Role of the Internet in the Marine Ornamentals trade.

[dizzy]

I'll be footing my own bill to get to Hawaii for the MO '04 conference - no small chunk of change.

mes,

Your monetary sacrifice has not gone unnoticed. Also, the outlay of time and effort that you and the RDO moderators expend on this bulletin board hasn't gone unnoticed. My sincerest thanks go out to you and the moderators for it all.

Sincerely,
Lee

James,
You are quite the hero for being willing to put yourself through such hell. How many of us mere mortals would be willing to risk a trip to remote tropical island in winter? For the record I'm paying my own way over too. Instead of feeling sorry for myself I think I'll just look at it as a vacation of sorts.
Mitch

 

[clarionreef]

And Mitch,
Your sacrifice is also noted.

Hawaii can be hell at this time of the year with temperatures approaching 87 degrees by noon!
Most of the hotels are 3-5 blocks away from the convention hotel and you'll have to walk outside in the sunshine.
Somtimes in the hotels below 3 stars, room service is a bit late
and beware of the 5 for $10. Tee shirts! They're kinda cheaply made.

I applaud the courage and the commitment to the cause required to make this trek to a conference of people trying to cash in on the imagined riches of the trade.
Since so many of them are public employees, institutional employees and there on the funds of the larger enterprises and not brick and mortar dealers, they have less concept of the difference between gross and net
revenue.
I wish that you were a presenter to help them understand this basic fact.
Steve

 

[jamesw]

Hi Guys,

I am definitely looking at it as a vacation too. I also intend to visit friends and do some diving while in Hawaii.

Just so everyone knows - even the speakers are required to register and PAY to attend the MO '04 conference.

I'll try to post some "live" photos from the conference and if y'all are lucky, some underwater photos from the submerged lava tube behind Dana Riddle's house...

Cheers
James

 

[Anonymous]

Don't mean to drive traffic away from RDO, but you folks seem like a pretty vocal bunch... - I was wondering if some of you could lend me your opinion on my big project...

I'm in the process of making a database of vendors both online and off and was wondering what your stance would be on identifying customers who would be rating their transactions with your business.

Please, let me know here and if you don't mind, take a swipe at the poll I setup too please..

Thanks all! (And you got my jealousy James!)
Norm

http://www.reefsellers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=14

edit: HA! - Well, I'll have a hard time drawing traffic off of RDO when my web-host has worse response time than RC! :wink:

 

[MaryHM]

Link isn't working for me. I don't mind a transaction rating in the least. As long as there is a mechanism for response by the vendor. Last thing you need is for your competition to go hit a bunch of buttons and give you tons of bad ratings.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, my current hosting provider isn't putting stars in my eyes by any stretch. (And moving is a pain.. - Oh well, have to suck it up I guess (again.))

I'd like to setup some sort of automated verification system, like a registration code sort of thing, but that would mean having to setup something with every vendor too and I don't plan on having only etailers in on this. So that means that's out of the question.

And yeah, I know exactly what you mean by people slamming each other, can't have that at all. eBay's rating system seems a little too basic, but the overall mechanism doesn't seem too bad.. They seem to allows vendors to respond to negative feedback which is definitely good.

Oh well, looks like the site is back up for the moment.. - It's brand spankin new so don't expect to see much (if its even alive still..) :?

 

[MaryHM]

K- I saw it. The thought of registering at yet another board right now puts me on edge emotionally though, so I'll answer here.

I think the raters should use their real names. This is the only way the vendor can recognize who is rating them and can decipher who is an actual customer vs. a stooge.

 

[Anonymous]

Quite alright, I appreciate your input however I can get it.. :wink:

By the way, I changed the rights in the database recommendations forum, you won't need to register unless you want to post in other areas.. - Still need to register in order to vote though, it requires that for much the same reason... :lol:

 

[suzstephens]

Then you can have the fax sent to your PC where you can read them and only print any pages you might want.
Mitch

I sure wish the wholesalers would realize that some of us use Macs, not PCs. Every week I get emailed .doc attachments that I can't read on my Mac unless I want to buy Word for Mac, which I don't need or want. It would be SO easy for the wholesalers to send out Acrobat .pdf files that anyone can read!

My other beef about the lists is vague names and descriptions of marine life. Names like "Fuzzy leather" leave me clueless.

 

[suzstephens]

No doubt about it, etail is here to stay in the hobby, and without a doubt it will change things. But not all change is bad.

I've been reading this thread with interest, because I have 25+ years experience in graphic design, a profession which has been severely rocked by the change to computer-based design and by the growing popularity and accessibility of the World Wide Web. Ours is no longer a trade that requires a college degree and years of experience to master, as everyone seems to have a 9-yr.-old nephew who calls himself a "Web desiger." What we designers perceive as quality has fallen by the wayside, yet our [former] clients either aren't aware of this decline or don't care about it. Worse, a formerly lucrative profession is one in which it is now extremely difficult to make ends meet.

There are many parallels between the changes in my profession and those in the marine aquarium retail business. The most important one, I believe, is that this change will happen and there's nothing you can do to stop it. The only productive way to deal with this change is to figure out how to adapt your business to it.

It's naive to think that my local LFS's offer such good advice and customer service that I'd be willing to pay them $12 for a jar of Chemi-Pure that I can get from DrsFS for $4.59. At one nearby LFS, the guy rarely looks up from the basketball game on tv when I came in and gee, I hate to bother him to ask about an interesting fish. The only really good LFS in my area is on the other side of town, nearly an hour's drive away in normally heavy traffic.

At another nearby LFS, helpful advice is usually only available when I'm willing to wait in line behind several customers. I asked that store's owner to order and install a custom system for me several months ago and every step of the process has been a disaster, from leaking sumps to shorted out pumps, parts that he forgot to order, skimmers that don't work, etc. After paying the store hundreds of dollars extra in hopes of benefitting from their professional expertise, I'm left with a huge, expensive, unfinished do-it-yourself project. Apparently his idea of "installing" the system was to glue the standpipe in and deliver the tank and cabinet to my house. When components the LFS sold me wouldn't work and he wouldn't refund the cost or come to my place to try to get them to work, I didn't buy replacements from them. Instead, I went to Froogle.com to get the best prices available.

With the level of customer service that I get from my nearby LFS's, I feel confident that, like digital graphic design, e-tail is here to stay no matter how much any of you complain about it or criticize it. The simple fact is that for many of us, buying livestock and drygoods online is a much better alternative. The difference in price and service between my local LFSs and DrsFosterSmith.com or LiveAquaria.com is like night and day. The "good doctors" are doing a fabulous job --so good that I'm modelling my own new e-tail business after them.

Graphic designers have had to adapt to constant computer-driven changes in our profession. I suspect that most LFS's are going to have to adapt to these changes too, because e-tailers are not going away any time soon.

 

[Anonymous]

I sure wish the wholesalers would realize that some of us use Macs, not PCs. Every week I get emailed .doc attachments that I can't read on my Mac unless I want to buy Word for Mac, which I don't need or want.

That gripe isn't just for Mac owners either! PC's don't automatically run Microshaft software and not all PC owners want to... :wink:

.pdf works for me.. - I can grab that in whatever flavor of linux I want to..

 

[MaryHM]

<insert shameless plug>

That's why Marine Specialties International offers a handy-dandy shopping cart that works with everyone's computer!!!! And we're opening up an auction site for the extra-super-duper-premium cherry pieces!!! http://www.reefsource.com YEAH BABY!!!

 

[Kalkbreath]

No doubt about it, etail is here to stay in the hobby, and without a doubt it will change things. But not all change is bad.

I've been reading this thread with interest, because I have 25+ years experience in graphic design, a profession which has been severely rocked by the change to computer-based design and by the growing popularity and accessibility of the World Wide Web. Ours is no longer a trade that requires a college degree and years of experience to master, as everyone seems to have a 9-yr.-old nephew who calls himself a "Web desiger." What we designers perceive as quality has fallen by the wayside, yet our [former] clients either aren't aware of this decline or don't care about it. Worse, a formerly lucrative profession is one in which it is now extremely difficult to make ends meet.

There are many parallels between the changes in my profession and those in the marine aquarium retail business. The most important one, I believe, is that this change will happen and there's nothing you can do to stop it. The only productive way to deal with this change is to figure out how to adapt your business to it.

It's naive to think that my local LFS's offer such good advice and customer service that I'd be willing to pay them $12 for a jar of Chemi-Pure that I can get from DrsFS for $4.59. At one nearby LFS, the guy rarely looks up from the basketball game on tv when I came in and gee, I hate to bother him to ask about an interesting fish. The only really good LFS in my area is on the other side of town, nearly an hour's drive away in normally heavy traffic.

At another nearby LFS, helpful advice is usually only available when I'm willing to wait in line behind several customers. I asked that store's owner to order and install a custom system for me several months ago and every step of the process has been a disaster, from leaking sumps to shorted out pumps, parts that he forgot to order, skimmers that don't work, etc. After paying the store hundreds of dollars extra in hopes of benefitting from their professional expertise, I'm left with a huge, expensive, unfinished do-it-yourself project. Apparently his idea of "installing" the system was to glue the standpipe in and deliver the tank and cabinet to my house. When components the LFS sold me wouldn't work and he wouldn't refund the cost or come to my place to try to get them to work, I didn't buy replacements from them. Instead, I went to Froogle.com to get the best prices available.

With the level of customer service that I get from my nearby LFS's, I feel confident that, like digital graphic design, e-tail is here to stay no matter how much any of you complain about it or criticize it. The simple fact is that for many of us, buying livestock and drygoods online is a much better alternative. The difference in price and service between my local LFSs and DrsFosterSmith.com or LiveAquaria.com is like night and day. The "good doctors" are doing a fabulous job --so good that I'm modelling my own new e-tail business after them.

Graphic designers have had to adapt to constant computer-driven changes in our profession. I suspect that most LFS's are going to have to adapt to these changes too, because e-tailers are not going away any time soon.

I agree......Thanks for your input. :wink:

 

[Fish World1]

There are many parallels between the changes in my profession and those in the marine aquarium retail business. The most important one, I believe, is that this change will happen and there's nothing you can do to stop it. The only productive way to deal with this change is to figure out how to adapt your business to it.

I have to agree. In this business or any other you have to change or become obselete.

 

[dizzy]

At another nearby LFS, helpful advice is usually only available when I'm willing to wait in line behind several customers. I asked that store's owner to order and install a custom system for me several months ago and every step of the process has been a disaster, from leaking sumps to shorted out pumps, parts that he forgot to order, skimmers that don't work, etc. After paying the store hundreds of dollars extra in hopes of benefitting from their professional expertise, I'm left with a huge, expensive, unfinished do-it-yourself project. Apparently his idea of "installing" the system was to glue the standpipe in and deliver the tank and cabinet to my house. When components the LFS sold me wouldn't work and he wouldn't refund the cost or come to my place to try to get them to work, I didn't buy replacements from them. Instead, I went to Froogle.com to get the best prices available.
With the level of customer service that I get from my nearby LFS's, I feel confident that, like digital graphic design, e-tail is here to stay no matter how much any of you complain about it or criticize it. The simple fact is that for many of us, buying livestock and drygoods online is a much better alternative. The difference in price and service between my local LFSs and DrsFosterSmith.com or LiveAquaria.com is like night and day. The "good doctors" are doing a fabulous job --so good that I'm modelling my own new e-tail business after them.

This post is interesting for several reasons. It correctly points out that etail is having an effect on many industries. The poster didn't even get into the issue of all the large companies that are shipping the computer programing jobs over to India and other countries where the labor is cheaper. Manufacturing to Mexico, China, and Taiwan. High tech to India. Screw your jobs and your childrens jobs people, by God we have the right to buy stuff as cheaply as possible no matter what the consequences. There is something disturbing in this total lack of concern about what our greed is doing to our way of life. Wal Mart is trying to go into Vermont and completely change the character of local commerce. Many of the interesting little shops there will fall victim to our right to everyday low prices.

Suz I doubt it was the good doctors and their great service that got you into this hobby. :roll: If you guys are successful in defaming and running out the lfs where will the new crop of hobbyists come from. I see the good doctor ads on some of the local cable channels and I seriously doubt they will do much to make people want to join this hobby. So you and kalk want to be like the doctors huh? Good luck and be careful what you wish for.

Now suz I don't want you to think I'm picking on you I'm not. It's all put out there in a "if the shoe fits fashion." We do have to adapt to survive in business. We also have to realize we cannot all be the good doctors or the LA cherry pickers. We have come up with a plan to level the playing field for some of the rest of us. We hope some of the tax advantages Burton mentioned are taken away from e-commerce. We may actually be able to develop a strategy that will show other industries there are ways to fight back. The True Value concept has worked for some small hardwares so there is reason to be optimistc. Read what Wayne says in the AMDA/etail thread. It honestly makes a lot of sense. So no offense was meant and I hope none will be taken.
Mitch

PS
Note To self: Never miss an opportunity to take a shot a kalk.

 

[Fish World1]

Now suz I don't want you to think I'm picking on you I'm not. It's all put out there in a "if the shoe fits fashion." We do have to adapt to survive in business. We also have to realize we cannot all be the good doctors or the LA cherry pickers. We have come up with a plan to level the playing field for some of the rest of us. We hope some of the tax advantages Burton mentioned are taken away from e-commerce. We may actually be able to develop a strategy that will show other industries there are ways to fight back. The True Value concept has worked for some small hardwares so there is reason to be optimistc. Read what Wayne says in the AMDA/etail thread. It honestly makes a lot of sense. So no offense was meant and I hope none will be taken.
Mitch

PS
Note To self: Never miss an opportunity to take a shot a kalk.

Mitch,

Great post. We can't all e-tail and we can't all sell premium stuff. I've only been in business 2 years but I've found a way to compete without e-tailing anything. Here's an example.

Price on 30 lb. Carib Sea sugar size aragamax.

DFS $17.99+ $4.50 shipping
Other LFS here $45
My price $19.95

Where do you think locals are going to buy it? That's right I keep the money here in my city. Yes I might have to sell 8 bags to the one bag the other lfs is selling, but I bet I sell 20 to 1 or more and I keep people here in my store and the money here locally.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think books are going to be obsolete anytime soon.

 

[naesco]

Sus

Like most newbies you got started into the hobby through a LFS and got ripped off by one until you joined the boards and found out what is going on.

While your comments on hardware may be accurate, that is not true for livestock.

Even at the poorest LFS you have an opportunity to closely inspect the fish and coral and determine its origin and even possibly negotiate its price.

Online retailers do not give you that opportunity. You are buying sight unseen and if the price is too good to be true it is probably one of those cyanide caught fish from the Philippines or Indonesia that are imported in by the tonnes and sold online to unsuspecting hobbyists.
As MaryM has pointed out on several occasions, many, even some of the 'best' online vendors, are guilty of false advertising from claims that they are net caught, cyanide free or from the IndoPacific. (readPI)

The LFS remains the only rational choice for quality fish and coral. You just have to find the store that treats you like a customer.

There are loser LFS' but the boards are full of online horror stories of missed shipments, DOA, online fraud and misrepresentation.
When it comes to livestock, trust your eyes.

 

[clarionreef]

Jeff,
Waynes right. The simple math of easily reproduceable dry goods does not compute with highly variable, seasonal, controversial and limited livestock.
What the big ticket dealers have done...be they chain stores or etailers is apply the formula for industrialized products to...wildlife.
For better, more assured quality , its best to eyeball the fish first...and deal with dealers who actually know as much about quality control as the simpler art of merchandising.
To make sure you're not putting your money into the cyanide trade, its best to find and support dealers who actually care as much about the marine environment as the simpler art of merchandising it.
Selling, self service and survival is just business...so the challenge is to find people who have developed the capacity to take it futher and give service with a clear conscience.
You choose who you deal with...like you choose who you may marry. Choose poorly and consistantly...and bitterness and failure await you.
That is a fate you must also take responsibility for as ultimately ours is very much a buyer beware culture...isn't it?
People uniting to try and make things more fair, civilized and sustainable in this trade will naturally make mistakes and reveal inconsistancies as they go forth. It is the caring for something bigger then the self however that will lead them to adjust, evolve and improve.
All belief systems are flawed...but few so flawed as that of those who believe in nothing but the self.
Steve



Steve

 

[Fish World1]

I don't think books are going to be obsolete anytime soon.

No, but the way books are sold sure has changed. I couldn't stand to try to read a book on the internet (although some of these threads are like novels) :lol:

Wayne and Steve,

You are both correct in the case of livestock. There is a lot of merit in a united group of LFS, but the truth is that a lot of LFS are going to have to change their business practices or go out of business. I don't look at my fish or corals as dollar signs. I've refused to sell fish or corals to certain people because it had no chance to survive. Some go someplace else and buy, it some appreciate my honesty. It's the latter that become good customers of mine. I just had a customer of mine give me a box of 10 16oz. porterhouse steaks yesterday. He gave one to me and one to my partner. He did it because of all the help we've given him with setup to stocking. He used to go to a store who had him setup completly wrong and would sell him anything to make a sale. Needless to say he lost a lot of stuff.

Steve,

I do buy from people I believe to care about the marine enviornmet. Does Mary say all her fish are net caught anymore? No, but she still cares about what she sells and there is a difference in her fish and some of the other companies out there.