 72 hours of treatment (Warren, 1981). Some possible signs of distress are piping, excess mucus, pale color and death with the mouth wide open. “Formalin is contraindicated if fish have been recently stressed (e.g., transported, shipped) or if skin ulcers are present.” Noga also suggests diluting the solution before disposing of it.

I have much more experience using it with marine fish than I do with freshwater. I do tend to focus on treatments that hobbyists can utilize.
http://216.168.47.67/cis-fishnet/seascope/99SS1601.htm

Terry B

while recognising the danger at high doses ,the levels your talking about terry are at nearly 200 times the strength we use it at (asumming 5ml per litre ) im asuming the effect on the oxygen levels at .01mg per litre, would not be significant?
cheers ian

 

[Kalkbreath]

an interesting discussion guys , im very interested in these race type aclimatisation setups , can any one describe or photograph one for me , or at least point me in the right direction

from my experience kalk your clouding of the water is from overdosing , and the effect on the bacteria , the bacteria do become used to a level after a while and dont cloud unless again overdosed

does any one use a combined copper / formalin treatment regime ?
i have read of and used this with satisfactory results , i feel certainly its more effective than copper alone

cheers

Yes I agree, But what is the substance clouding the water? If its dead bad bacteria and liquefied pathogens then thats good.

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe instead of dead benthic bacteria it is instead a bloom of free-floating bacteria.

 

[Kalkbreath]

I dont think the UVs {500watts } would permit a bloom. And why would the bloom dissipate in 24 hours? As fast as it came?

 

[Terry B]

aquatic ian
I did not say 5ml/L, I said 5mg/L. Besides that I was not using that to suggest a dose, but just to using it as a comparison for how much formalin it takes to remove 1ml/L of oxygen. If you are using 2 drops (25ppm) per gallon of formalin as a prolonged treatment then you are using the correct dose for treating every third day. It is recommended to change 50% of the water in between doses. For constant flow the dose is even lower at .15ppm for 24 hours. The dose for a 45 minute dip is 250ppm or about 1ml/gal. That means that if you are using two drops per gallon then you are at 1/10th the dose rather than 1/200th of the dose for a short bath.

One reason that fish that have just been transported or fed should not be treated with formalin is that these fish are consuming oxygen at an accelerated rate. Fish metabolism rates are double during transfer which greatly increases oxygen consumption. Fish also use more oxygen during digestion. Formalin chemically removes oxygen from water. When you consider that fish which have just been transported or fed have higher oxygen demands and the fact that formalin chemically removes oxygen from the water the problem of lower oxygen availability is compounded.
Terry B

 

[aquatic ian]

aquatic ian
I did not say 5ml/L, I said 5mg/L. Besides that I was not using that to suggest a dose, but just to using it as a comparison for how much formalin it takes to remove 1ml/L of oxygen. If you are using 2 drops (25ppm) per gallon of formalin as a prolonged treatment then you are using the correct dose for treating every third day. It is recommended to change 50% of the water in between doses. For constant flow the dose is even lower at .15ppm for 24 hours. The dose for a 45 minute dip is 250ppm or about 1ml/gal. That means that if you are using two drops per gallon then you are at 1/10th the dose rather than 1/200th of the dose for a short bath.

One reason that fish that have just been transported or fed should not be treated with formalin is that these fish are consuming oxygen at an accelerated rate. Fish metabolism rates are double during transfer which greatly increases oxygen consumption. Fish also use more oxygen during digestion. Formalin chemically removes oxygen from water. When you consider that fish which have just been transported or fed have higher oxygen demands and the fact that formalin chemically removes oxygen from the water the problem of lower oxygen availability is compounded.
Terry B

thanks for clearing that up terry
does any one have any further info on race type aclimatisation setups ?