Role of the Internet in the Marine Ornamentals trade.

[dizzy]

Jeff,
Despite the spats Mary and I seem to have, I personally wish her well. Mary has a very loyal following so she must be doing something right. I have ordered from Mary in the past, but not on a regular basis. We get our freshwater shipments on Monday and the airport is too far away to make multiple trips during the week. Mary does not pack and ship Sundays, so it didn't work out. I think I've also made the point about not liking to legitamize the practice of wholesalers etailing. :wink:

We do whatever it takes to make an honest living around here. I drill tanks for one thing. I've got a couple of diamond bits and a suction cup drill press for drilling glass. We also raise clownfish. I just got finished putting 6 blue LED moonlights into a lighting fixture for a customer. I know how to cut and glue acrylic and I've made tanks up to 400-gallon from epoxy sealed plywood and glass. We also just had a huge spawn from one of our koi in the outside pond this week. You don't survive 20-years and a big box invasion without learning to adapt. 8)

The thing is that some of these wholesalers remind me of a cheating wife. At first they try to lie and cover it up, but if your caught your caught. The question is do you get a divorce and find a new one, or do you give them a chance to change? Do we act like Hillary Clinton or Tina Turner. Both have done fine. I don't think the wholesalers will change unless we pressure a few of them to do so. Some will decide to cater to the garage and doctor type etailers which is fine. Etail will not go away. I think that is the one thing we all agree on. If bad stores get run out it isn't a big loss either. The New AMDA wants to help protect the good retailers that care about a sustainable future and that are willing to change and adapt to the times. Part of that change will be learning to work together for the common good.
Mitch

 

[nanocat]

Sometimes I think LFS have it all wrong. They sell the livestock at market rates, even though they have the advantage since most of us want to SEE our fish, and are willing to pay more, especially with online shipping costs for livestock. I think LFS should raise the prices on fish.

Instead, it seems that since they don't make much margin on fish, they all try to markup the hardgoods as much as possible to cover. This really IS counterproductive from the customer's point of view. I don't give a toot where I buy my sea salt from. Online or local, it's about price. So I call around and compare to online+shipping.

I get some good prices, and then I call my favorite LFS. He's $10 higher on a 50g bag than a LFS just 1/4 mile from him that I've never visited. I tell him "joe blow sells it for X dollars". All he has to say is "oh really". As a result, this afternoon I will be driving to the other LFS to buy about 10 bags. If my favorite guy had been smart, he'd have done ANYTHING to keep me out of a new LFS. What if I like it? What if I buy other things while I'm there? What if I post on the net what a terrific new place I find (or if it's a dump, I'll talk about that too).

LFS need to wise up and stop fighting the net. Sell the hardgoods as low as you can without a loss. Sell the corals and fish a little higher. You guys are right...most of us prefer to buy that local anyway. You can get by with a higher markup IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

Problem on dry goods is volume. Unless you have the ability to store and purchase mass amounts of dry goods, you have to buy from a distributer. Most big etailers are they're own distributers, so they get it for far less then the LFS who buys from a distributer. Some LFS do buy in volume and their pricing usually shows it. Most companies have a min. that an average LFS simply can't meet or simply can't store.

 

[middletonmark]

While your comments on hardware may be accurate, that is not true for livestock.

Even at the poorest LFS you have an opportunity to closely inspect the fish and coral and determine its origin and even possibly negotiate its price.

Online retailers do not give you that opportunity. You are buying sight unseen and if the price is too good to be true it is probably one of those cyanide caught fish from the Philippines or Indonesia that are imported in by the tonnes and sold online to unsuspecting hobbyists.
As MaryM has pointed out on several occasions, many, even some of the 'best' online vendors, are guilty of false advertising from claims that they are net caught, cyanide free or from the IndoPacific. (readPI)

The LFS remains the only rational choice for quality fish and coral. You just have to find the store that treats you like a customer.

When it comes to livestock, trust your eyes.

It's funny, as if I follow your rules ... there is no LFS for me. So I can either: buy at crummy LFS or buy online or drive 3 hours to find a good LFS.
I've been burned too much to go with the sketchy ethics small LFS [sells rock online/ebay for 1/2 price of in store, sells dry goods the same way ... but any walk-in gets full LFS price]. Or go to the high-schooler-run big-box Dead Fish Store. Either way I'm supporting the Gonis and Elegance and other corals that they probably shouldn't be stocking IMO.

Or, I can deal with a reputable online place I have a good relationship with. Where I can buy ORA and other captive fish, where I'm buying frags they made. Where word of mouth of my local reefers refer me ... where their business is built on healthy livestock, good deals, and customer service. Ain't no Doctors here ... plenty of other people who AMDA might not want but from my experience are walking the right path.

LFS need to wise up and stop fighting the net. Sell the hardgoods as low as you can without a loss. Sell the corals and fish a little higher. You guys are right...most of us prefer to buy that local anyway. You can get by with a higher markup IMO.

The problem is when I'm told to support my LFS with their poor husbandry or constant ordering of Naso tangs and mostly LPS corals.

And some of these same LFS aren't telling me ... but are selling via Ebay or elsewhere online stuff that I pay far more for when I walk in. Hmmm ... who is being served?

---

Yeah, there are the Doctors, and all these `ultra cheapo' online people ... but to lump them with the fair # of aquaculturing etailers [not the ones who are deceiving and actually transship/etc] - IMO is the wrong thing.

It's like lumping Seacrop among your low-ball transhippers. Sure, if you want you can ... but that doesn't mean it's an accurate assessment.

I know myself, until two days ago the only place to get ORA clowns/dottybacks or frags .... was online. IMO, there's no choice where my clowns will come from, where I'll get my Acropora ... when my 5 LFS here don't carry it ... I'm going online. I'd rather the LFS stock this stuff ... but I'm not buying wild clowns if that's all they stock.

I'll be loyal as crap to those that do treat me well, whose ethics I can respect. 4 or 5 times a year I drive 5-6 hours round trip to buy frags from these folks, pick up captive critters. Local, no way ... but even distant, I'll take the captive-focused merchant over `local' any day.

I'm headed tonight to the place that just started carrying ORA stuff. Walking away with a frag or a pair of clowns ... not that I really have a strong desire or the cash - but that it's such a positive step I'll be sure the owner is aware I'm buying because it's captive. No longer can I go online for that stuff ... I'm eager to support the guy doing the right thing ... don't misconstrue me as being cheap [though I am frugal].

Thus I find the discussions on this forum sometimes amusing. Being told to support LFS as they're more ethical, or buy healthier fish .... evidently you have different LFS than I do.

Just my opinion, one of many

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, there are the Doctors, and all these `ultra cheapo' online people ... but to lump them with the fair # of aquaculturing etailers [not the ones who are deceiving and actually transship/etc] - IMO is the wrong thing.

Ditto

IMO the B&M's need to focuse on why they loose their customers onece they become web savy. As soon as people hit the net, they see theres more to life the wild LPS. I've driven 300 miles to buy frags, and i'd do it again if the frag is right (not the price, the frag, after all, the money won't be on display in my tank).

 

[dizzy]

I get some good prices, and then I call my favorite LFS. He's $10 higher on a 50g bag than a LFS just 1/4 mile from him that I've never visited. I tell him "joe blow sells it for X dollars". All he has to say is "oh really". As a result, this afternoon I will be driving to the other LFS to buy about 10 bags. If my favorite guy had been smart, he'd have done ANYTHING to keep me out of a new LFS.

Look nano there is also a fairness issue here. Do you yo-yo your prices up and down because a customer threatens to buy online? If you're dealer was going to give you a better price then he should go and change the price on all his salt, just to make sure he wasn't screwing over a good regular customer who doesn't ask for better pricing. He might have gotten your sale and ended up losing money overall.

LFS need to wise up and stop fighting the net. Sell the hardgoods as low as you can without a loss. Sell the corals and fish a little higher. You guys are right...most of us prefer to buy that local anyway. You can get by with a higher markup IMO.

Stop fighting the net? :? We have not yet begun to fight. :wink: This is not about trying to insure that people get ripped off. Compete? Yeah we do that too, between stores if nothing else. Ever hear of Petco? Sometimes I think we have more sku/s that are loss leaders than full margin stuff. Man how do you cover your overhead without markup? Y'all should walk a mile in our shoes before you try to tell us how to make a living in this industry. I don't really see too many dealers jumping in and telling us what a bonanza etail has been for their business, although I'm sure a few have managed to capitalize on something that will not work for all. Many of us work hard to give our customers good value for their money. I do think stores need to be in touch with the times. Selling cheap salt to help your customers makes sense, but customers need to buy other items from you as well. Making good profit on livestock is nearly impossible these days. Some of the net profit has got to come from drygoods.
Mitch

PS
Read the red part.

 

[Anonymous]

No one is saying that you should support an unthethical crap hole LFS before you should order on line. One of the biggest advantages to the net is it has allowed the hobby to grow faster than the storefronts have. You can set up an etail site in a weekend, it takes years to develop a good store. If you live in an area without a good store, by all means, order from the net. What we are saying, is just because you are buying on the net doesn't mean you aren't buying from a craphole. One thing the net will do is force all of the bad stores out of business faster, which I see as a good thing. What AMDA is trying to do is figure out a way to keep from throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[middletonmark]

I hear you there.

Given these are live animals, I doubt any here are looking for anything more than the healthiest, most conscientiously obtained livestock.
Whether in town, online ... ethics in all this is a factor ... my hobby does impact the reef, the only thing I can decide is how much and in what ways [to a small degree, though deceipt up the supply chain sure makes it tough].

Sadly, cheapness beckons ... and while I think the `tide' of reefers is starting to turn onto the reality of the hobby and what's really `going on' ... this isn't the easiest hobby to say no in. And for a lot of people who go in + out of the hobby in short order, the animals they kill in the process they stay blissfully unaware of the full effects their purchases supported.

As you said it takes years to develop a good store true true. There's obviously a few `above and beyond the call of duty' LFS people here, people in all aspects of this trade ... I see the point that the internet can hide a lot of BS and bad practices - yet as you said, I'd like to keep the baby, while throwing out every drop of that bathwater [it's worse than skimmate ]

Some of that baby IMO is on the internet. Some of that baby is probably in various links of this whole hobby ... the key IMO is getting all facets together [or as best can] to get issues addressed with both the crummy B&M + e-tail ... and up the chain.

 

[nanocat]

I think you missed my point Dizzy, I wasn't comparing ONLINE prices, I was comparing LFS to LFS and they are within 1/4 mile of each other.

I walked out with $200 worth of Oceanic salt (picked some up for fellow reefers who knew I was going) and a $75 Clear for Life cube I wasn't even planning on buying.

The guy was personable, the store was small but clean, and more importantly he made it abundantly clear he will PRICE MATCH. Now whose LFS do you think I'll be adding to my weekly rounds? Not only that, but of course I promptly walked in the door and told another 500 club members about his store, plus anyone else who read my post.

I doubt he made a whole lot on the salt, but look at the publicity he got simply by giving a good price. Now that's what I call a smart LFS.

My friend at the other LFS? Well I'll still go there, but if this guy will give me a better price, then I'll buy from him. Wouldn't anyone?

 

[dizzy]

Look nano believe me I can understand people wanting to save money. I imagine we all do to some degree, it's human nature. Say a store pays $10 for a bag of IO salt. A new store with deep pockets decides to run it at $9.00 to take business from the old store who has it at the extremely fair price of $14.99. Should the old established store take the bait and let the price wars begin? Or should he just look around and when no one is listening and agree to lower the price to the one individual who pointed out the other stores sale? Or should he stick to his guns and treat all his customers equally? It is a serious dilemma. People try to test your ethics on a dasily basis. Are we running a flea market or a business? I applaud the store owner for his decision and I hope you understand. I prolly wouldn't critize him either way. It is his store and he can run it the way he wants too. You can worry yourself silly about what the Petco types are doing down the road. Sure there are times when you it makes sense to go with them, but you can't negociate every sale. It would cause quite a traffic jam at the register. :wink:

 

[MaryHM]

All this cheap price, Petco banter made me think of something humorous....

I know this guy here in LA that used to own a retail store (he only does service now- in fact he's an AMDA member). Petco opened up right across the street from him. One day a customer came in holding a purple tang in a bag and said "Look what I just bought at Petco for only $15!!". Instead of being outraged at the price gouging, he immediately closed the store, walked across the street, and bought all of the funny looking purple "Yellow Tangs" for $15 each and promptly sold them all for $80 each.

 

[dizzy]

And now the retail store is gone, so what is the lesson here? :?

 

[MaryHM]

The lesson is that that guy is a serial bankruptcy filer and had pet stores go out of business long before Petco ever came to town.

 

[MaryHM]

And now there's another pet store in that same location (or maybe it's just a few doors down from the old shop, can't remember).

 

[dizzy]

:? :? I'm not sure why you used that example following my posts. Are you suggesting we follow this guy's example? :? I'll personally never darken the door of our Petco. To embarassing seeing customers there.
Mitch

 

[MaryHM]

Because I thought it was funny. And all of this talk about cheap prices and Petco made me think of it. Geesh Mitch, every post doesn't have to have some kind of hidden agenda or point. I'll ship you out some chill pills on Sunday so you can pick them up on Monday.