a picture for kalk...

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, Here we go again. We already debunked your allegation on these issues last year. I have been to the Philippines on numerous occasions (including 1986) when Steve, myself, and Don McAllister visited Santiago Island near Bolinao in NW Luzon. We witnessed and photographed the coral reef destruction resulting from cyanide fishing, blast fishing, and the collection of ornamental corals. The third photo (posted by Steve above) was taken by myself. The first two were taken by Lynn Funkhouser of IMA in 1987. She is a professional underwater photographer and has dove in the Philippines for about the past 20 years.

At the MO meeting just held in Honolulu I presented a photo of a large white streak across a large flat top acropora made by squirting cyanide across the coral head. The photo is one of many made by James Cervino. Cervino went to the Philippines and Papua New Guinea to conduct his study and (like myself and Steve) was able to confirm with direct observations and by interviewing the fishermen that cyanide kills corals with one application. He then also confirmed it under controlled conditions in the laboratory. As one of the authors of the Cervino study, I strongly suggest that you stop making false allegations. Is that clear enough?

 

[PeterIMA]

PS-The pictures posted by Steve were published in articles I have written. The last image appeared in Marine Fish Monthly in 1987 and described our trip to Bolinao in 1986. The top two photos by Lynn appeared in a scientific paper I wrote published in the journal Environmental Biology of Fishes in 1988 (and in Fenner's book chapter for the image of dead fishes). So, Mr. Jeff Koutnik (that is your name I assume) if you want the papers containing the documented proof send me your address.
Peter

 

[Kalkbreath]

PS-The pictures posted by Steve were published in articles I have written. The last image appeared in Marine Fish Monthly in 1987 and described our trip to Bolinao in 1986. The top two photos by Lynn appeared in a scientific paper I wrote published in the journal Environmental Biology of Fishes in 1988 (and in Fenner's book chapter for the image of dead fishes). So, Mr. Jeff Koutnik (that is your name I assume) if you want the papers containing the documented proof send me your address.
Peter

Only problem is that you have never been able to demonstrate that the cyanide damage in any of your photos are from our hobby collectors.You really think its possible to create a long white streak while fishing for four ounce aquarium fish? The level of concentration required to create a giant white streak of death is far and above any concentration which can be used to collect tiny reef fish .{Did you think this conference was about food fishing?} Am I correct in thinking that you dont blame the dynamite blast fishing on the hobby? I can never tell with you reeformers? Why is it you think its possible for our collectors to harm the corals and still collect the fish alive? You have never been able to demonstrate or duplicate this in a controlled environment? What make you think it happens out on the reefs. Secondly there are not enough fish collected each year by our industry to contribute to very much of the 20,000 plus square kilometers of cyanide damage! How many fish do you think are collected each year with cyanide for our hobby? Not only do you have zero proof that its even possible to harm corals with the low levels of cyanide our collectors use , but you cant provide any math as to how our limited fishing pressure could inflict such a wide swath of damage.

 

[clarionreef]

Peter,
At Nuremburgh there were Nazis unrepentant to the end who denied any Jews were ever gassed.
In the closing argument the allied forces attorney recounted all the apologism, snowjobs and whitewashes they heard and said...."If that is true...then tell me they still live".
He doesn't work for anyone and carries no weight. This is his recreation and his 15 minutes of fame a day.
Imagine him trying out this drivel on Ruwi or Ferdie in the field.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Its odd that you can never actually confront the issue..........Steve, how many cyanide fish are collected for our hobby in PI each year? And how many cyanide squirts does it take to collect that amount of pet fish? You dont dare answer because you know what it would translate into........ :wink: PS I dont work for anyone , thus I dont have to lie ............? I guess you work for someone........

 

[Kalkbreath]

Peter,
At Nuremburgh there were Nazis unrepentant to the end who denied any Jews were ever gassed.
In the closing argument the allied forces attorney recounted all the apologism, snowjobs and whitewashes they heard and said...."If that is true...then tell me they still live".
He doesn't work for anyone and carries no weight. This is his recreation and his 15 minutes of fame a day.
Imagine him trying out this drivel on Ruwi or Ferdie in the field.
Steve

....... If I remember correctly, during that same war........tens of thousands adults and children [Americans] were "interned" on American soil ......simply because these people MIGHT be guilty of some sort of war crime.{never any proof}Also If I remember correctly .........NOT ONE on the ten thousand persons was found to be guilty of anything other then resembling the enemy.......? NOW THATS AN ANALOGY!?

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, Last year I explained in a lot of detail that one cyanide tablet weighs 20 grams. So, a 20 gram tablet of sodium cyanide was equivalent to 20,000 milligrams per liter (ppm). 52% by weight is cyanide (CN) so one tablet of NaCN is equivalent to 11,000 ppm. Even if the tablet dissolves slowly, I conservatively estimated the concentration being sprayed on the reefs exceeds 1500 ppm. Fish are immobilized by concentrations as low as 5 ppm in less than 2 minutes (above that concentration they are killed if the exposure exceeds 2 minutes). I have already explained the MO collectors use 1-2 tablets and the food fishers use 5 tablets on average. Even if the MO collectors sometimes break the tablets into smaller pieces the concentrations used far exceed what is lethal to both the fish and the corals.

You are completely wrong to state that the collectors use concentrations of cyanide that are not harmful to the coral reefs. They can not control the concentration of cyanide coming from the squirt bottle, just where they direct the plume (away from the corals provided the fish flee from the reef). Otherwise, the collectors pull dead/dying fish out of coral heads they break apart with crowbars.

There is no way you or anyone else can defend the use of cyanide for collecting/cyanide fishing. It is destroying coral reefs and contributes to the high delayed mortality in the trade (along with other factors like stress and ammonia).

Cyanide was used to exterminate 6 million Jewish people by Nazi Germany. Do you deny that occurred as well?

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

according to kalk, since cyanide is already found in seawater, it can't be toxic to marine life, remember? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[PeterIMA]

PS-Yes, based on what I stated it is very easy for a MO collector to kill corals and create white patches across bigger coral heads caused by the cyanide plume. The hobby is guilty of destroying coral reefs. Kalk should be tried for contibuting to coral reef genocide by trading in cyanide caught marine aquarium fish.

 

[mkirda]

Only problem is that you have never been able to demonstrate that the cyanide damage in any of your photos are from our hobby collectors.

Jesus CHRIST, Kalk. What the heck is your Problem?

A scientist goes diving with CYANIDE COLLECTORS and photographs a coral head while getting hit with cyanide. He returns the next day and photographs the nice white coral head. Same coral 24 hours later, bleached white, white, white. What do you think it is from? Suntan lotion?

You are so blind that you cannot see the proof put in front of you.
It is ridiculous.

 

[Anonymous]

hehe

i'd offer to show kalk some videos mike king has here-but that would be a waste of a cheap cd-r disk

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk, Last year I explained in a lot of detail that one cyanide tablet weighs 20 grams. So, a 20 gram tablet of sodium cyanide was equivalent to 20,000 milligrams per liter (ppm). 52% by weight is cyanide (CN) so one tablet of NaCN is equivalent to 11,000 ppm. Even if the tablet dissolves slowly, I conservatively estimated the concentration being sprayed on the reefs exceeds 1500 ppm. Fish are immobilized by concentrations as low as 5 ppm in less than 2 minutes (above that concentration they are killed if the exposure exceeds 2 minutes). I have already explained the MO collectors use 1-2 tablets and the food fishers use 5 tablets on average. Even if the MO collectors sometimes break the tablets into smaller pieces the concentrations used far exceed what is lethal to both the fish and the corals.

You really think that when a MO collector chases a school of tangs into a coral head and squirts into the coral that not only does the coral die every time ....BUT SO DO THE FISH THE COLLECTOR IS COLLECTING! How the hell did you find fish alive for your tests in 1996 through2001? {PS wheres the data from 2001?}I heard cyanide detection was back down to only 8% in 2001!} Most of the fish species our collectors are collecting with cyanide are few and far in between.We colelct only a very narrow range of species to begin with You really think they kill off most of their targeted fish each time they squirt? Thats silly! it usually takes hours to find a blueface or Blue tangs .....these are the "MONEY fish" The fish the collector knows he can sell each and every one he collects ALIVE. Do you even realize that most of the self poisonings with cyanide happens when the fishermen brake apart the tablets with their hands to inable a lower then one tablet concentration in the squirt bottle?

You are completely wrong to state that the collectors use concentrations of cyanide that are not harmful to the coral reefs. They can not control the concentration of cyanide coming from the squirt bottle, just where they direct the plume (away from the corals provided the fish flee from the reef). Otherwise, the collectors pull dead/dying fish out of coral heads they break apart with crowbars.

When was the last time you were in the water watching PI collectors? 1982?........... Really When?...............The collectors in PI have had twenty plus years to perfect their craft. Many of them even target only certain species , fish that they have personally learned how to collect {alive}These guys are as talented as a Braves baseball pitcher And more talanted then a Braves hitter They not only change the intensity of the squirt to match the fish .....large angel can take more then a small angel, but they also are smart enough to understand that an underdose {fish not stunned enough} can be squirted again ......an over dosed fish is a lost cause .........You really must think these guys are stupid.

There is no way you or anyone else can defend the use of cyanide for collecting/cyanide fishing. It is destroying coral reefs and contributes to the high delayed mortality in the trade (along with other factors like stress and ammonia).

Cyanide was used to exterminate 6 million Jewish people by Nazi Germany. Do you deny that occurred as well?

I am not saying that cyanide fishing is a good thing. The fish {product is terrible for everyone involved, the collector{health} the exporter[reputation] the retailer[profit] and the hobbyist[unhappy} But that does not mean it alright to make false statements about what its use in our industry causes out on the reefs. You know its not our guys doing the damage You testified to it to Congress twenty years ago.

Peter[/quote]

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, As far as I know you have never interviewed or even met any collectors in the Philippines who have used cyanide. So your opinions are worthless. I have interviewed former cyanide collectors who were trained to use barrier nets by Steve Robinson. Steve lived with the collectors and observed them using cyanide. I don't see Steve stating that I am wrong about the way the collectors use cyanide to capture MO fish.

PS-The last time I got in the water with Filipino collectors was in 1999 when I accompanied Ferdinand Cruz. We were on the IMA vessel the Napoleon with collectors from the Badgoan Fisherman's Association being trained by the IMA.

I don't doubt that the collectors can control to some degree the amount of cyanide squirted on the fish. Otherwise, as you stated all the fish would die. All I stated was that they must direct the cyanide plume to the side rather than straight onto the fish hiding in the coral heads. Let's hear it directly from the collectors (provided any have a computer and read this thread).

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Peter, go back over the thread and check the posters name of the "third photo". I thought scientists were detail oriented.

 

[mkirda]

Gee, it's odd that with so little time to devote to reform, you wouldn't be interested in if what you have believed all the years is true! Why don't we do research to see if our hobby is really having an effect. Otherwise any effort on our end is wasted.
The reformers have already explained how its possible for my cyanide collectors to have such a wide spread effect, given the number of fish we collect in the PI. Yet you all seem uneffected? Given all the studies, all the photos, and the statistics to back them up? It does not take a scientist to realize that the fish which are collected for our trade are collected alive. It's a live fish trade. Peter, whats the lowest concentration of cyanide that will stun a two inch blue tang or four inch copperband....? And second, do you Know of any tests on corals at that concentration? {the lowest level that can be used to collect fish}Next, If there are so few fish in PI like you all have been tricked into believing by me (ha!)......then why would collectors risk killing most of the fish in a reef that they are working by over cyaniding the target fish ? They don't......at least not more then once. Then it seems to reason that any tests on cyanide and its effects on fish would have included corals.....but they didn't. (Could be I don't understand Scientific method though...............) Neither did the results on studies of the effects cyanide has on corals include fish? You all dont find that odd? (Or is it just me.......................) You really think I am the first person to come up with the idea that corals and fish should both be included in the tests? Hell thats how it is in the oceans? I am sure tests have been done......but it's odd that the results have never been made public. I'm a cyanide conspiracy theorist and you should be one as well......

Personally, I like this version better. :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Alright,
What did you do with Kalk?
That ain't him as there were no typos, gross mis-spellings, flagrant flights of fantasy and leaps of faith marinated in ridiculous assumptions with 'what me worry' ...'wasn't us' conclusion.
Release him to entertain us with more chapters of the hit series "marine ecology for idiots' .
Release him now or I'll call Rover over.
Steve

 

[hdtran]

Mike Kirda wins the first annual elision award (look it up!), or the New York Times award for creative quoting!

Congratulations!

Your prize consists of a bottle of extra strength Naproxen (this level of effort goes beyond aspirin or Ibuprofen!)

Every single letter used in that quote came from one of Kalk's postings!

 

[PeterIMA]

Does this mean that Mike Kirda has gone over to the dark side? He could be a formidable force against the reformists. Reformists beware of this changling. Now there can only be REEFORM. The small "r" reformists have lost Mike Kirda.

Tune in tomorrow for another chapter of Cyanide and Coral Reefs. Only shown here on Reefs.org

 

[Kalkbreath]

How many fish are collected with cyanide each year in PI? "Its like Clinton and his grand jury deposition.......He know He cant answer the question so he spend the time debating the definition of the words in the question..........like what is the meaning of "IS".....?

 

[mkirda]

How many fish are collected with cyanide each year in PI? "Its like Clinton and his grand jury deposition.......He know He cant answer the question so he spend the time debating the definition of the words in the question..........like what is the meaning of "IS".....?

Kalk,

Why ask such a simple question? Even you should know the answer- It is *AT LEAST* 25% of those exported, based on the timeframe referenced in the published numbers. See Rubec's prior posts for the reference. The numbers are likely closer to 50% for reasons I have already covered ad nauseum over the past year. See the search button for those.

Clintonian arguments are irrelevant here. Not a single definition debate anywhere.