Role of the Internet in the Marine Ornamentals trade.

[clarionreef]

Coral stories;
HERES ANOTHER ONE;
Coral reefs used to ring Bali and the gentle waves of the North shore allowed for impressive fields of 3-5 foot wide acroporas. These acroporas stretched from the West end to the East end of Bali and made for a continuous 100 mile long reef of them.
Those acroporas are still there. Only laying dead on the bottom. My concern for the reefs of Bali has not to do with the product Kalk speaks of but the real reef that provided cover for food fish, tourist fish and of course...aquarium fish.
As nature abhors a vacuum [except in the space between Kalks ears] it re-seeds on top of the acro-plates and strives to re-establish itself.
Farm and frag by all means. But don't pretend that a fist size acro replaces a century old acro 'tree'.
Steve
PS. I think Mike Kirda should go to Bali and try to find a single live mature acro left standing. You may have to dive for a long time, but you might find one.

 

[mkirda]

PS. I think Mike Kirda should go to Bali and try to find a single live mature acro left standing. You may have to dive for a long time, but you might find one.

Steve,

I've been to Bali, but didn't dive there. However, I did go out snorkelling out in front of our hotel at Nusa Dua. You could see how many people glean the reef flat. You could find aggregations of urchins munching on turtle grass, destroying it. You could find some sediment-tolerant LPS here and there. Chocolate chip Starfish? I can't tell you how many I accidently stepped on... Dozens.

Acros? Not a single one.

Granted, this is like snorkelling off Cancun and generalizing to the entire Yucatan, but my experience mimics yours. Take it for what it is worth.

Tukang Besi, OTOH... Table corals the size of 1970's era Oldsmobile Delta 98's... And the occasional blast fishing craters about the same size...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[blue hula]

With so many cultured coral coming out of Bali, Steve, is going to have an increasingly difficult time making up stories about the trade harming the reefs of Bali. I have seen hundreds of boxes this year and not one acro colony which was a broken Fragment.ONLY INTACT SMALL COLONIES.... With the exception of montipora Capricornus.......

Kalk ... I have yet to see a fisherman chasing corals with a squirt bottle. Gosh those acropora move fast ... jam themselves right up amongst the damsels.

Culturing corals would only take SOME of the pressure off reefs if it replaced wild collection of coral. That collectors targeting FISH still squirt corals because the fish are IN the corals. Culturing corals doesn't do anything for this problem.

What evidence do you have that corals are getting less hammered by cyanide squirting fish collectors than pre Suiss farm????

My professional guess is that pressure on the reefs in Bali has increased. What do you think all those Balinese who used to work in the tourism industry are doing post Bali-bombing?

Fishing ... "the occupation of last resort" ... and some of that will be aquarium collecting ... and lots of that will be juice based as ... gee, they don't have nets.

And by the way, how do you know the corals are from Bali? Bali is simply the entrepot. Exporters send boats further and further afield to collect as they clean out nearby areas. I have that as fact.

Blue hula

 

[blue hula]

ZBT,

The frustration that spills over is not the sole domain of the conservation minded importer.

As an ecologist who worked in the region for years, I get really tired of hearing:

LFS owners saying "what can I do ... I need to make a living and hobbyists don't care"

Importers saying "what can I do ... the hobbyists only want cheap"

Exporters saying "what can I do ... the importers only want cheap"

Hobbyists saying "what can I do ... nothing else is available ... besides, my LFS says it wasn't cyanide caught"

Hobbyists saying "what can I do as one sole individual"

MAC saying we have certified this area as sustainable so feel good about these fish (despite the fact that the area in question is highly degraded)

Nutbars saying "what's the big deal of removing a few fish from the reef .. food fisheries take lots more"

No personal offense meant but your theme smacks a bit of "well, I pay highend and my LFS tells me it's ok so therefore don't hold me responsible."

I do hold you (collectively) responsible. Hobbyists are as much responsible for the use of cyanide as the exporters and importers who traffic in it ... and the reefs suffer. Use your bucks wisely and engage. Understand that standing up to the trade is exhausting .. and yes, may leave one a little edgy.

When I read your post, I had an image of the john caught with a 13 year old girl ... but your honour ... the pimp said she was 16 ... and really, he's to blame for supplying her in the first place.

Sorry if you perceive this as a swipe ... I am sincere and would encourage you to stand up and be counted.

Blue hula

 

[Kalkbreath]

Steve did mention that in the areas that have been converted in the last few years, are now full of perfect aquarium sized corals (regrowth) growing all over the dead skeletons. Kalk, cyanide is rampant in Indo, whether you believe it or not.

Yah, those corals are soooo much easier to net after you juice them. :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Man, I had to come back and look at that pic again. and ask, hundreads of boxes this year? You personally have seen hundreads of boxes of Bali this last month (year) alone?

Sure , you want to buy some? limit is five per week per company.I saw twenty this week.....not all Acros .....but all from BALI....... See, you really have no idea who I am ......

 

[Kalkbreath]

Coral stories;
HERES ANOTHER ONE;
Coral reefs used to ring Bali and the gentle waves of the North shore allowed for impressive fields of 3-5 foot wide acroporas. These acroporas stretched from the West end to the East end of Bali and made for a continuous 100 mile long reef of them.
Those acroporas are still there. Only laying dead on the bottom. My concern for the reefs of Bali has not to do with the product Kalk speaks of but the real reef that provided cover for food fish, tourist fish and of course...aquarium fish.
As nature abhors a vacuum [except in the space between Kalks ears] it re-seeds on top of the acro-plates and strives to re-establish itself.
Farm and frag by all means. But don't pretend that a fist size acro replaces a century old acro 'tree'.
Steve
PS. I think Mike Kirda should go to Bali and try to find a single live mature acro left standing. You may have to dive for a long time, but you might find one.

Are you suggesting coral collectors are harming the reefs ?

 

[Kalkbreath]

With so many cultured coral coming out of Bali, Steve, is going to have an increasingly difficult time making up stories about the trade harming the reefs of Bali. I have seen hundreds of boxes this year and not one acro colony which was a broken Fragment.ONLY INTACT SMALL COLONIES.... With the exception of montipora Capricornus.......

Kalk ... I have yet to see a fisherman chasing corals with a squirt bottle. Gosh those acropora move fast ... jam themselves right up amongst the damsels.

Culturing corals would only take SOME of the pressure off reefs if it replaced wild collection of coral. That collectors targeting FISH still squirt corals because the fish are IN the corals. Culturing corals doesn't do anything for this problem.

What evidence do you have that corals are getting less hammered by cyanide squirting fish collectors than pre Suiss farm????

My professional guess is that pressure on the reefs in Bali has increased. What do you think all those Balinese who used to work in the tourism industry are doing post Bali-bombing?

Fishing ... "the occupation of last resort" ... and some of that will be aquarium collecting ... and lots of that will be juice based as ... gee, they don't have nets.

And by the way, how do you know the corals are from Bali? Bali is simply the entrepot. Exporters send boats further and further afield to collect as they clean out nearby areas. I have that as fact.

Blue hula

Because there are only two collectors in Bali And if Jakarta had thses type of ultra corals they would not send them to other collectors ... I cant find these types of corals any where else ................ even the collector in Bali's sister a collector in Jakarta ,cant come up with these special Bali strain of corals........There is a lot of fish mixing in Bali but very little coral mixing .

 

[flameangel1]

With all due respect, the comments here may not be appreciated by our moderater,
who has commented that he doesnt particularily want us "old timers" to keep posting in this forum.
But, this topic is one that needs to hear from us .

Steve, Blue Hula, KEEP on harping on the villagers needs and what is going on at the collection sites !!!!!!!!!
Maybe in enough years, if you keep this topic in FRONT of people,
some of them will listen. It is IMPERATIVE that they do !!!!

To the "gentleman" who was bragging about his $150.00 cultured Bali acro's,
and high priced whistles and bells that he wants us to keep in stock--
well, I do not stock acro's as every man and his brother cultivates them !!!!! If people get them via trading and FREE,
why would I want to pull them from the ocean and waste valuable real estate and "stock money", to have them sit here for a year or so ???
As to " cheap softies"- Softies are real animals, beautiful, easy to propagate and for beginners to keep. You may be rich and know what you are doing, but many people are not and do not.
I would far sooner see them keep animals that will LIVE,
and that they can afford !!!
Acro's are easy to propagate and keep,
but their needs are beyond many peoples budgets to supply.

That same gentleman wants us to stock the high priced dry goods ??? Well, as a hobbyist, he does not realize that most of us can not buy that stuff any cheaper than he can ,
and we also pay the shipping he does too. Are we to SELL it at our cost ??? Also, as the hobbyist does not see the shipping as part of the cost, to equal the e-tailers "price",
you want us to " eat" the shipping and sell at his price-right ???

As to the internet e-sellers and how it affects us LFS.
IT HURTS US-plain and simple !!!
The average hobbyist will buy CHEAP and so will the "upper crust" hobbyist. I spend hours explaining what it takes to keep a reef tank and what each component is needed for, etc etc etc,
and the hobbyist will still want CHEAP !!
They just take the information- go buy on the internet and then come to me for how to use it or how to "fix" the sick animals because they bought the cheaper version of what I explained to them.
My time and experience means little to them.
But, I have to pay my overhead costs,to keep the shop open ,
to GIVE freely, that experienced information !!

Any former hobbyist who buys/owns a real brick and morter store , would change his/her tune when they learn about the "industry behind the hobby" for real !!!!

 

[clarionreef]

Well put Judy,
But alas....the search for livestock on the web seems to have supplanted interest in the search for it in the field where the fisherman live and struggle to make a living.
The real coral reefs are where these fisherman live and so it logically follows that their fates are entwined. Woven correctly, the answers to reef protection and fishermans welfare could become one and the same.
There are exciting possibilities in this area.
Trends in evidence here however suggest an aversion to the fishermans plight and an aversion to the development of sustained field strategies.

1] The internet and 'direct to retail' and transhipping strategies work to cheapen the product enough to lower prices in the very face of scarcer product! 'Cutting the fisherman in on the deal' is important for some while exporters feel more cheap market pressure to marginalize him as much as possible.
Environmental importers [ compassionate, idealistic and self handicapping ] pay more money for less variety and suffer market loss as a result and stay small...and with little clout. [The amatuer-like field trainings by non aquarium NGOs have kept net-caught variety small.]]

2] This lessening of clout has caused a shift to the less socially and environmentally consciencious big importers in the strategies of the current reform saviour...MAC and as a result the big guys advantages will
increase futher.
The "follow the truth ethic has given way to a follow the money" one. Normally this would seem simple whitewashing by industry types and readily seen for what it is...oil companies do it, timber companies do it...Monsanto, Dow and Arco used Cousteau Society to do it etc. but in our case the validation of the campaign by major funding foundations and US AID has been a huge blow to getting the problem solved.
Why solve it in the field...if the new way is to do it from the top down without even descending from Mt. Olympus to check out the real story? Failed did it? { Welll, we're so far removed, we don't see that. Besides, funding gets approved on paperwork, not field reality}
It would appear that "the welfare of innocents"that Horge so elegantly put in another thread is the concern of the equally innocent environmental aquarist and thinker....but not of funders and the reform firm they have created in their image.
But...this subject matter has far less appeal then the search for cheap coral reef products to covet...at internet prices now does it. [ My favorite is the 10 corals for $100. one seen in the FAMA ads!]
If the trade deserves to be saved, it may have to in spite of itself.
Steve

 

[JennM]

Well put, Judy and Steve. Judy, you summed up many of my thoughts to a tee, especially the part about "investing" many hours in enlightening folks, only to have them spend elsewhere, then call on you to save the day when $&!% happens.

zbt, you've got quite a lot to learn about the LFS business. Perhaps you are only looking at things through the "elitist" eyes and not the "general hobbyist" eyes.

You suggested I set up elaborate SPS systems etc... well I have 1/3 of my entire coral section geared up to SPS and clams. When I first opened, and as soon as my system could handle SPS corals, I bought a bunch of 'em. Kept a lot of them for a very long time, while people bought mushrooms (many aquacultured), colts, leathers, bubble corals, and the like. Those corals turn over and over and over, and only a few SPS. I came out of the gate with a list of some 350 customers and an email newsletter so they were well advertised and promoted, but the REALITY is, the majority of people are middle-range hobbyists. I outfit them appropriately for their likes, and proceed from there. I've got SPS in my main (personal) display...

I've got a local manufacturer of high-end MH lighting and my personal display and all 24 feet of coral retail display are lit with them, so the customer can SEE the products in use. Ironically that manufacturer sells direct to hobbyists so most often I have the customer contact him directly - since he doesn't sell anything but lighting, I'm not in any danger of losing "other" sales to him. He does something specific, does it in with excellence, so I don't need to. For those who don't want to have that much lighting, I offer up a selection of more mainstream products.

It's so easy for you to sit back and tell us how to run the shop.. I'm a hobbyist first, and I've tried to offer up what hobbyists want.. AND do it as cleanly as possible, given the current options available. I'm not going to sit here and defend myself, I must be doing something right, we recently expanded our store to twice it's previous size.

Bad stores only will stay in business if people keep supporting them. How many times have I seen somebody post, "I rescued this today from the LFS, they SOLD it to me for $XXX). Well that just lets them buy another to replace the hapless specimen you felt so sorry for.. then the next poor sap will buy it, and so on.

If people were that disgusted that they just stopped shopping there, they wouldn't take 10 years to disappear...

OH and my importer receives corals from one place, and fishes from several other places... they re-uses the boxes. Just because you see a box with a name or a place on it, doesn't mean the contents within, came from that same place. Many wholesalers re-use boxes, so seeing stuff on boxes proves nothing.

It doesn't take me too long to figure out who the bargain hunters are, and who the genuine customers are. I've also learned to invest a lot more time and energy into those who take initiative to educate themselves, instead of those who go from place to place til somebody tells them what they want to hear. I like to discuss *with* my customers, not just talk "to" them...big diffrence.

And as to special order stuff... I've never had somebody that anxious to have a high-end piece of equipment "right now" that couldn't wait a couple of days for it to arrive. Whether it's from me or from an etailer.. if I can offer a competitive price, it's to the customer's advantage to get it from me, then they can come to me when they need after-sales service... if not, I don't begrudge somebody saving a few bucks on a particular piece of equipiment - it's only common sense.

Jenn

 

[flameangel1]

Jenn,
I really laughed over your starting out with a bunch of Acro's !!
Yep, I did the same thing and yep,they did not sell either !!
Finally sold most at BELOW what I paid for them,
just to have the tank space for what DOES sell..
Now only carry a few that came in on trade (aquacultured) ,
but,
the back wall of my 135 gallon reef ready tank, is half covered with a Pavona and a Hydenophora!!!!
(growing right ON the back wall)
And NO ONE even notices them until I point them out -LOL !!!!
Now, if a real Acro afficionado came into my shop looking for SPS corals, dont you think they would notice them ???

 

[JennM]

I had the exact same discussion with another retailer on the south side of this region... he is an extreme hobbyist turned retailer too, and he did the same thing. We had a good chuckle at the airport one day as we picked up our stuff... he did the same thing, got in all kinds of nice acros/SPS... many of those hobbyists prefer to spend $10-20 on a frag, instead of $70+ and up on a colony.

I trade in frags for store credit, and I buy ORA frags, they've got some nice stuff when you can get it... and I bring in the occasional colony that somebody sees on my wholesaler's website, if I can get it... but I still have a lot of stuff that I brought in on spec that didn't move. Some colonies have doubled in size...

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

...As an ecologist who worked in the region for years, I get really tired of hearing:

LFS owners saying "what can I do ... I need to make a living and hobbyists don't care"

Importers saying "what can I do ... the hobbyists only want cheap"

Exporters saying "what can I do ... the importers only want cheap"

Hobbyists saying "what can I do ... nothing else is available ... besides, my LFS says it wasn't cyanide caught"

Hobbyists saying "what can I do as one sole individual"

MAC saying we have certified this area as sustainable so feel good about these fish (despite the fact that the area in question is highly degraded)

Nutbars saying "what's the big deal of removing a few fish from the reef .. food fisheries take lots more"

No personal offense meant but your theme smacks a bit of "well, I pay highend and my LFS tells me it's ok so therefore don't hold me responsible."

I do hold you (collectively) responsible. Hobbyists are as much responsible for the use of cyanide as the exporters and importers who traffic in it ... and the reefs suffer. Use your bucks wisely and engage. Understand that standing up to the trade is exhausting .. and yes, may leave one a little edgy.

When I read your post, I had an image of the john caught with a 13 year old girl ... but your honour ... the pimp said she was 16 ... and really, he's to blame for supplying her in the first place.

Sorry if you perceive this as a swipe ... I am sincere and would encourage you to stand up and be counted.

Blue hula

Blue Hula:

I've waited the mandatory 2 week cool-off period before posting to this thread. While I am starting to understand much of reason for frustration the quote above shows an utter contempt for the hobbyist. Why not just simplify things and say that the hobby should be closed down outright? Maybe I might even agree that if things don't change significantly the hobby should be closed down.

BUT - the blame should not be placed primarily at the hobbyists' feet. Those that spend the money on livestock have been aggrieved by continuous lies from most of industry for a long, long time. How many people would pay money for animals that they knew had been captured via poison? Not me. Not most of the people that I know, either. Most have been led to believe that animal death is entirely due to their own shortcomings – the possibility of previous poisoning is almost never mentioned at the LFS.

On another topic, I'm happy that MAC is starting a certification program. Even if the certification may lack intrinsic value it will cause those that visit stores to ask: "why do the fish in some tanks have a certification while those in other tanks do not have certification?" In other words, certification begs the question "why is certification needed?"

Informed hobbyists are so concerned about ecological/ethical issues that they are spending their money to send representation to both MO '04 and USCRTF meetings. Hobbyists donated a fair hunk of change to the MSI netting fund last year, as well. I spent a fair hunk of change placing only captive bred fish in my tank. This very forum exists at a website that was created by and for hobbyists. In fact, Reefs.Org's mission statement says in part: "...Our primary mission is the fostering of responsible hobbyists through education..."

Just sign me as another hobbyist:
Lee Morey
V.P. - MASNA

 

[jamesw]

Good post Lee.

I'll be footing my own bill to get to Hawaii for the MO '04 conference - no small chunk of change.

Cheers
James Wiseman
www.reefs.org

 

[clarionreef]

Lee,
Just a tip...
Even conservatives in Canada seem liberal by our standards.
I regard Blue Hulas remarks with zero defensiveness even though she torched the industry types as well. Why?
Why? Because I relize that not all grass is green, not all hobbyists are so tight and stingy they squeak, not all retailers are 'cheap stuff first...coral reefs last' and not all importers are without souls.
Why feel defensive if most are irresponsible but not the unrepresentative 'you.'
Responsible people have shed blood, sweat and tears over this issue and a great deal more you might imagine. Try and see the sincere reform elements that exists as your allies and cohorts in this difficult and complicated movement and not criticise them so much. If you ally w/ none your efforts will be even more watered down.
Constructive criticism is healthy and I for one welcome it.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

If Blue was not on target,
the industry would not have come to this in the first place.
The truth of this matter has been published for over 20 years and remains a minority opinion, a dangerous struggle and a movement hobbyists and business people alike wish would go away...with or without real deeds in the field.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I'll be footing my own bill to get to Hawaii for the MO '04 conference - no small chunk of change.

James,

Your monetary sacrifice has not gone unnoticed. Also, the outlay of time and effort that you and the RDO moderators expend on this bulletin board hasn't gone unnoticed. My sincerest thanks go out to you and the moderators for it all.

I notice at least three people that I consider to be hobbyists that are speaking at MO '04. I'm certain that all three are, at least in part, footing the cost of participation. I'm indebted to you all.

Sincerely,
Lee

 

[Anonymous]

...As an ecologist who worked in the region for years, I get really tired of hearing:

LFS owners saying "what can I do ... I need to make a living and hobbyists don't care"

Importers saying "what can I do ... the hobbyists only want cheap"

Exporters saying "what can I do ... the importers only want cheap"

Hobbyists saying "what can I do ... nothing else is available ... besides, my LFS says it wasn't cyanide caught"

Hobbyists saying "what can I do as one sole individual"

MAC saying we have certified this area as sustainable so feel good about these fish (despite the fact that the area in question is highly degraded)

Nutbars saying "what's the big deal of removing a few fish from the reef .. food fisheries take lots more"

No personal offense meant but your theme smacks a bit of "well, I pay highend and my LFS tells me it's ok so therefore don't hold me responsible."

I do hold you (collectively) responsible. Hobbyists are as much responsible for the use of cyanide as the exporters and importers who traffic in it ... and the reefs suffer. Use your bucks wisely and engage. Understand that standing up to the trade is exhausting .. and yes, may leave one a little edgy.

When I read your post, I had an image of the john caught with a 13 year old girl ... but your honour ... the pimp said she was 16 ... and really, he's to blame for supplying her in the first place.

Sorry if you perceive this as a swipe ... I am sincere and would encourage you to stand up and be counted.

Blue hula

Blue Hula:

I've waited the mandatory 2 week cool-off period before posting to this thread. While I am starting to understand much of reason for frustration the quote above shows an utter contempt for the hobbyist. Why not just simplify things and say that the hobby should be closed down outright?

The hobby should be closed down outright.

 

[Kalkbreath]

I guess that would include ending the use of marine organisms for scientific research..{another form of hobby]....{no more applying lipstick to seahorses]....So what would you do with all the new free time Galleon?